Future online tourney ideas.

Wandrian

Wandrian

I don't know.
Why not, right? Well, here's my take on it, stolen from something I'd participated in ages ago and inspired to post sooner by Hyrul. Damn you, Hyrul.

-Round robin style, seasonal format
-best of 3 sets
-points awarded: 1 point per match, 2 per set(no modifiers for perfects/RO/DKO/TO)
-top players have a short finals mini-tourney with best of 5 set to determine a "winner" of the season
-Devil Jin allowed, but only with TO-specificed parts(such as say the "Samurai" gear)
-no transcontinental play to minimize lag issues


I'm not sure how many matches a week would be good though, that's the only thing I'm uncertain of.

I understand the controversy of Devil Jin, but with a specific CAS setup to allow it most of the issues can be solved because everyone would have the option of playing as and against the moveset without any of the complaints. Just as recolors are allowed in most tourneys, the same could also be done to Devil Jin so in the highly unlikely event of a DJ mirror there wouldn't be any confusion as to which player was which. And if that's still too hard to swallow, remember that it's online rather than offline.
 
I'd just like 3 out of 5 for future online tournies. 2 out of 3 feels way too short especially when we're not looking at the time constraints that an on site tourney has to deal with.
 
Marginal said:
I'd just like 3 out of 5 for future online tournies. 2 out of 3 feels way too short especially when we're not looking at the time constraints that an on site tourney has to deal with.
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I'd be willing to do this for the next tourney. I basically just did it this way because that's what the 8wr tournament rules are, but we don't have to stick to that for online, especially with our longish deadlines.

I doubt anyone would have a problem with it.
 
Marginal said:
I'd just like 3 out of 5 for future online tournies. 2 out of 3 feels way too short especially when we're not looking at the time constraints that an on site tourney has to deal with.
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This would be fine. I wouldnt mind that. I wouldnt wanna stray to far away from the 8wr rules.

Wandrian said:
Why not, right? Well, here's my take on it, stolen from something I'd participated in ages ago and inspired to post sooner by Hyrul. Damn you, Hyrul.

-Round robin style, seasonal format
-best of 3 sets
-points awarded: 1 point per match, 2 per set(no modifiers for perfects/RO/DKO/TO)
-top players have a short finals mini-tourney with best of 5 set to determine a "winner" of the season
-Devil Jin allowed, but only with TO-specificed parts(such as say the "Samurai" gear)
-no transcontinental play to minimize lag issues
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in bold....just no.

not bold....sounds fine
 
I like the Double Elimination we're doing atm. If there is enough support for this in EU too, then I'll consider running the next tournament like that.
 
Round Robins sound like a complete nightmare in terms of organazation and getting people to play thier damn matches. ATM people are still finishing up the 1st week. It would take waaaaaaayyy to long to finish a tourney, when you have other poeple anxious to get into one.
 
Oh god no, lol.

I meant the 3 out of 5 thing lol :P The round robin would drive me insane. I already have someone on holiday atm >.>
 
...No flaming about DJ? I am disappoint. But seriously, no feedback on it at all? No "your idea is bad and you should feel bad" nor "dude that's fucking awesome" and not even a teeny tiny little "meh?"


Also: round robin does take much longer but it's more interesting because obviously everyone fighting everyone results in things being a little bit less predictable. Regular brackets and ladders will end up becoming predictable and less interesting. That's my take anyways.
 
16 player Double Elim means there will be about 30 matches to play until you have a winner.

16 player Round Robin means 15+14+13+12+11+....+1 matches...

Even 8 Man Pools means (7+6+5+4+3+2+1) x2 = 56 Matches.....

So Yeah.
 
Wandrian said:
...No flaming about DJ? I am disappoint. But seriously, no feedback on it at all? No "your idea is bad and you should feel bad" nor "dude that's fucking awesome" and not even a teeny tiny little "meh?"
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Especially in an online tourney, I wouldn't mind fighting against DVJ. For the nay-sayers that go on about hitboxes in CaS..... there are 3 tourney legal characters that have modified reach, damage and collision that is probably worse than CaS sizing: Elysium, Kilik and EdgeMaster. These characters aren't illegal for the same reasons that DVJ is illegal.

Anyway, good to hear everyone had a blast. I hope to be in the next one, but I was afraid work would interfere with this one and I didn't want to hold anyone up.
 
Supa said:
Especially in an online tourney, I wouldn't mind fighting against DVJ. For the nay-sayers that go on about hitboxes in CaS..... there are 3 tourney legal characters that have modified reach, damage and collision that is probably worse than CaS sizing: Elysium, Kilik and EdgeMaster. These characters aren't illegal for the same reasons that DVJ is illegal.

Anyway, good to hear everyone had a blast. I hope to be in the next one, but I was afraid work would interfere with this one and I didn't want to hold anyone up.
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Until a regualtion DJ can be determined by official 8wr/Namco people. I dont wanna fight that fucker. PERIOD!

Its only the first round thats over. We still got 3 to go.

No need to fuel the fire on the DJ thing. Save that for the casuals please.

Wandrian said:
...No flaming about DJ? I am disappoint. But seriously, no feedback on it at all? No "your idea is bad and you should feel bad" nor "dude that's fucking awesome" and not even a teeny tiny little "meh?"


Also: round robin does take much longer but it's more interesting because obviously everyone fighting everyone results in things being a little bit less predictable. Regular brackets and ladders will end up becoming predictable and less interesting. That's my take anyways.
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Theres no need for flaming in certain threads. There are people that can have intelligent conversation.

"Round Robins wouldnt take much longer"???? I dont know what 3rd world country your in but do the math....So much for intelligent conversation. But seriously.....even uganda has calculators
 
A regulation DJ sounds pretty simple to do IMO: male at the suggested height(wasn't it 3?) with all body sliders at 0 and default "Samurai" with the only things legal to change being things that couldn't possibly affect the gameplay(voice/colors/patterns/stickers/thumbnail dealie). A default like that would be very easy to work with because no one would have an excuse for changing anything or claiming to be unable to use the legal equipment set: DJ's style is unlocked at level 5 and the "Samurai" preset is available as soon as you begin the game IIRC. What kind of downside would there be to a laughingly easy default CAS to create with enough clothes for some degree of customization and hitboxes everyone would be accustomed to that bothered using/training against?



Round robin means most players have more matches. That means more chances for snags, players that would otherwise be eliminated have to stick around longer. Combined with point-based standings, it'll make the top player(s)' place more meaningful since it can't be argued that they just simply got lucky with the RNG at Challonge and have to face opponents with styles they otherwise may not---things would be less predictable and more substantial that way. Additionally, a round robin would promote improvement of all players that were committed to it because they wouldn't just be kicked out for losing a couple of a larger number of matches and again the greater variety of playstyles and characters spices things up further.

I think it's just healthier for competition overall. I've seen what happens with ladders and bracket tourneys are just fine, but I really believe the round robin format has a greater potential---especially after seeing it work well before in another competitive community.
 
Nah, we're not gonna do Devil Jin. I don't think it should be much of an issue. Who even mains him anyway?

When 8WR officially recognizes him as tournament legal, I will too.

If I did do a round robin, it would be in addition to the double elimination tourney, not in place of it. I'm considering the idea, but I kinda prefer a ranking ladder series. I think...
 
Wandrian said:
A regulation DJ sounds pretty simple to do IMO: male at the suggested height(wasn't it 3?) with all body sliders at 0 and default "Samurai" with the only things legal to change being things that couldn't possibly affect the gameplay(voice/colors/patterns/stickers/thumbnail dealie). A default like that would be very easy to work with because no one would have an excuse for changing anything or claiming to be unable to use the legal equipment set: DJ's style is unlocked at level 5 and the "Samurai" preset is available as soon as you begin the game IIRC. What kind of downside would there be to a laughingly easy default CAS to create with enough clothes for some degree of customization and hitboxes everyone would be accustomed to that bothered using/training against?



Round robin means most players have more matches. That means more chances for snags, players that would otherwise be eliminated have to stick around longer. Combined with point-based standings, it'll make the top player(s)' place more meaningful since it can't be argued that they just simply got lucky with the RNG at Challonge and have to face opponents with styles they otherwise may not---things would be less predictable and more substantial that way. Additionally, a round robin would promote improvement of all players that were committed to it because they wouldn't just be kicked out for losing a couple of a larger number of matches and again the greater variety of playstyles and characters spices things up further.

I think it's just healthier for competition overall. I've seen what happens with ladders and bracket tourneys are just fine, but I really believe the round robin format has a greater potential---especially after seeing it work well before in another competitive community.
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Theres NO way to regulate the CaS version of DJ in an online tourney. Theres NO way to check to make sure my opponent is using the proper specs to allow him in tourney play. Just sounds like a cluster fuck to me.

A round robin, online tourney would take weeks and weeks to complete. We are already having enough trouble getting through the first round in a double elim tourney. Much less trying to get everyone to get in touch with everyone to arrange matches. That would take WAY to long. I dont know whats so hard to understand that.
 
Allowing Devil Jin from my perspective as an offline player is a very bad idea. Many offline players start off playing online and before they make the switch they may test the waters with something just like an online tournament. If they were to learn Devil Jin, then find when the switch is made that it was basically time wasted, then it will only encourage them to keep playing online only and not pursue what could be some amazing experiences.

While I try to distance myself from the online community and focus on offline play nowadays, I still respect that the online scene is a part of the soul calibur community and when it comes to organised competitive events, the whole community should speak as one and not be divided. Devil Jin is banned and for good reason, as a community we are fine with that and its the way it should stay to prevent alienation and exclusion.
 
HRD said:
No need to fuel the fire on the DJ thing. Save that for the casuals please.
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I would somewhat consider an online specific tournament as pseudo-casual, anyway. That's why I included the disclaimer in the initial post about being fine with DVJ in an online tourney. The hit/hurt/collision issues from SCIV online are definitely not here and, although I'm not sure how much research has really gone into it, it seems like the character sizes balance out extra reach with reduced damage, etc.

Anyway, the points made about consistency and unity are great, so out with the DVJ topic.
 
UnseenWombat said:
If I did do a round robin, it would be in addition to the double elimination tourney, not in place of it. I'm considering the idea, but I kinda prefer a ranking ladder series. I think...
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Ladders would be a terrible idea. Rather than promoting competition, it would stifle it and no one would ever challenge anyone if they couldn't rank up and it'd just be the same handful of people fighting the same handful people endlessly with minimal change at the top of the ladder---which is where I'd hope people are wishing things to be more interesting. If all one seeks in a tourney is efficiency, oh it's definitely the right way to go. But it's fucking boring as hell.



not Clint Eastwood said:
Theres NO way to regulate the CaS version of DJ in an online tourney. Theres NO way to check to make sure my opponent is using the proper specs to allow him in tourney play. Just sounds like a cluster fuck to me.

A round robin, online tourney would take weeks and weeks to complete. We are already having enough trouble getting through the first round in a double elim tourney. Much less trying to get everyone to get in touch with everyone to arrange matches. That would take WAY to long. I dont know whats so hard to understand that.
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The issue regarding DJ's ban is solely based on hitboxes being changed by CAS, correct? Do please correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't pretty much every conceivable hitbox issue be associated with height and equipment? Height changes in CAS are immediately visible as soon as a single round begins, anyone that would be seeking to exploit hitboxes with non-standard sizes would stick out like a sore thumb.
And again for an online tourney, any differences caused by something as minute as non-height changes wouldn't be significant. I also find Wombat's argument against DJ to be quite faulty, seeing as how it's far from difficult to distinguish online from serious tourneys. With that little text wall painted all over the online forum, there's simply no plausible situation where someone would make that mistake.

Round robin is as flawed as any other tourney or season format. What it does differently is more strongly promoting healthy, active, unpredictable competition and allow for a more diverse set of matches for *ALL* competitors. A side effect of this is that whoever performs the best overall is most likely to have the best score in rankings, so a season's victory is more definitive than fighting the same players over and over.

So basically we've got three kooky options with what we're doing now as the middle ground with issues from both extremes leaking in. Ladders are dull, round robin is cumbersome.


Ladders would be the worst thing to happen. If everyone fights the same players over and over, they'll become complacent and lazy in adapting to new opponents near their level. Then we'll have some bullshit where something that shouldn't work against competent players accustomed to playing multiple styles tears through everyone that became too complacent without earning it. I'm sure some of you more familiar with the tourney scene have seen how much it sucks when that happens, if not in Bamco's recent championship having players that shouldn't have been there then elsewhere. I'm sure there are more examples. Of course online isn't the same as offline blahblahblah, we should be aiming to maximize the potential of our format to take advantage of things that can't be done in offline tourneys(players unable to travel amongst other issues) and embrace the positives an online tourney brings that offline tourneys currently do not. If we can avoid bullshit like that things will be better and there's really no reason beyond "lol i r 2 layZ 4 study matchups" to keep DJ banned from an online tourney either. If anyone were to try to use exploits, uploading the replay provides a quick and easy disqualification.


I probably didn't word this in the best manner possible since I'm so heavily medicated at the moment, but there's really no reason not to really consider it. If the same matches with the same three players over and over for months on end sounds that interesting, just wait until one of those three players leaves the community! Then things'll be even more interesting! A closed circle with a slowly diminishing membership will only deterioate. Same goes for a tourney scene. If you want just the same people against the same people and cut off the ability for new blood to come in, you're going out of your way to fuck yourselves over pretty much.
 
I really don't want to try to nail down 16-32 matches a week. Hard enough to pin people down for one friggin' match a week.
 
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