1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

[Oboro]

Early Impression of Teirs...

Mastering Manji Carve Fist from standing makes Yoshi 100% more effective than not being able to use it. It's a 10 frame or less crouching attack that combos for a third of your opponents life on CH. He's got frame traps for it on block and you can nail so many people with it trying to pressure you on wakes making them more cautious of you getting up.

Also his lows are punishable but most of them link to doorknocker which are good for 60 ish damage. Yoshi's mix ups are weaker but his combos are mega damaging this time. Also Manji Carve Fist is the best move in the game. The JF version's stun is unbreakable and leads in the 22B, 3A,B, a:B+K, 66B combo.

Yoshi is awesome this time. Top 5 for sure.

 

[KoshTheKoala]

Early Impression of Teirs...

Manji Carve Fist? What's the input for it? (I don't know anyone who actually uses the names for moves except rainbow drop.)

 

[Archangel]

Early Impression of Teirs...

Cirex - There was a reason that Nightmare's 66B in SC2 was one of the best moves in the game. ;)

Not after everybody figured out that it was easily steppable, it wasn't.

Oh, also: Spelling error fixed. I'm a grammar freak, so I couldn't stand it. :)

 

[Oboro]

Early Impression of Teirs...

Manji Carve Fist? What's the input for it? (I don't know anyone who actually uses the names for moves except rainbow drop.)

2a:B. When a move is as buff as the Manji Carve Fist, you call the son of a bitch by name!!

 

[ChaCha]

My early Tiers: BASED ON OBSERVED COMPETATIVE PLAY AND APPLICATION. Gimmicks matter right now, as to overbearing high/low/throw mix up games as few will adjust to them early on. I will try to explain each tier allocation.

A: (top) exceptional qualities, saftey, oki, soul gauge abuse and damage

Amy
Sophitia
Yoshimitsu
Cassandra

B: (upper)- Great damage, pressure, mix up game and safety or soul gauge abuse

Lizardman
Mitsurugi
Taki
Siegfried
Raphael


C: (upper mid) solid on damage, pressure, safety, some gimmicks to early abuse

Xianghua
Talim
Cervantes
Algol
Kilik
Setsuka
Ivy

D: (mid) no overbearing features, but solid damage and set ups, reasonable safety/range, often gimmick dependant, lacking at least one major requisite of those above them.

Astaroth
Voldo
Tira
Zasalamel
Nightmare
Yun
Maxi

E: (lower mid) gimmick depenant, poor damage and set ups, no outstanding positives to outweigh negatives

The Apprentice
Darth Vader
Seong Mina
Hilde

F: (bottom tier) huge negatives, inconsistant damage, subpar when compared to peers

Rock
Yoda

==============================================

Discuss. Sure a few could be moved a notch down, but right now I have arguably play more competative matches offline and online than just about anyone, and these are my observations that have held true so far.

cha cha

 

[CrazyYoshimitsu]

Ok, what about Mr. Overlord Algol? I saying high tier or around the bottom of high tier.

 

[BlackDragon37]

Where does Maxi stand in the tier list?

 

[ChaCha]

sorry deleted maxi when editing. He is back now.

 

[Syxx]

Early Impression of Teirs...

1. Amy - Have you played as her? Her A+k B unblockable is ridiculous. Her B+K K auto GI into launcher is too good. She's incredibly fast, doesn't have to stop attacking, and has some amazing strings.

These are some good reasons but I think the main reasons why she's in the top tiers is because of her 6BB, 33B, 6:6B, and 44B. All you need to do is fill in the rest with whatever safe moves that she has (to catch them from stepping, whatever). It is entirely up to the player. Her moves have evasive properties and most importantly she has mobility in a game where moving around can be difficult. She can ring out from a moderate distance from the edge with 33B or the BnB combo that follows it. Her mixup game is great, not having to rely on generic mixup strings that many characters have. If you know the correct moves to use, you can bust up their soul gadge a little bit along the way, but many of the moves are unsafe.


As far as her disadvantages go, sometimes she can have trouble getting in on people, without risking a whiff or a duck. She has a very short throw range. The range of her AA and BB are below average. You can actually whiff the second hit of BB when punishing. She only has 2 moves that leave her at an advantage on block, but this isn't that different than many other characters. Also her damage output isn't that great on her basic moves and even throws, which generally do less when compared to the other high tier characters. Furthermore, she doesn't have any lows that are hard to read that do enough damage to make your opponent want to duck (short of 3BA). To play her properly, I really believe that the 6:6B just frame needs to be mastered.

But dispite the disadvantages, her advantages are enough to push her into high tier. Even as the game evolves I just can't see her getting pushed from the top as her good stuff just isn't gimicky and she's safe after her good moves.

 

[CrazyYoshimitsu]

My early Tiers: BASED ON OBSERVED COMPETATIVE PLAY AND APPLICATION. Gimmicks matter right now, as to overbearing high/low/throw mix up games as few will adjust to them early on. I will try to explain each tier allocation.

A: (top) exceptional qualities, saftey, oki, soul gauge abuse and damage

Amy
Sophitia
Yoshimitsu
Cassandra

B: (upper)- Great damage, pressure, mix up game and safety or soul gauge abuse

Lizardman
Mitsurugi
Taki
Siegfried
Raphael


C: (upper mid) solid on damage, pressure, safety, some gimmicks to early abuse

Xianghua
Talim
Cervantes
Algol
Kilik
Setsuka
Ivy

D: (mid) no overbearing features, but solid damage and set ups, reasonable safety/range, often gimmick dependant, lacking at least one major requisite of those above them.

Astaroth
Voldo
Tira
Zasalamel
Nightmare
Yun
Maxi

E: (lower mid) gimmick depenant, poor damage and set ups, no outstanding positives to outweigh negatives

The Apprentice
Darth Vader
Seong Mina
Hilde

F: (bottom tier) huge negatives, inconsistant damage, subpar when compared to peers

Rock
Yoda

==============================================

Discuss. Sure a few could be moved a notch down, but right now I have arguably play more competative matches offline and online than just about anyone, and these are my observations that have held true so far.

cha cha

I have three questions about your list Mr.Cha.

1. Did you place Ivy c tier with the inf or without it?
2. Why do you think Tali mis upper Mid?
3. And why do you think Algol is in the millde of the tier list to?

 

[joulisians]

Early Impression of Teirs...

I think it's too early to get exact numbers in, but I think we can place people into like:

Tier 0 (god)
Ivy (with infinite)

You missed out the spamable-heat-seeking-mid-ultimate-tracking-at-100%-fully-chargable-UB-move WP 6+B

This move pawns Sophitia's 236B ANYTIME

 

[tribaL]

My early Tiers: BASED ON OBSERVED COMPETATIVE PLAY AND APPLICATION. Gimmicks matter right now, as to overbearing high/low/throw mix up games as few will adjust to them early on. I will try to explain each tier allocation.

A: (top) exceptional qualities, saftey, oki, soul gauge abuse and damage

Amy
Sophitia
Yoshimitsu
Cassandra

Discuss. Sure a few could be moved a notch down, but right now I have arguably play more competative matches offline and online than just about anyone, and these are my observations that have held true so far.

cha cha

that's funny because i haven't played many characters in-depth except these 4 and i've been thinking that they're really damned good.

either that or i'm just that lucky.

i think yoshi is much better than ppl make him out to be just in general. if he's not top he's upper mid (imo).

realistically speaking, in sc2 he was a solid upper-mid tier character. in sc3 most of the cast was largely ignored because, let's face it, the game kinda sucked. however, now in sc4 he's retained quite a few effective moves that he already had from sc2.

3ab can STILL be hit-checked for a launcher into juggle. 1aaa still seems really solid as a tool up-close. his lows, while not safe, offer a lot of great potential in terms of okizeme and dmg (214a, 6a+b,b,b,b, 3b_throw for the techers). his front ro game is still amazing: 214a, 66k, 22_88k, soldier roll (doesnt track anymore though). his ub's are still as effective as they were before.

the guy can still be played safely and effectively. yea he can't be spammed all day like sc3 soph and x could be; it takes a bit of knowledge to use him. maybe he's not the "TOP OMG TIER" but he's at least solid upper-mid (IMO!!!).

that's all i gots to shay bout dat.


EDIT:

i think the most important thing about the characters overall is that with this iteration of sc it doesn't seem like there's, as of yet, a glaringly over-powered character. yes, the game is still new, and things need to be fleshed out, but i hold some optimism.


ivy's infinite doesn't count because: a.) you do it online = disconnect. b.) you do it in tournament = forfeit. c.) you do it against friends = ass beating.

 

[SkatanMilla]

B: (upper)- Great damage, pressure, mix up game and safety or soul gauge abuse

Taki

E: (lower mid) gimmick depenant, poor damage and set ups, no outstanding positives to outweigh negatives

Hilde

 

[Belial]

this list got Rock right!

 

[RedDjinn]

Early Impression of Teirs...

2a:B. When a move is as buff as the Manji Carve Fist, you call the son of a bitch by name!!

Better listen to my man, haha he knows what hes talking about....

and ChaCha's list seems to be fairly accurate.... I do believe its one of the best ive seen... Although I still think Yoshi is top tier.... If you could do all his just frames, just frame heal moves, suicide heals, JF guard breaks, Just frames off the guard impact moves, ManjiCarveFist, EarSlicer, jesus the list goes on and on, he can sit down heal hisself, teleport, take 90 percent of your life away with more than one move, Has Auto gi's into combos, has teleport into 110 life damage into Big JF heal.... Seriously the only way you couldnt say he isnt top is if you just dont know what he can really do...

 

[tribaL]

Early Impression of Teirs...

Better listen to my man, haha he knows what hes talking about....

and ChaCha's list seems to be fairly accurate.... I do believe its one of the best ive seen... Although I still think Yoshi is top tier.... If you could do all his just frames, just frame heal moves, suicide heals, JF guard breaks, Just frames off the guard impact moves, ManjiCarveFist, EarSlicer, jesus the list goes on and on, he can sit down heal hisself, teleport, take 90 percent of your life away with more than one move, Has Auto gi's into combos, has teleport into 110 life damage into Big JF heal.... Seriously the only way you couldnt say he isnt top is if you just dont know what he can really do...

most of that stuff is parlor trick at best.

2aB is good, but you CAN shake the stun so that nothing is guaranteed. just an fyi. im not saying it's a bad move, but it's not THAT godly if people know to shake the stun.

as a matter of fact, most of yoshi's stuns can be shaken out of. kind of dissapointing, but it makes sense seeing as his potential dmg post stun is pretty damned good.

 

[RedDjinn]

Early Impression of Teirs...

most of that stuff is parlor trick at best.

2aB is good, but you CAN shake the stun so that nothing is guaranteed. just an fyi. im not saying it's a bad move, but it's not THAT godly if people know to shake the stun.

as a matter of fact, most of yoshi's stuns can be shaken out of. kind of dissapointing, but it makes sense seeing as his potential dmg post stun is pretty damned good.

2a:b cannot be shaken... you should probably not talk because i can tell you arent a high level yoshimitsu.... aight??

and those parlor tricks are yoshis butter, if you know how when and where to use them... they are more than a trick,

Stop telling people things you dont know for sure because you kinda make yourself look bad when you think you know it all and you've been playing seriously for a month....

 

[Oboro]

I think most of his suicide heals are to tight to rely on consistantly but it's a nice perk for a move that is a fast UB that takes about half a life bar. He's great and best of all he's super fun to use. Easily the most fun character with a large and functional move list.

Also, you can't shake the JF version of MCF from standing. Only the FC version of it. I never do that one. Unless I wanna catch them after a blocked standing MCF. Either way the 22B follow up is fairly safe so throw it out there on either version. 22B's stun is unshakable and you follow it up with a massive combo, that does 80 ish damage and can ring out from 2 character lengths away.

 

[RedDjinn]

I think most of his suicide heals are to tight to rely on consistantly but it's a nice perk for a move that is a fast UB that takes about half a life bar. He's great and best of all he's super fun to use. Easily the most fun character with a large and functional move list.

Of course i wouldnt rely on them but i'm simply saying if one could master everything yoshi has to offer hes easily the best person in the game....

 

[Oboro]

For sure. If you're a robot you just throw out suicides and heal off of them all day to be a prick!!