Hate Speech: Theory Fighter University: Remedial Math

  • Moderator
Greetings, my minions... I mean, class! When last we met, we glossed the basic idea that characters can and should be evaluated on their own merits, divorced from such harder to quantify things as ease of use or player skill. Today we’ll be engaging with the mechanics of such evaluation.

There can be no doubt that psychology, creativity, good reads, and mental toughness—all subjective qualities—are critical to achieving success in competitive fighting games. The stage on which these particular player qualities are brought to bear is, by contrast, decidedly objective, being defined by hard numbers. That being the case, when it comes to evaluating character match-ups and mixup scenarios, it stands to reason that we can use these numbers to gain valuable insight into which characters, discrete options, and so on, give us the most dramatic advantage. Don’t worry, it’s not as daunting as it seems. I think. Screw it. Go ahead and worry. Maybe pop some Advil before we get started, too, just in case.

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Definition Time

Some useful terms:

Mixup Scenario

A situation, post-hit, -block, wakeup, or in the open field, wherein a player is forced to make a guess of some sort.

Example: after Astaroth or Voldo’s ground pick-up throws, the player being picked up must usually guess between defending against a throw or a safe mid.

Zero-Sum Mixup

Borrowing obliquely from game theory’s usage of the term zero-sum, this defines a situation wherein guessing correctly nets a player damage while guessing incorrectly costs him damage. This is in contrast to mixups wherein a player might guess correctly and be rewarded only with escaping damage and perhaps frames.

Example: Any mixup involving forcing an opponent to choose between defending one of two unsafe options.

Mathematical Advantage

This term applies to any match-up or mixup scenario in which, after equalizing for player skill, the underlying raw numbers favor a particular character over time. The highest levels of competitive play are all about maximizing mathematical advantage and repeatedly forcing these situations onto an opponent.

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Calculating Mathematical Advantage

First, to be clear, I’m not demanding that anyone break out their TI-86s. Just getting an idea of a range like “Very Good/Good/Bad/Abysmal” can be enough to act as a general guideline. To that end, I’ll only be engaging with the numbers to an extent; once the general tenor of a mixup becomes apparent, I see no reason in pursuing it down to microscopic detail.

A basic scenario would be Astaroth, in a position of advantage, running up to another character and mixing between a throw and a Bullrush (66K). In most cases, the defending player’s options are crouching, which defeats the former, and sidestep, which defeats the latter. (Note that, given these parameters, the defender is forcing Astaroth into a zero-sum mixup. Electing to block a bulrush instead of stepping it makes the scenario far more favorable for Astaroth because it gives him an option wherein the defender guesses correctly but he does not, in fact, take damage.) Astaroth’s general reward structure, assuming he guesses correctly, is as follows:

  • Bullrush hits, opponent takes 28 damage, and is knocked down.
  • Throw connects, opponent takes an average of around 36 damage*, and is knocked down.
Guessing incorrectly, of course, opens him up to step punishes and FC/WR punishes, respectively.

*Note on how throw damage is calculated here: I added the damage for his A and B command grabs, roughly 65 and 80 damage, then divided by two. I then divide by two again to account for a 50% chance to break each grab.

Now let’s plug in the punishments for Astaroth guessing incorrectly. We’ll use Cervantes for this example:
  • Bullrush is stepped, Cervantes punishes with 3B, iGDR, 28B for 65 damage, Astaroth grounded.
  • Throw is ducked, Cervantes punishes with FC A+B spam for ~70, opponent grounded, or WR A, aK for roughly 50 damage and significant advantage, Astaroth left standing.
The scenario outlined, we have to factor player skill out of this equation. Assuming both players are equally skilled, we can assume that, over a long enough time horizon, each will guess right 50% of the time, yielding an average damage of (28+36)/2=32 average damage for Astaroth, and (65+50)/2=57.5 average damage for Cervantes if we reliably go with his easier, less damaging option. Astaroth is effectively wagering57 damage to deal 32. Cervantes has a decisive mathematical advantage of almost two to one.

Let’s observe how the numbers change if Cervantes decides to stand and block bullrush rather than commit to stepping. Astaroth’s numbers remain unchanged; he’s still getting an overall average of about 32 damage every time he initiates this mixup. By blocking bullrush rather than stepping and punishing, however, Cervantes’ numbers become (0+50)/2=25 if we take the lower damage option, (0+70)/2=35 for his more difficult punish. In the first case, Astaroth has a marginal mathematical advantage. In the second, Cervantes’ mathematical advantage is negligible. Doing the math tells us why it is important to minimize your own zero-sum mixups while working, as in the case of stepping instead of blocking in the above example, to maximize the number of zero-sum mixups your opponent utilizes.

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Application and Caveats

Before you start frothing at the mouth and exclaiming things like “b-b-but if I was Astaroth I’d throw out 66A and etcetera, etcetera,” remember that we’re talking about guidelines, not absolutes. There are myriad ways in which basic mixup scenarios can be made more complicated. That said, these complications tend to undermine the effectiveness of the original mixup, introducing new risks and rewards into the occasion. Circumstances will invariably shift and evolve, and that is where your own skills as a player have an opportunity to shine.

What’s more, it’s important to remember that evaluating mixups and match-ups in this fashion addresses averages over time. There are no guarantees that these numbers will bear out 100% in any given match, or even any given five or ten matches. When you’re flipping a coin, sometimes it just comes up all tails. Even so, possessing a strong understanding of any situation’s mathematical underpinnings allows a savvy player to subtly shift the match into his favor, and these results will manifest themselves over time.

One important way to utilize this is the concept of “trading down.” Mathematical advantage helps us determine when it is appropriate to generate particular mixup scenarios. While it’s always in a player’s best interest to engage in as many mathematically advantaged mixups as possible, there are times when roughly equal scenarios become desirable. If you find yourself with a life lead, for example, it’s perfectly reasonable to open up your game and push mixups that favor neither you nor your opponent because, over time, the averages dictate that you’ll lose roughly the same amount of life. When you’re already ahead, equal losses just magnify your advantage while potentially further limiting your opponent’s options if his life drops low enough.

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Homework:
Think about match-ups you play frequently, or those that give you particular trouble, and run the numbers on some of the most common scenarios. See how the math favors or disfavors you. If the math’s on your side, it means your opponent is reading you like a book—get better. If the math’s against you, look for alternatives which might allow you to shift the numbers in your favor, then go play somebody and test it. And, of course, report back here.

Also, next week we will be deviating from the norm a little bit. Be prepared for the worst.
 
Note: one very big general idea that emerges from the math that is not necessarily intuitive to everyone (or at least, you can't be sure that it's true without the math) is that when you apply a mixup the most important thing is not your BEST outcome but your WORST outcome. And this is COMPLETELY lost in Hates' version of the math. The reason why this is true (intuitively) is because your opponent is a sentient being, he will adjust his behavior to minimize how often you get your best outcome and maximize how often you get your worst outcome. So while TAS B is far far better on hit than BB, BB is way better on block: you are farther away so your opponent can't grab you as easily, you can step or reverse mix-up far more easily cause the frames are better, etc. Does that help your head Vincent? This kind of fits for you actually as we've played before and you almost never use TAS B, you use very simple very safe stuff almost constantly.

PS: what pops right out of what I wrote above is that people almost never duck against Soph because TAS B is such a good outcome, they will try to deny it to her constantly. If you play as Soph and just keep doing TAS B/grab 50/50's, people will just basically never duck, and then they will apply mixup after TAS B on block and eat you alive. I've definitely played Soph who used TAS B constantly (not in a good way, I mean they kept getting it blocked) and I think reading what I wrote above would help them understand where they are going wrong in a guideline sort of way.
 
If you want Hates, I can derive a generalized "mix-up formula" which like I said will apply to a very broad swathe of mixups in the game (any 2x2, non recursive mixups) and people can apply this formula without worrying about the derivation. I'll do it tomorrow or something.

Lay it on us!

Something else to consider, however, as to why I think that averaging results to 50/50 over an extreme time horizon is less of crippling error than you might believe:

You've got to consider that your optimal strategy shifts based on every previous iteration of a given scenario. Let's take your example of how Astaroth will optimally bullrush frequenty while throwing infrequently. As you yourself noted, if Cervantes knows Astaroth will mostly bullrush, he'll mostly stand, provided sidestep isn't an option. What we can't forget, though, is that Astaroth does not consider a blocked bullrush to be a "win."

Astaroth represents primarily bullrush-->Cervantes primarily stands and blocks-->Astaroth is forced into throwing more and more frequently in order to inflict any damage.

Again, over a suitably long time horizon, there's an ebb and flow to option selection that comes from the pressure of wanting not just safety, but damage, not to mention the subtle consequences for granting your opponent a free mixup by relying too heavily on the safe option.

There's an equilibrium to be found here, but it's dynamic, and I think it's close enough to 50/50 in the case of my Platonic Ideal Players that it doesn't make things too crazy.
 
Siegfried VS Sophitia
  • Block TAS B - Sophitia is at -10 (safe)
    • A+G*B+G now comes out at i7
    • 1B now comes out at i14
    • Mix-ups
So what do you call a mix-up where one option is safe, but the other isn't? (besides terrible)

It's called stop using 1b and pick a better mid lol
 
This is how people play soul calibur?? I apparently missed something starting out -- time to retake my Linear Algebra/Cal2
 
It's called stop using 1b and pick a better mid lol

Nothing else is safe, and none of Sieg's other unsafe options do anywhere near that much damage. So for the job, it's technically the best mid. It's kind of like an unsafe, slow TAS B where you have to be at point blank instead of tip range to get the most damage. So basically it's not like TAS B at all, but you get what I'm saying. For mixing up with grabs, it's the best option Siegfried has, what with being so mid tier and all.

Besides, that shit is manly as hell.
 
You know how scrubby your character is? Your character so scrubby, she ain't even makin' it to the next game!
 
Yeah a major difference I noticed in Vincent's play at DEV and my play was that he never used TAS B, while I spam that shit. I spam them until they never duck, and then I spam grabs because they will always land.

And if my TAS B is blocked, big deal! Sophie's reverse mixup game is very strong. All I really need to do is stand or crouch guard. If you try a low or throw, Sophie will be able to punish you hard, even if you 2K. As for mids, your damage from mids better be safe or I'll punish that too. Often times though I go for a low GI since her post-GI is almost unparalleled. Post-blocked TAS B risk/reward obviously varies by the matchup, though.

I'm fine throwing myself into uncertain situations when I have the mathematical advantage (I like this term, more specific than "good risk/reward").

Spaced BB is really good too, though. It's completely risk free on block, while having a chance of a small reward. Spaced TAS B though? Broken damage on hit!

Sophitia is the scrubbiest character, make no mistake.
 
So seeing as we're talking math now - I was talking to Belial a few months ago, discussing advantage post 2KB JUKE vs. Siegfried, Belial was adamant that the subsequent mixup is in Sieg's favour (3(B)_GI) assuming Mitsu continues to press offense. This doesn't quite stack up right in my head, can somebody clear this up for me?
 
Sophie is amazing. I would play her if my execution were a little better.
You could always just play like Vincent instead of me
So seeing as we're talking math now - I was talking to Belial a few months ago, discussing advantage post 2KB JUKE vs. Siegfried, Belial was adamant that the subsequent mixup is in Sieg's favour (3(B)_GI) assuming Mitsu continues to press offense. This doesn't quite stack up right in my head, can somebody clear this up for me?
Are you saying 3B and GI beats Mitsu's offensive options? Sure, 3G beats 2KB and a mid of similar speed, but Mitsu's at +10 or something so he has access to slower mids and still stay uninterruptable by 3B.
 
Nothing else is safe, and none of Sieg's other unsafe options do anywhere near that much damage. So for the job, it's technically the best mid. It's kind of like an unsafe, slow TAS B where you have to be at point blank instead of tip range to get the most damage. So basically it's not like TAS B at all, but you get what I'm saying. For mixing up with grabs, it's the best option Siegfried has, what with being so mid tier and all.

Besides, that shit is manly as hell.

Force your stance mixup, and save a fast 3b for when she tries to 2a you out of it then, would be my best guess.
 
Force your stance mixup, and save a fast 3b for when she tries to 2a you out of it then, would be my best guess.

Still gotta disagree on that.

For SRSH B/K mixups, both options give you similar damage, around 60/55 respectively. However, there's a few problems.
  1. Even though the 6B+K effectively becomes an i10 transition, SRSH B and SRSH K are i18 and i19, respectively. Since a good player KNOWS that those are fastest options out of the stance, she can just mash on BB and beat both options. However, the stance still takes 20 frames to get into, regardless of her advantage - they still roughly 40 frames before impact to recognize that I'm in SRSH and mash out BB to beat me. There's no need to try to beat the entrance with 2A.
  2. For argument's sake, let's say they are slow and let me get the SRSH mix-up. The second problem is that both moves are insanely punishable - Sophitia gets a TAS B after blocking either options.
Essentially, Grab/1B is the best 50/50 that Siegfried has just because of those properties, mostly because you're never putting yourself at risk for huge damage.
And now every Sophitia player going to NEC is practicing how to TAS B a blocked 1B...
 
Good speech hates, as always.

However, I still hold to the idea that crunching numbers, while it may give you a nerd-gasm, can't replace experience. Some punishers I only discovered by doing them in-battle, mostly by randomization when I try to get a feel for some characters. Not saying I alone discovered them (someone else probably figured that out long ago), but figured it out on my own.

Muscle memory/eye hand coordination will carry you much much further in SC than crunching numbers would. Most of the moves, there was no need to look at frame data because I pretty much already "knew" how fast/slow it was. There was no need to know "exactly" how bad a match-up between Sieg and Sophie was, as experience already told me how bad it was.

But back to the point, I don't think it's reasonable to take out the human equation. For example, by numbers alone, Sieg looks like garbage and it would be perfectly logical to assume that. Sieg can be played very unpredictably (even if unsafe), and his mix-ups are better than average. Assuming the opponent is NOT going to guess right or react right 100% of the time, eventually that means Sieg will get his hit, which for him usually means high damage.

Thankfully, your opponent (sophi) is not gonna attack constantly (even if she did, you can just predict and GI), so even if 100% of her moves are faster, there will be a moments when Sieg's slower moves can be sneaked in. In this match-up I turtle like CRAZY and typically only attack with 1 hit at a time (unless I get counter or juggle or ground N pound). I also abuse the hell out of 1k, don't know the frames to prove it, but it "feels" like one of his fastest moves.

Don't take this as me criticizing you, quite the contrary. I love your speeches. I just don't think it's really all that necessary to crunch all those numbers. Experience should tell anyone if the match-up is favorable or not. Seems pretty obvious to me. If your mix-up is guessed right and punished a lot, do it less often. Pretty simple.

The reason I don't think it's right to take out the human equation, is because that's exactly the situation were talking about here. Nobody is crunching numbers just to see the AI battle each other.

The human error factor is ALWAYS a factor. It's safe to assume your opponent will make mistake, even if rarely. Forcing your opponent into a big gamble of guessing games eventually makes them trip up, and get scared. Once the opponent is scared, that's when you got em' good. Putting fear into them, makes them make mistakes more.

One final point: frame data was discovered only through experience.
 
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