Hate Speech Theory Fighter University: Tiers

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Tier /ti(ə)r/ (noun):
  1. A row or level of a structure, typically one of a series of rows placed one above the other and successively receding or diminishing in size.
  2. One of a number of successively overlapping ruffles or flounces on a garment.
  3. A level or grade within the hierarchy of an organization or system.
One doesn’t need to be a grizzled fighting game veteran to be familiar with the concept of tiers. Hell, a cursory glance through pretty much any thread in the forums reveals that our little community is positively suffused with tier-speak. For those of you unfamiliar with the term as it’s used in reference to fighting games, however, we are primarily concerned with definition three above (and, to a more idiosyncratic extent, definition two, but that may be another column entirely). At their best, tiers provide a useful shorthand for understanding match-ups and the relative strength or weakness of a character as compared to the rest of the cast. As is the case with any word thrown about so casually, there’s plenty of misinformation floating around, so this week I’ll be tackling some major myths about what tiers mean, how they’re formed, and how we can utilize tier lists and matchup knowledge to gain a competitive edge.

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Be warned: Tier Debating can lead to feeling like this guy looks. Or British. Same difference.

But before I can do that, it’s important that I submit to you my own working definition of character tiers. Here at Hate Speech Theoryfighter University (HSTFU for short), a character’s overall tier rank reflects its total potential, based on individual match-ups, when played at the highest possible level. In other words, when player skill is normalized and therefore factored out of the equation, which characters are simply most effective? Note that for our purposes ease-of-use has no place in tier discussion. This is because the easiest characters to play and are not always necessarily the most dangerous in high-level play, for one. Secondly, ease-of-use is subjective. What’s difficult for one player might be trivial to another. There is simply no reasonable way to account for these discrepancies.

Tier Myth One: Tiers Don’t Exist

Some version of this venerable myth gets trotted out every time an excellent player does well with a character not thought to be “top.” It’s patently ridiculous. Consider that tiers, for our purposes, reflect a character’s potential, not a player’s. The sheer diversity found in the casts of any fighting game made after Karate Champ dictates that some characters will have more favorable match-ups than others, and that is the very essence of what tiers should indicate.

Claiming that tiers don’t exist because Rock has a chance of winning against Amy, no matter how small, is akin to arguing that because I could theoretically walk from my apartment in the San Francisco bay area all the way to NEC instead of taking a plane, there’s no such thing as speed. I’d end up at the same destination, so what’s the difference, right?

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Everyone knows Red was broken in Karate champ anyways.

Tier Myth Two: Tiers Are Destiny

One-hundred eighty degrees away from our first tier myth we find this one: “OMG TOP TIER = AUTO-WIN.” It’s an assertion that is entirely too broad. First, upsets will always be part of life in the tournament scene. Second, and more importantly, just because a character is good does not mean that it will do all of the heavy lifting. Top-tier characters tend to reward good decision-making on the part of the player far more generously than do low-tiers, but nevertheless that human element will always be a factor in how matches play out. Tiers are guidelines; they will help us make informed choices about the characters into which we invest our time, but there are never any guarantees.

Tier Myth Three: Tournament Results = Tiers

As stated earlier, a proper tier list should eliminate the human element as much as possible in order to provide any semblance of consistency. Given that reality, lending too much credence to tournament results when considering tier lists is incredibly counterproductive. Yes, there will be strong correlation between top characters and average tournament placing, but there will always be players who make certain characters seem far better—or, in some instances, far worse—than in fact they are. When in doubt, think logically and do the math, putting aside anecdotal evidence.

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...and then sometimes tournament results and tiers do align

Tier Myth Four: Top Tiers Require No Skill/Low Tier Takes Balls

This one causes me physical pain. First, nowhere will you find a white-bearded man holding aloft a stone tablet with an inscription proclaiming all good characters to be brainless. Yes, some of them are. Many are, in certain games. Still, the relationship isn’t causal. Some high tier characters require a lot of thinking and engagement; they’re just high-tier because of how generously they reward such actions. Conversely, there is nothing particularly brave about playing a terrible character. If you only enjoy playing a bad character (or have serious character loyalty from game to game), that’s absolutely fine, but it is no badge of honor. In fact, in many cases the whole low-tier hero thing is a form of insipid, backhanded cowardice.

Picking a terrible character, giving oneself no shot at victory, and subsequently proclaiming some sort of moral victory is the behavior of a person who ultimately knows that he can’t hang with the big boys. Don’t be that person. Play the characters you love, but leave circuitous notions of honor out of it.

So, What’s the Point?

I’ve posed a fairly strict theory on the way to think about tiers, alongside which I’ve talked a lot about what tiers are not and should not do. What remains is a theoretical model fairly limited in scope, but not at all useless. Proper tier lists, once they’re a bit settled, actually provide us with valuable information about how and where to invest our practice resources.

First, tiers give a general idea of return on investment at the level of character selection. Let’s say, hypothetically, the time and effort necessary to become the best Rock player in the world is identical to the time and effort necessary to become the tenth-best Amy player. Oh, and it just so happens that you have exactly that amount of time and effort at your disposal. A review of the tiers and the match-ups tells us that your time is probably far better spent in becoming the tenth-best Amy, all other things being equal.

Even once you’ve chosen a character, reviewing a tier list for insight into which match-ups are most difficult for that character, regardless of its tier, can help you decide which match-ups to study most in-depth when budgeting your limited practice time.

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Besides, we all know this is the only tier list that matters anyways.

Homework:

You know the drill. Before you rip me too viciously, however, note that Theoryfighter University will be back very soon with explication and defense of some of the more assailable points from above, particularly with regard to the meat and potatoes of how to sort out a tier list. Consider the gauntlet thrown.
 
Then Why mention other games on a SC forum in which the debate is about SC tiers? I feel this was wasted typing.
Because I get the feeling that Soul Cal V is moving towards this direction. Especially since they seem to be trying to work in more and more stuff you'd traditionally only see in 2D games and it's these same mechanics that lead to the situations I'm talking about.
 
Because I get the feeling that Soul Cal V is moving towards this direction. Especially since they seem to be trying to work in more and more stuff you'd traditionally only see in 2D games and it's these same mechanics that lead to the situations I'm talking about.

I feel this is also true. You are referencing the Dom101 articles about 2d/3d aspects before, I think. The thing is, 3d players in general are very sensitive about independent zoning issues. Zoning in 3d games comes from the threat at specific ranges, rather than the active inclusion of things at those ranges.

Algol was jarring because it was poorly implemented, imo. It was alot like Champion Edition (almost used CE haha, nobody would get it) before characters had dedicated anti zoning/projectile tools.

Given that GI now costs meter; and not everyone has acrobatic forward jumps, or tech crouching dash forward, ect, I'd think alot of design space would be required to work on fitting independent zone control in a 3d game.
 
Because I get the feeling that Soul Cal V is moving towards this direction. Especially since they seem to be trying to work in more and more stuff you'd traditionally only see in 2D games and it's these same mechanics that lead to the situations I'm talking about.
You going to have to be more specific than that.
 
I feel this is also true. You are referencing the Dom101 articles about 2d/3d aspects before, I think. The thing is, 3d players in general are very sensitive about independent zoning issues. Zoning in 3d games comes from the threat at specific ranges, rather than the active inclusion of things at those ranges.

Algol was jarring because it was poorly implemented, imo. It was alot like Champion Edition (almost used CE haha, nobody would get it) before characters had dedicated anti zoning/projectile tools.

Given that GI now costs meter; and not everyone has acrobatic forward jumps, or tech crouching dash forward, ect, I'd think alot of design space would be required to work on fitting independent zone control in a 3d game.
Off course, there's still the 3D movement aspect to consider - something which traditionally killed independent space control/zoning in 3D fighters.

The concern now is if 3D players will be willing to deal with having more extreme character specific tactics as the dev team tries to introduce these things.
You going to have to be more specific than that.
SCV looks to be including proper fireball analogues - in other words, independent space control/zone objects. Traditionally, these elements have been the ones that have lead to extreme differences in playstyle and the resultant match-ups between characters in 2D fighters. To take Idle's Champion Ed example. Fighting a fireball character like Ryu or Guile requires a different set of fundamentals compared to fighting someone like Chun Li.
 
I played Algol and against Algol, well enough to tell you that it doesn't make much of a difference. It's still 3D. Unless you're placing more than one projectile on the screen like algol, you're not really going to zone characters out in SCV. At least not with one projectile on screen. Ivy and Hilde will fair much better for your zoning needs.

Match-ups like Algol vs Talim/Maxi won't be in SCV.
I mean Algol had the best back dash as well as teleports. Semi infinite combos etc pretty much a 2d boss...but still people that understood the match-up well enough could get around his bubble shield. Bubbles really where better used for traps, like on wake up, and against walls for mixups.
 
Yeah, but at this point we're not talking about straight up projectiles anymore, but rather objects that can control space and threaten oftentimes from a separate attack vector than your straight up projectiles.
 
What I noticed is when I play Talim my play style is so completely differnet from when I play setsuka or ivy. I play sooo much smarter, even though its online. Ducking Ivy's 6AAA and punishing it, actually sidestepping and throw breaking. Where as with setsuka, online I can pretty much spam 1B:B and win a fight. So I do it. Talim makes me work for wins and in doing so helps me get down appropriate general strategies, rather than spamming and blocking.
 
1) Can someone post a link to somewhere that gives the Tier levels for the previous SCs?

2) I notice that tournament players and online players are completely different in temrs of gameplay. I have noticed that online scramble to unleash combos all over the place and excess other moves that completely control you.

I observed tournament players and they seem to be a lot more calm and use certain moves to attack. Can anyone elaborate on this?
 
1) Can someone post a link to somewhere that gives the Tier levels for the previous SCs?

2) I notice that tournament players and online players are completely different in temrs of gameplay. I have noticed that online scramble to unleash combos all over the place and excess other moves that completely control you.

I observed tournament players and they seem to be a lot more calm and use certain moves to attack. Can anyone elaborate on this?

On point 2: The answer is simple: Lag makes the game trash.
 
On point 2: The answer is simple: Lag makes the game trash.
I like the answer, but not quite what I was aiming for.

Is it because online players fell more confident online and try to spam/use crazy combos and such?
 
I like the answer, but not quite what I was aiming for.

Is it because online players fell more confident online and try to spam/use crazy combos and such?

No, really, its because Lag lets them get away with things without being punished.. it really is lag.
 
1) Can someone post a link to somewhere that gives the Tier levels for the previous SCs?

2) I notice that tournament players and online players are completely different in temrs of gameplay. I have noticed that online scramble to unleash combos all over the place and excess other moves that completely control you.

I observed tournament players and they seem to be a lot more calm and use certain moves to attack. Can anyone elaborate on this?
Tournament players generally stay away from online (there are exceptions such as Ring) because the lag screws up the timings of moves which then forces you to learn the timing off by heart and to not rely on visual aid. Tournament players have to remain calm during battle more than online players because online means nothing. Offline gives you more of a reputation though so people are starting to convert to offline. Online doesn't give the same opportunities that offline does; the lag will prevent punishers and combos so people turn to button bashing and laglows. Offline players have almost no lag (TV dependent) so they can choose their moves carefully to execute massive amounts of damage.
 
I like the answer, but not quite what I was aiming for.

Is it because online players fell more confident online and try to spam/use crazy combos and such?
Actually more than likely the combos you see online aren't combos at all. Stuns into re stuns into weird tech traps. These are all things you can escape. I have been in rooms where noobies were unleashing these long ass none-combos. Taking advantage of shakeable stuns, ground game ignorance or no air control...but in doing so impressed their fellow noobies.

That's what causes the confusion when noobies watch the so called good players and are perplexed by the footsies.

If you ever wondered why in those SCV french videos on youtube, you have people in the comments section calling them terrible, this is why.
 
Actually more than likely the combos you see online aren't combos at all. Stuns into re stuns into weird tech traps. These are all things you can escape. I have been in rooms where noobies were unleashing these long ass none-combos. Taking advantage of shakeable stuns, ground game ignorance or no air control...but in doing so impressed their fellow noobies.

That's what causes the confusion when noobies watch the so called good players and are perplexed by the footsies.

If you ever wondered why in those SCV french videos on youtube, you have people in the comments section calling them terrible, this is why.

I really like your statement, I feel the same way. For a long time now, probably until two hours ago, I was trying to learn and hope to execute all of these Crazy-Godly-Ass combos that really didn't make sense. Now I just want to relax and play more sensibly than I have been.

Yes, I hate going on Youtube and seeing these comments from people I've never heard of call tournament players "sucky" and "gay" and other out of context names.
 
Please excuse what I am about to say.....

TIRES DON EXITS!

Tires don't exist?! I knew it! We're in the Matrix. There is no tire, dammit!

I know it was just a typo, but it was too tempting.

As for our tier discussion... I main Raphael, but it's because I like the character, not so I can say "yeah, well you beat me with Ivy, so you suck. n00b." I'm hoping to see Raphael higher-tiered this time around, but I don't want him to be top-tier. I don't like using a common character. Upper-mid outta do it. Honestly, though, he'll still be my main regardless of whether he's god tier or trash tier.

I'd prefer, though, if they balanced the game enough to where there isn't even much of a tier list left. I know tiers are unavoidable, but a little extra balancing will go a long way, I think.
 
Tires don't exist?! I knew it! We're in the Matrix. There is no tire, dammit!

I know it was just a typo, but it was too tempting.

Its actually a running joke in the Smash community (in which I have no involvement, for the record) where someone posted that typo while trying to make the case that tiers didn't exist. I just had to get that out of my system. The desire kept bubbling up.
 
I dont think calling the low tier heroes cowards is nice. I love my low tiers. It makes me think when i play the game. I spend hours in training with Zas figuring out cool new tricks and wall combos(Btw none are ever guaranteed with Zas.) that do the same damage as a guaranteed combo i could find out with Amy or X in literally minutes. The only reason I can enjoy playing low tiers or even lower mids is because of the fact that i have tio e creative and learn combos that arent just handed to me . Now i dont just pick Zas Because he is low tier, i play him because i love scythes, But I am Damn glad he is low mid or low(Varies from person to person.) And i hope Zwei is not overpowered in the next game because he iis my main op or not.)
 
I really hope Tira goes up to at the very least a solid mid tier. If not upper mid. She has been chillen with the low tiers ever since she was implemented along with my other favorite character, Talim, who has also been doomed to that position since sc3. I really hope they show her some love, which it seems they have, and she is actually tournament worthy :)
 

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