Hardest Character to master and win with.

KingAce

KingAce

HERMITISM
I am going to make the argument for Asta.
Why...because I picked up Yun, Night and Zass, and even tried out a couple other characters Like Cervy, who didn't interest me. But Asta, damn I just can't be consistant with him. I have put in more time in learning Asta than any of my other characters, and also I mention that I have experience with his moveset from SC3 and SC2...but I have yet to reach even average Asta level I feel.

I have no answers when it comes to Setsuka or any of those punishing bitches, I know how to use him in theory but excution is always lacking. I know he got major nerfs, thats why I picked him anyway, but still I know he has a lot of potential for high class fights, but I don't think I can practice myself into a serious tournament with Asta, any quickly.

In that respect I think Asta along with a couple other characters like Ivy, and Yoshie, have always been difficult to pick-up and master...And since I prefer linear straight forward characters without stupid inputs that I will never bother with (Ivy's CS/Yoshi JFs) I think that's why I am actually struggling with Asta. This guy requires heavy attention to defense, especially GIs...but because his such a fun character to use I think I will try to main him or just get decent with him.

It's interesting that high level play usually consists of the easiest characters to pick-up and master, but also the strongest and safest. Sisters anyone(them bitches get no respect)! In SC3 there where like 2 good Asta players, and 1 Ivy player in the US community. Powerfull characters but very hard to master...
 
A few of my offline friends accuse Astaroth (and hence Ashlotte as well, heh) to be a cheap character due to his many ring out attacks, high damage and range. I counter that by saying that his attacks (the majority of them) are slow and sort of predictable.

When I fight someone that either isn't very experienced against Astaroth or someone who is used to fighting another type of Astaroth (as in, another player with a different style) I can pretty easily land the attacks that lead to the big damage combos. But when I go up against someone that seem to know all of Astaroth's available moves (possibly an Asta-player him/herself) I can't seem to land a single blow without pulling some mind games.

It is quite hard to break out of a rush your opponent is putting you in when he blocks your every attempt to land a quick move to try and buy some space. In my experience at least.

To summarize: I've found Astaroth to be great (perhaps even overpowering) against people who are inexperienced with him but as soon as the opponents take their game to the next level, Asty has to stay a step or two ahead to manage to land his predictable attacks.
 
Definately not Asta, his basic throw game and set ups are very easy to understand and utilize. He has good begginer, intermediate and advanced tools, range and deceptive speed. Overall, he is one of the easiest characters to play.

Right now I'd say Ivy is one of the hardest characters to learn and win with, she takes a lot of time to learn all the transitions and optimal damage and command throw set ups. After that, Hilde is difficult purely based on the new charge mechanics she has and her limits that come with them. After that Setsuka is fairly hard to perfect, as she requires a great amount of precision and timing and doesn't have a beginner friendly move set.

That is my opinion on this subject.

cha cha
 
Tira definitely scores up there for "hard to win with". She already falls flat on several marks:

-Her range isn't exactly the greatest; several easier-to-use characters easily outrange her with more efficiency.
-Her speed is inconsistant; even her close-up moves are slower than other characters' close moves.
-Her damage is mediocre at best, lacking at worst, and hardly compares to heavy-damage/easy-input characters like Mitsurugi or Kilik

In short, we have bad speed, bad range, and bad damage. There's absolutely NO reason why Tira should be capable of winning if we look at those three points, but Tira's all about knowing WHAT to do and WHEN to do it. Like her fighting style suggests, playing her is like a leading a dance; you have to keep to a certain rhythm, NEVER miss a beat (between random mood swings) and always keep the opponent playing at your pace.


Honorable mention goes to Setsuka, whose more deadly moves depend SO much on JF timing and precision. If you miss a JF or a tricky command input (JF Umbrella, Sakura Air Combo and Silver Moon Fury come to mind), you lose a HUGE amount of damage that could have potentially pushed the game in your favor. Setsuka also has the problem of being predictable; she has a TERRIBLE set of lows with only her slowest lows being the good ones. A GI-happy opponent should know that Setsuka relies a LOT on mids to make the most of her game, so you can expect to be repelled almost flawlessly by someone who's used to Setsuka's quick counterattacks.
 
Excluding the obvious low tiers like Talim and Rock, I'm gonna go with Setsuka over Ivy on this one. Not only is she highly dependent on JF inputs for many of her best moves, she also lacks a really great low. Ivy has a lot of options to learn, but still has some tools that are fairly easy to apply.
 
AkazukinChaCha said:
Definately not Asta, his basic throw game and set ups are very easy to understand and utilize. He has good begginer, intermediate and advanced tools, range and deceptive speed. Overall, he is one of the easiest characters to play.

Right now I'd say Ivy is one of the hardest characters to learn and win with, she takes a lot of time to learn all the transitions and optimal damage and command throw set ups. After that, Hilde is difficult purely based on the new charge mechanics she has and her limits that come with them. After that Setsuka is fairly hard to perfect, as she requires a great amount of precision and timing and doesn't have a beginner friendly move set.

That is my opinion on this subject.

cha cha
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In respect to your opinion.

I disagree on the part about Asta. Yes he has good throws and set ups like u say...but's all about excution. He might be easier to play but very hard to master, when it comes to high level matches...he has difficulty. He has to look for mixups just aswell as anyone else. And although you say he is easy to play, I will ask you, How many good Asta players did you see during the SC3 days? I can do just about all Asta's moves no problem; the inputs...not complicated at all. But utilizing them effectively in a match...knowing when to pull them off, especially against rushing opponents, far from easy. And that's my argument, despite being linear in his inputs, Asta isn't easy to master...because when he was a beast in SC3 not a lot of people where using him. We could make the argument that he was at least in the top 4 on any respectfull tier list.
 
A_Bad_Idea said:
Tira definitely scores up there for "hard to win with". She already falls flat on several marks:

-Her range isn't exactly the greatest; several easier-to-use characters easily outrange her with more efficiency.
-Her speed is inconsistant; even her close-up moves are slower than other characters' close moves.
-Her damage is mediocre at best, lacking at worst, and hardly compares to heavy-damage/easy-input characters like Mitsurugi or Kilik

In short, we have bad speed, bad range, and bad damage. There's absolutely NO reason why Tira should be capable of winning if we look at those three points, but Tira's all about knowing WHAT to do and WHEN to do it. Like her fighting style suggests, playing her is like a leading a dance; you have to keep to a certain rhythm, NEVER miss a beat (between random mood swings) and always keep the opponent playing at your pace.


Honorable mention goes to Setsuka, whose more deadly moves depend SO much on JF timing and precision. If you miss a JF or a tricky command input (JF Umbrella, Sakura Air Combo and Silver Moon Fury come to mind), you lose a HUGE amount of damage that could have potentially pushed the game in your favor. Setsuka also has the problem of being predictable; she has a TERRIBLE set of lows with only her slowest lows being the good ones. A GI-happy opponent should know that Setsuka relies a LOT on mids to make the most of her game, so you can expect to be repelled almost flawlessly by someone who's used to Setsuka's quick counterattacks.
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I'd like to add here that she only transitions into a stance if she wants to. IIRC, there's no guaranteed way to switch between gloomy and jolly, you just have moves that have a high % chance of switching and moves that have a low % chance.
 
Well i think Mitsu, Cerv, Night and Sieg are the easiest to learn and win with (hence they are beeing over played online) I don't see the fun in playing as one of those "overpowered" characters if i were to pick i new main (play as Taki atm) i woud most likely chose Setsuka since she is one of the hardest to learn i think atleast.
When you win against one of those easiy mode characters with a characters as Setsuka you can be sure that you are ALOT better then the one you are beating since your character is alot harder to play. If you ever played World of warcraft high rated 3vs3 it is kinda like a holy paladin wining over those highly spammed resto druids
 
Well just because you can pull off very hard inputs with the character doesn't mean you have mastered him/her. You can pull of JFs with Yoshie and still suck. Lol.
 
asta is very easy to pick up but i wouldn't say hes easy to play.

setsuka is definitely hard to master... i mean all her best stuff is JF's, nearly all her combos require some form of precision and JF too.
 
The only thing that makes Ivy effective in the hands of someone who just picked her up is the opponent's inexperience with her. I still have a lot of work to do, but I feel I have a very respectable Ivy and still have trouble against mediocre players if they are used to fighting Ivy. Not too much trouble, but still ;)
 
normally, i would Say that Taki is probably the hardest character to win with, but really, if you keep the game in your favor with her, (which, if you get a good move in, you can) it should be a pretty ok win. mastering her is kind of different though. she has alot of combos that simply haven't been unlocked yet and a bunch of oddly linked NC and NCC. every day I think ive got her completey, i find someone else with a new combo, rather it be for flashy purposes or for actual damage, it shows how many tools she has in her bag of tricks. a few other characters that i think would be a litte hard to master is Setsuka, Raphael, Tira, and algol (who care if he has a gun, he still is hard to use!)
 
IMO, whatever Asta lacks in any department he makes up with damage. If you land a throw, and a good tech trap follow up, you've decimated 90% of your opponents health, and they're running scared for the rest of the match.

Voldo... just take a hard long look at his move list, and play with him for a few hours.. you will find new shit and strings and combos... he's go so many moves that any one who masters him will have a tool to use in every situation vs. any character.
 
KingAce said:
Well just because you can pull off very hard inputs with the character doesn't mean you have mastered him/her. You can pull of JFs with Yoshie and still suck. Lol.
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Yes but with Sets JF's ARE your combos. They're her "special ability" i guess you say. Though i know nothing about Yoshi he seems more stance orientated then JF based.
 
Setsuka, Hilde and Tira are the hardest to master and win with. Taki and Asta are hard to master but not hard to win with since you can deliver alot of damage with Asta or use a noob combo or ninja bomb the hell out of someone with Taki.
 
Yukani said:
Well i think Mitsu, Cerv, Night and Sieg are the easiest to learn and win with (hence they are beeing over played online) I don't see the fun in playing as one of those "overpowered" characters if i were to pick i new main (play as Taki atm) i woud most likely chose Setsuka since she is one of the hardest to learn i think atleast.
When you win against one of those easiy mode characters with a characters as Setsuka you can be sure that you are ALOT better then the one you are beating since your character is alot harder to play. If you ever played World of warcraft high rated 3vs3 it is kinda like a holy paladin wining over those highly spammed resto druids
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I would strongly disagree with the statement that Night is "easy" to win with or is "overpowered." especially with the recent nerfs of 1.03.

I think it would be safe to assume the list of 'hardest character to win with' changes for every level of play, since some characters tend to notch up more wins that others depending the level of competition. I.e. Kilik can totally devastate lower level-intermediate type of play, but will probably have less success against advanced players. (i guess i would be stating the obvious on this one tho)

And I don't know why Taki's name comes up in this list,cuz she's got plenty of tools that far make up for her short comings.

that being said...maybe yoda? I don't know, just my $.02.
 
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