Ivy matchups discussion and strategies

K0rN_b4LL said:
So you are saying do the unblockable cancel before these other moves? Wouldn't it be easier to just do the other move without the unblockable or is it some kind of bait or frame thing I'm not seeing?
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Yes. The 4b+k:G has a slight backstep so it will evade the 1st hit of the A and K series. The 4b+k:G lets you beat all options without needing to guess.
 
Be patient and don't whiff. Limit your grabs a bit, since he has one of the best duck punishes. Punish his 1K with 6B8K and his 3B with 1B BE to make his 50/50 oki a little less threatening. 3B and 214B are your friends, but beware of 44A. Keep your space, but limit your range pokes. It's one of Ivy's more difficult MUs.
 
KineticClash said:
Be patient and don't whiff. Limit your grabs a bit, since he has one of the best duck punishes. Punish his 1K with 6B8K and his 3B with 1B BE to make his 50/50 oki a little less threatening. 3B and 214B are your friends, but beware of 44A. Keep your space, but limit your range pokes. It's one of Ivy's more difficult MUs.
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Also don't be afraid to anticipate and step his 66B, it remains one of his keymoves and a lot of Pats will use it a lot more than 3B as it's safe and combo's for more damage. And look for patterns after 66B. it's only -2 and a lot of pats I know go for 236a/236ab/3KK mix-ups. Either step back and create room after 66B or if you think you can read his movement do it with either 3B or 6b8k.
 
Glad to know, it wasnt solely me being backward about it lol.
It seemed like everything he was doing was safe.
Cheers Kinetic and WhYYZ
 
I need major help with the Asty MU. I know this has been talked about before, but as tech has evolved, the MUs have done so too, at least a little.

The major things that frustrate me are:

Asty CE > Ivy CE
Asty throw game > Ivy throw game
Asty range > Ivy range
Asty GI game > Ivy GI game
Ivy 3B steps like 2% of Asty's verts
Ivy can be low grabbed out of 214B for a backthrow (not a HUGE deal, but still frustrating)

I can try to pressure and take advantage of Asty's slow attacks. But Ivy's pokes typically range from 20-40 damage, and if I use a vert at the wrong time, I get hit with 88B BE for half life. Since most of her quick horis are high, I risk getting hit with Asty's 60% health TC combo. Not to mention, because of his strange hurtbox, Ivy typically has to run forward when she attempts to grab Asty (unless you use CS) which sacrifices major frames. This prevents me from being able to fully utilize grab/3B mixups.

I feel like my game is reduced to knockdowns followed by ground pressure. And if Asty guesses right on the ground pressure, I have to back off and wait for another opening. I sit back and abuse WR A+B to prevent him using to many range attacks. So at this point it's basically a waiting game until someone messes up. Anyone have any suggestions for how I can better understand this MU?
 
Basically, if I get put against an Astaroth that knows his MUs I try to just poke him as safely as possible, e.g. wait for him to whiff something like maybe 22B and then use a long range attack like 6{B} or 1A from afar so he can't do anything to you like grab you.

As you said, being close up isn't really ideal since he can grab you while you crouch or duck your horizontal attacks, so you're best to stay back and let him attack first and then poke him. That's all I can say really.
 
KineticClash said:
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I usually JG the living shit of of that thing.
22B is JGable on reaction and is punishable with Tehzas.
3B 6b8 combo's on natural hit against Astaroth and if astaroth grabs you during your 3B it isn't that bad because his backthrow does less damage than his regular command throws.
Even though Astaroth can grab you out of 214B is pretty much safe to spam because he can't punish it at all.
 
This biggest thing Ivy has in this match up is 3B 6B8 combing normally on him. Most JG or GI into 3B combo. Also you get wake up for force a mixup. But like you said avoid using 3B (or 214b for that matter) at disadvantage since his moves still catch Ivy.

Usually you want to be in his face, because a ducked throw score Ivy big damage.
Another reason you want to be in his face is because Ivy has a very excellent poke game, 2K, 6b, 2A. 9B. Just keep harassing and changing your flow from aggressive to a defensive style to keep him guessing.

You can try playing at 6[ B] max range since he wont be able to reach but you have to be very careful as one wrong wiff move and he can punish with 22_88 B. Use 6[ B] to annoy him and make him step closer to you, when he does use that opportunity to also get closer so that you can fight in close range and be more effective. Try to avoid mid range battle with Asta as he alot better at that range than Ivy

Also abuse move like 3[A] since he very bad at punishing.
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These are some tidbits to know

I notice is when Asta GI attempts his command grabs JF or not, sometime they will not reach on Ivy because of Hitbox issue.

Ivy 66B is very good to throw in time to time if you anticipating his bullrush BE since you can block/Jg if 66B hits him. Also Ivy 2K stuffs his bullrush BE

9B/7B very spammable against him.
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KC I understand what you mean about waiting for mistakes, but in this match you have to be extremely careful of playing aggressively against him. Because 66K BE counters so much of Ivy move set
This match-up Ivy usually has to be more defensive and focuses on opportunities punishing. There are time when she can be aggressive but more likely than not she must be defensive here.
 
ivy vs nm stances. clash gave me an old list of his, but it was really lacking in terms of testing and barely accounted for half of the options nm has in stance. NSS [4] can really fuck ivy's options up. i'd kill to have something brainless against stance like bullrush or pat 236A. feel free to correct me if i'm missing anything

safe option for 3B/WR B: backstep. nothing but NSS A can reach you. it's blockable though. whiff punish anything else from nm. you're sacrificing punishment damage in order to not take a risk. sometimes the best risk is not taking a risk.

3(B)
4K*
- loses to NSS 4, immediate b:A
+ beats everything else
214B*
- loses to immediate b:A, delayed K
+ beats everything else. delayed 214B mindgame to beat everything but GS A
RCC 1K
- loses to immediate NSS K, NSS [4], NSS A+B (point blank only)
+ beats everything else (goes right under NSS A+B except at point blank)
WR B+K*
- loses to immediate NSS K, NSS [4]
+ beats everything else
FC 1B*
- loses to NSS K, NSS b:A, NSS [4]
+ beats everything else
FC 1(B)
- same as FC 1B, but beats NSS [4]
8A+B
- loses to delayed NSS K, NSS [4] (anywhere other than point blank)
+ beats everything else
4B*
- loses to immediate b:A
+ beats everything else
CE*
- loses to immediate NSS K, NSS [4], empty GS, GS A
+ beats everything else
214A
- loses to NSS A, NSS B NSS A+B, NSS [4] ~ G, empty GS. ducks but does not punish NSS K
+ beats NSS b:A, GS A


WR (B)
4K*
- loses to immediate b:A, NSS [4]
+ beats everything else. delayed 4K beats everything except for GS A/NSS [4], but does not punish WR B
214B*
- loses to immediate b:A, delayed NSS K
+ beats everything else. forces reverse mindgame of 3B/214B
3B*
- loses to immediate NSS K, NSS [4], delayed b:A
+ beats everything else
iFC 1B
- loses to NSS K, NSS b:A, NSS [4], GS A
+ beats everything else
iFC 1(B)
-same as FC 1B, but beats NSS [4]
1K
- loses to NSS [4], NSS A+B
+ beats everything else
8A+B*
- loses to NSS A+B, delayed NSS K, GS A, NSS [4] (anywhere other than point blank)
+ beats everything else
CE*
- loses to NSS K, NSS b:A, empty GS, GS A, NSS [4]
+beats everything else
214A
- loses to NSS A, NSS B, NSS A+B, NSS [4] ~ G, empty GS, GS B. does not punish NSS K
+ beats NSS b:A, GS A

44(B)
214B
-loses to immediate b:A, delayed NSS K, GS A (gets aGI'd, but ivy takes no damage), CE
+beats everything else
4K
-loses to NSS b:A, NSS A+B, GS A, CE, NSS [4] at tip block
+beats everything else
8A+B
-loses to immediate NSS K NSS A+B, GS A, NSS [4] at tip block
+beats everything else
FC 1B
-loses to NSS K, GS A, CE, trades with NSS b:A and NSS A+B
+beats everything else
FC A
-loses to NSS K (lol namco), NSS [4]
+beats everything else, including CE

66A
214B
-loses to GS A, CE, agA, 6A, 6K, 3K, 1K, 66K, and GS K tech steps it
+beats backstep(!) and everything else
3B
-trades with 6A, GS A (no followup on trade), loses to backstep, CE, 6K, 3K, 1K, 66K, NSS
+beats everything else
4K
-loses to GS K, backstep, CE, 3K, 1K, 66K, NSS
+beats everything else
2A
- loses to backstep, CE, NSS, GS B+K~G
+beats everything else
backstep
-loses to GS K, agA, and 6A
+steps everything else

only real answer for 66A is to duck it on reaction (i28). FC 1B punish for full launch

[A]
duck and wait. only have to watch for NSS A and A+B. FC 1B punish everything else. no real option select available

6(B)
immediate 6b8 beats out all NSS attacks and punishes 6B

4BB
JG first or second 3B, 6b8 punish

1A6
WR A*
+ beats everything
- does not punish 1A at tip range

66K6
2A
- does not punish 66K
+ punishes every option for 66K6
6B8*
- gets fucked by GS
+ punishes 66K
AA/[A]*
- does not punish 66K6 into crouch
+ punishes everything else

NSS [A]
same as WR B except ivy cannot punish NSS A

* - move also punishes without stance transition
 
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@KineticClash
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And what we get is a list of mostly my entries with some new ones that don't even include some of NM's most important stance entrances. Not to mention a lack of consideration for the newly discovered B+K cancel.

I made the list very hastily about a year ago a couple days before a tournament for my eyes only. I even warned Jan about it when I so graciously offered it to him. Nice to know you were so grateful <3
 
clash y u so mad baby <3

there is no consideration for the GS B+K~G cancel because it only comes into play with 33B. it does not make 1A or 66A any safer, but 33B is completely safe. which other move or option from stance did i forget to include? i don't think there's anything major left. your entries just didnt take NSS [4] into account which is a major problem for her. they also didn't take delayed attacks or GS A into account either. i just wanted to reaffirm with myself that ivy sucks vs nss.
 
vs 33B. 2A every time. if they block it, they're using GS B+K~G. it's a non-committal option that's not gonna get punished, but it will punish raw 33B and the GS transition.

clash, i just wanted to test it for myself. dont take it so serious.
 
jansauer said:
there is no consideration for the GS B+K~G cancel because it only comes into play with 33B. it does not make 1A or 66A any safer, but 33B is completely safe.
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You're spreading alot of misinformation. 66A6 GS cancel is just as safe as 33B. 66K6 GS cancel doesn't make it safe to generic 2As but it does make it recover fast enough to block some slower universal answers like Patroklos' 236AB.

Also you stated earlier that 6B8 punished NM's 6B. No, that move is only -10 on block and where is 44[B ]? You explicitly criticize KiniticClash's old list yet yours is sloppy imo. But don't mind me, I'm just a NM player who happened to wander in.
 
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