Hate Speech: Of Clean Hits, Designs, and Time Travel

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It’s time once again to fire up the Hate Speech Wayback Machine for another field trip back in time. Today we’ll be going back into the hazy, primordial era known as “oh, the last couple of weeks or so.” It was a simpler time. A better time, back when men were men, women were men, and all children were manly children.

Though records from this dark age are few and fragmented, some bits of its knowledge have been passed down to our modern age in the forms of myths, legends, and hushed whispers around our campfires. One such tale is that of the beast known as “Clean Hit,” and that is where our journey will begin.

The Fair and Balanced No-Spin Zone™

I’m on record as being opposed to the Clean Hit mechanic’s implementation, but my highly unscientific sampling of the conversations around here tells me that some people are having disproportionately negative reactions, so today I’ll be a bit of an apologist. No, I don’t like it right now, but I suspect it will ultimately become a minor gripe. More importantly, its implementation, however flawed one may think it, evinces certain positive and useful elements on which we might capitalize.

What follows will be a review of the mechanic as we’ve seen it thus far: what it does wrong, what it does right, and what we as thoughtful players can take away from these considerations to apply elsewhere and thereby gain an advantage over our opponents.

Clean Hit randomly awards bonus damage upon successfully landing one of a character’s signature moves. The most obvious objection here—and it’s a big one—is the word “random.” Certain random effects are tolerable, though hardly desirable, provided that match results are still determined by player skill. Awarding extra damage haphazardly has the real potential to affect the outcome of a match, and it’s likely that everyone who regularly plays in tournaments will eventually feel a string of Clean Hit Shenanigans (CHS, I’m coining it here!). The only reason I’m not completely up in arms about this is that the damage itself, while noticeable, doesn’t appear to be game-breakingly so. The proper attitude, then, is one of disappointment rather than fury.

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Though fury does have it's benefits...

Daishi’s stated rationale behind the mechanic (see: Bibulus’ interview) is twofold: it provides a “fair” mechanic for less hardcore players while simultaneously nudging players toward using the good stuff. Let’s examine them in turn, beginning with the issue of fairness. There’s a non-obvious distinction to be drawn between the words “fair” and “equal,” and negotiating this subtle definitional quirk poses something of a design challenge.

Fairness as we intuitively understand it can best be described in the words of unofficial Hate Speech mascot Ronald Reagan’s ideological arch-nemesis, Karl Marx, who wanted “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” Fairness erases difference, equalizes results, and is utterly desirable in single-player games and Mario Kart.

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Notice how you never get stuff that shoots behind you when you’re in first place? Communism.

Equality, by contrast, is far simpler—it just demands that everyone be given the same opportunities, results be damned. It’s also a wonderful guiding philosophy for a competitive game. Interestingly, Clean Hit is an equal mechanic, not a fair one. It doesn’t award any special advantage to the less-skilled player, but instead simply provides a chance, at random, for either player to gain an even greater reward than they otherwise would have. In fact, since Clean Hit only applies to moves that actually land, and it’s not unreasonable to assume that more-skilled players will land more attacks than their less-skilled opponents, it’s no further feat to assume that Clean Hit will end up rewarding cagey veterans more than anyone else. In that sense, Clean Hit doesn’t really pass the sniff test as a gift to the casual fan. It’s just unnecessary randomness.

The good of Clean Hit—no, the brilliance of it—by contrast, is in Daishi’s second major reason. Providing a roadmap of sorts that will take players to the best moves for their character is an incredibly savvy design choice. Like it or not, we’re in an age in which games are expected to teach us how to play them. Think for a second. When was the last time you purchased a game with an instruction manual taking up more than a couple of pages? Manuals are growing smaller and smaller (and evaporating entirely in some cases) because, frankly, people aren’t reading them. Players jump in, press buttons, and rely on their intuition and past experiences to get them going. As such, taking an active hand in guiding these players toward a set of useful moves demonstrates real thoughtfulness on the part of Project Soul. We as members of this community shouldn’t want our games to be intimidatingly complex. If new players languish for months in hapless scrubdom, it’ll just turn them off.

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See! I told you DOA was more pro than stupid old SC!
Following the Breadcrumbs
Smart thinking on the designers’ part, even if the implementation is flawed in this instance, does more than simply tell us that Project Soul is being conscientious. It should also remind us of something I pointed out a couple of weeks ago (you didn’t think we were done with the Wayback Machine, did you?): games are intentionally designed environments, and elements of that design provide us with clues for how to play better. For a case in point, let’s switch gears a bit and look at a new mechanic about which I’m very excited: CE/BE.​
As we all know by now, BE properties are as varied as the moves to which they are attached. We have also seen, however, that CE attacks also come in distinct flavors which will ultimately have implications for both how they’re applied and how each character is played overall. Based on what we’ve seen so far, I’d divide CEs into three broad groups: grabs, conventional, and utility.​
Grabs are, well, grabs. They’re also ridiculously fast, from the look of it. Combined with the fact that they can’t be blocked or broken, this opens up a number of intriguing possibilities for application. First, they probably combo off of a lot of things you might not suspect. A super-fast grab CE could possibly change an innocuous counterhit BB from a mild setback into a first-class ticket to frown town. Second, these supers will likely punish some “safe” moves, which dramatically changes the tenor of a match once the player with that CE has a little meter. Finally, they may interrupt certain unpleasant traps or sticky situations. We’ll need to do plenty of experimenting.​
“Conventional” CEs are things like Maxi’s, Ezio’s, Pyrrha’s, etc. They hit fast and hard, and are likely best as punishers or in parts of combos. We’ve seen people having success with random CE as a defensive interrupt in the open field, but at least a couple of these CEs appear to be unsafe, so that will limit their usefulness in this regard.​
Nightmare’s counter-CE provides the perfect example of a “utility” move. Its special GI properties compensate for its poor speed and linearity, lending it to creative use within specific contexts. I’m deeply interested in finding out if other characters have similarly exotic CEs, but in the meantime I would think of Patroklos’ as also being at least partially a utility move because of its ring out properties.​
Beyond these wide ranging categories, CEs need to be evaluated in much the same fashion as we would any conventional move. How safe is it? What’s the damage? Can I combo into it? Does it provide strong wakeup options? A CE that isn’t necessarily huge damage may yet become an invaluable tool for a character if it allows players to create massively favorable situations when it hits. Conversely, a CE that appears good in a vacuum might not have as much of a place in a given character’s movelist. Take, for example, Nightmare. His overall design since SC3 has dictated that the best way to defeat him is to do as little as possible while he kills himself trying to open you up, and SC5 Nightmare still appears vulnerable to punishment, 2A interrupts, and the like. Given all that, there appears to be less incentive to attack him than certain other characters, thereby diminishing the usefulness of his counter CE outside of situations wherein an opponent’s guard is about to break. Does this make his CE bad? No, but it does tell us that Nightmare players should generally be basing their meter usage around BE moves unless they know their opponent has to start getting reckless.​
Just as the Clean Hit flash guides new players toward solid moves, the properties of a character’s CE will guide veterans toward advanced techniques of offense, defense, and overall meter expenditure. Remember, we’re dealing with a designed environment. Move properties weren’t given to Namco on stone tablets from an otherworldly source—they’re all created with specific intention. A little thought and experimentation on our parts will help reveal that intention, and it will certainly help us kick the crap out of the “lol 3B->CE so good!” crowd.​
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Urghhhhhh brain hurtsssss...
Wtf Hates, where is the article about CaS?!!?!?!?!?!
Homework:
Weigh in on Clean Hit, fairness, balance, etc. if you care to. I’d love to get a discussion going. While you’re at it, take a crack at doing what I did in the second part of this piece: break down a move and let it tell you how it should be used, then share. I’d particularly love to hear from those of you who got to spend some time playing SC5 at NEC. Give your impressions!​
 
Side Discussion: The idea that you should be able to play any character how you want and be successful with "your way" is the kind of idea that leads all characters to playing the same, as they would all require the same tools to allow such a thing. This is another scrub fallacy about balance and character design. If there is no diversity, there is only one character with many different faces.

Character direction in terms of intentionally designed/encouraged playstyles is so much better (IMO OF COURSE HERP).
 
That's the biggest reason why I am a fan of the devs nudging people toward smarter play with shiny flashes and all that trash. Stepping outside of our beloved genre for a moment, look at World of Warcraft. That whole goddamn game is a giant Skinner Box. Look at the way it flashes and dings when you level! I cite this not as an example of design dictating play--it isn't--but as one of the motivational power of silly superficial reinforcement mechanisms. We need more of that in FGs.

As I mentioned in my post, and as others have reinforced obliquely, designers dictate the "proper" boundaries within which intelligent play occurs. They always have, and they always will. What's novel here is foregrounding it, making it explicit, rather than damning us to a period of blind trial & error.

That said, I still think that doing this by adding randomness, in particular a randomness that'll probably hurt scrubs overall, thus negating part of its own rationale for existence, is unnecessary and worth bitching about a little bit.
 
The only article I read that gives me homework. Homework I want to do. I initially thought clean hit was well a 'clean hit' if you get me. No running, no counter, nothing, just a plain smack across the face while your opponent was standing still.

But I'm fine with this. Fortune favors no one. Also, I am major hyped about the CE system. They vary wildly between characters and I guess, make room for innovation. I mean, just look at Viola's! Completely unorthodox but I cannot wait to see what people can do with it.
 
grendel: Don't think of it in such limited terms. Technically speaking, you're free to do whatever the hell you want so long as it's allowed within the rules of the game as the code enforces them. That said, there will always be stronger and weaker ways to go about this, given the strengths and weaknesses of different characters. That's where diversity comes into play: since "good" and "bad" are really just functions of comparison, the only way to stop certain characters being good for rushdown, others for pokes, yet others for defense and punishment, etcetera, is to make every character the same.

Character design clues us in to broad ideas about how to play a character. There's still room for plenty of variety while working to best showcase a given character's strengths.
 
For example, @ DEV 2011, Vincent VS LP, Vincent getting a lucky (was really all skill) Just Frame punish with Sophitia - he wouldn't have won if he hadn't gotten the JF.
Not a good example of random. But then you said it was skill, so I'm confused at the mixed message.

At any rate, I had that entire performance planned out. I knew I was going to finish with 236B:4 JF all along.
 
I think we won't pay any deep attention to clean hitsl.
A move with a clean hit property is simply a move that might do extra damage. That's it....there's nothing more to it than that. However, it will feel rewarding when you see the flash, and it might create some particularly interesting matches in certain situations spectator-wise.

NM's CE is an auto gi....But what it does for NM is keep those nasty rushdown characters off his ass. I wish he had this in SC4...if any one is at all familiar with NM vs Taki match-up. Also I wonder if it's fast enough to whiff punish, that 100+ damage is appealing, If I can just back dash CE....
His CE, also allows him to zone properly....This NM is similar to SC4's however, there's a couple of safe zoning stuff he now has. And he now has a revised Burst Damage(SG) game.

SCV just like all the other SCs, still shows signs of playstyle diversity...even with the reduced moveset. Most fighters don't pull this off as well as SC does...it please me to see that.
 
Not a good example of random. But then you said it was skill, so I'm confused at the mixed message.

At any rate, I had that entire performance planned out. I knew I was going to finish with 236B:4 JF all along.

In that situation you can kind of look at it as mostly skill, tiny bit of luck - one frame off and you wouldn't have gotten that finish, and in a tournament setting, a slip up like that is much easier to do.
 
The way I see it: It is something that needs to be experimented with. If there will be problems, they will be addressed and fixed in a later game. This, my friends, is what is called "Trial and error". There will be good and bad, but I have no opinion on the actual clean hit thing till I play around and see how it is for myself.
 
If you're the more skilled person, then why would a slight damage increase in certain moves matter? That skill should allow you to:
  • Not get hit via proper spacing
  • Not get hit via reading your opponent better
  • Getting CHs based on predictable reads
  • Block those moves and punish appropriately
Among other things. If increased damage should automatically trump skill, as it seems that you are saying, then anyone that picks up a controller should easily be able to best even an intermediate with unblockables.
randomness has nothing to do with using unblockables, unless they were to make unblockables damage randomly. Sorry if it appears i'm compairing solely experts and newbs. I use these principals too and expect every challenger to be familiar with them. That is when slight damage increase is significant, when two players of the same level vs each other.
How many people play contrary to the design intent of a character and actually manage to be extremely successful? This is an honest question - I'm assuming none, since it would be far more effective and pragmatic to just switch characters. Kind of like a round hole with a square peg - you can force it, but why bother when you have a round peg in your.
give an example of "design intent" as it pertains to use of character please, you seem to be speaking abstractly. I'm not sure what you mean, maybe i do play contrary.


So basically, the days when the game was an unbalanced mess were better because if you won with any character, you were respected. Except for the fact that there are tons of people sick of the fact that Ivy consistently makes Top 3 at tournaments. And the fact that Rock never won a major. And that most low tiers that have placed are usually due to character ignorance on the part of their opponent - ask Omega, who has admitted as much before.
I'm not saying that any game is more fun or more valid as an unbalanced mess nor am in saying I think it should be unbalanced in the least. But I wish to bring into question, what is it we're calling balanced? Equal frame rate and damage? Or does this satisfaction rely on some one's perspective of how the characters are used? Because the more variables you enter, the harder it is to ascertain. All I'm saying is that we should win by our freedom to use the character in the best possible way (half the game is discovering how), not by some predetermined path. According to this article and Heaton, Clean Hit rewards those who fight the way PS wants them to. Give players equal liberties. It's a game! Not a job.
I agree that it would be difficult to win with the SC4 version of Rock , unless you use the throw loop. Rock used to be awesome, he was a threat to any character prior to SC3. And finally, yes if a player can win with every character, that calls for some respect. Even more if he doesn't do it by the book. Why would character ignorance matter in a tournament? The ignorant ones get weeded out, the one's who know their character and read their opponent prevail.
 
randomness has nothing to do with using unblockables, unless they were to make unblockables damage randomly. Sorry if it appears i'm compairing solely experts and newbs. I use these principals too and expect every challenger to be familiar with them. That is when slight damage increase is significant, when two players of the same level vs each other.

Randomness doesn't have anything to do with unblockables - except for Dampierre's B+K, an unblockable high that is either i10, i20, i30, i50, or doesn't hit at all. But that wasn't the point of that. My point was what Clean Hit gives is just damage. As I have said previously: if we're going on only damage, Unblockables, which typically do the most damage, should be the deciding force in a match, since by your logic, damage is what matters at equal skill level.

This is completely untrue, and damage is probably one of the least important things in trying to understand a Person VS Person matchup.

give an example of "design intent" as it pertains to use of character please, you seem to be speaking abstractly. I'm not sure what you mean, maybe i do play contrary.

I can get really specific here. Siegfried is designed primarily around his stances. SRSH, for example, employs essentially a 50/50 mixup, and that is the entire stance. Sure, you can use SRSH K to try and punish an AA on block, but that is most definitately NOT its intent - from neutral, SRSH K is a relatively slow (around 40 frames from) that Siegfried can easily be hit out of. It strength is that it is similar in speed to SRSH B, with which it mixes up for similar damage.

Yes, you CAN use SRSH to try to punish things. But that isn't the stance's strong point at all - invoking mixups is. This is the problem with "playing a character in the best possible way...not by some predetermined path": the characters are already designed around a predetermined path - also known as the BEST POSSIBLE WAY.

I'm not saying that any game is more fun or more valid as an unbalanced mess nor am in saying I think it should be unbalanced in the least.

Why bother bringing up the "good old days" of unbalanced, buggy games then if you're not actually saying anything about them?

But I wish to bring into question, what is it we're calling balanced? Equal frame rate and damage? Or does this satisfaction rely on some one's perspective of how the characters are used? Because the more variables you enter, the harder it is to ascertain.

Balance is anything that prevents shit like Hilde and Algol from happening. There should not be gigantic disparity throughout the tiers - a character that has mostly 8:2 and 9:1 matchups is unbalanced as fuck. I know you're smart enough to understand this - don't argue semantics just for the sake of trying to have a point.

All I'm saying is that we should win by our freedom to use the character in the best possible way (half the game is discovering how), not by some predetermined path. Give players liberties. It a game! Not a job.

As I have said before, the characters are designed around this pre-determined path that IS the best possible way to play them. Giving them "liberties" means what, exactly? Giving everyone a safe i15 launcher? Giving everyone the means to get in on their opponent? Even vague things like that create a very bland product where everyone is pretty much the same character.

I agree that it's would be difficult to win with the SC4 version of Rock , unless you use the throw loop. Rock used to be awesome, he was a threat to any character prior to SC3. And finally, yes if a player can win with every character, that calls for some respect. Even more if he doesn't do it by the book.

The throw loop is easily breakable, and is pretty much as random as you can get in SCIV - 50/50 throws for days. If you mash one button, you WILL break it eventually. Not to mention, to even get it started is a challenge in itself.

Why would character ignorance matter in a tournament?

Because, as you said:

The ignorant ones get weeded out, the one's who know their character and read others prevail.

In other words, if you pick a low tier character, there is a very good chance that you can beat people just on the fact that they don't understand the match-up, as low tier characters are seldom picked. Picking Algol doesn't matter if you don't know how to block any of Yun-seong's Crane shenanigans.
 
^ This
Not a lot of players have a perfect understanding of every matchup and the weaker characters often get unnoticed.
 
What I implied was that when it comes to a tournament, the ignorant don't matter. So you're saying that the people who win tournaments aren't people who know match-ups? If you know how to fight, you know how to fight. And you're still missing the point. We're not talking about the most damage, we're talking about random damage. Also THE BEST POSSIBLE WAY isn't what you decide somebody should use, cause you're mind don't work the same as every other single player's. Some have better or worse reactions to different things. Also one might play by reaction to strikes (be a punisher), another might play using strategy due to stage. Some might have a better grasp on his enemy's damage capability, while another is better at timing. We're all different.

Anyways, thanks for explaining your "designer intent" meaing. Good example.
 
What I implied was that when it comes to a tournament, the ignorant don't matter. So you're saying that the people who win tournaments aren't people who know match-ups? If you know how to fight, you know how to fight.

What.

No. I'm saying that you can win tournaments based on the ignorance on others. "Knowing how to fight" is different from "knowing how to fight a certain person" - sure, you might know generally what's going on, but if he comes at you with a super awesome unique technique that you have no idea how to beat, you lost because of ignorance - skill had nothing to do with it.

EDIT: I'll amend this a little bit. Omega is probably one of the best player's I've ever had the privilege of playing, but he himself has admitted to getting wins purely because people are unfamiliar with fighting against Zasalamel.

And you're still missing the point. We're not talking about the most damage, we're talking about random damage.

You haven't made a point about it yet. Random damage is ___ because ___?

EDIT: I looked and the only thing resembling a point is "it's bad because it forces you to fight a certain way." And to that, my next point covers that well.

Also THE BEST POSSIBLE WAY isn't what you decide somebody should use, cause you're mind don't work the same as every other single player's. Some have better or worse reactions to different things. Also one might play by reaction to strikes (be a punisher), another might play using strategy due to stage. Some might have a better grasp on his enemy's damage capability, while another is better at timing. We're all different.

In which case, you SWITCH CHARACTERS. If you're exceptional at punishing someone, why would you pick a character like Siegfried who has rather weak punishers until i17? The idea is to pick a character that suits that need. Picking a character and saying "they need to make this character do this" to suit the PLAYER'S needs is stupid, and is what creates fighters that have everyone standardized. If you want that, go play Tekken. This isn't Tekken. The way you're saying it, you sound like you want everyone to play Siegfried, and play him completely different from the others - that would be a stupid game that I would definitely quit.
 
How do you go from quoting my point from the beginning to saying i don't have on? I'll give you a hint: it could be said that I have two.
 
If anything, the worry over clean hit shouldn't be about whether it dictates how a character should be played, but that it might not do a good enough job of it.

Ideally, fighting games should have training mode features that outright tell players why a move is good and informs them about situations in which it should be used. I mean shit, we don't sell power tools to people then tell them to use their imaginations, do we?

...do we?
 
How do you go from quoting my point from the beginning to saying i don't have on? I'll give you a hint: it could be said that I have two.

Because you haven't made it clear what your point even is. Is is that Clean Hit is bad? Is it that Namco is designing characters with certain playstyles in mind? Your argument isn't transparent at all.

And do you even understand how to have a useful and thought provoking discussion? I'll give you a hint: It's not by acting like a child who gets mad when someone says their points aren't concrete enough to pin down.

The whole point of these Hate Speeches is to provoke thought through questioning and discussion. Right now you're doing little more than trolling. Don't be that guy.

If anything, the worry over clean hit shouldn't be about whether it dictates how a character should be played, but that it might not do a good enough job of it.

He gets the point. He gets it completely. Why don't you all get the point?
 
Example of TEKKEN 6 Clean HIT implementation... Paul gets a CLEAN HIT while in RAGE for 50% Health BAR damage... INSANE... but to me would be better if Namco do a video about CLEAN HITS MECHANICS, explaining everything before creating some ruckus... Nice WORK HATES keep going.

PD: People stop doing too long replies for God's Sake... its boring, and I can't read them all while in WORK!
 
As SCIV was my first fighting game ever, I can appreciate their philosophy behind incentivising the use of staple/good moves and helping out new players in identifying them. As Soakrates said though, the way they're going about it with this Clean Hit mechanic just seems unecessary/arbitrary. Applying a "Gambler's Schedule" of damage buffs to like 2-4 moves just doesn't seem like enough of a helping hand to the newbies.

Imo, a better option to take would be to place a lot more emphasis on the signature moves column in the movelists and/or create in-game tutorials(like the quickstep and CE tutorials). Ideally, they could include the very basics like the fast interrupts, step-killers, launchers, and bread n' butter stuff along with principle concepts like punishing, breaking throws, shaking stuns, and oki even. I feel like that would accomplish the goal of guiding new players in the right direction while simultaneously not burdening competitive players with random shenanigans.
 
Example of TEKKEN 6 Clean HIT implementation... Paul gets a CLEAN HIT

Just be aware that Clean Hit in SC5 and Clean Hit in Tekken are entirely different mechanics altogether. I think they should have come up with a new term, frankly, just to avoid sending mixed signals.
 

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