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Engared said:
NM is not a beginner character by any stretch of the imagination. No way in hell is he a beginner character.

However once you master NM, his tier placing starts to jump and he becomes absolutely a monster. Hes high risk reward, one of the best distance closers and has great spacing tools which lead to massive whiff punish. His throw range is by far the furthest normal throw in the game and his side/back and A+G throws are all amazing (some of the best in the game).

However dont look pass the lower tier characters, they arent as low tier as you think. Even rock is fearsome if you know how to play him well. Tira, Taki, Ralph, NM and a couple of others (some even say Maxi) all seem to be climbing tiers in the recent months as people discover hidden aspects of their gameplans.
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NM - pros
1. insane RO game
2. short move list makes him easy to learn.
3. 2 stances only make him easy to learn
4. great pressure
5. good mind games
6 great damage
7 great pushback
8 great range
9 great throws (long arms=distance)
10 moves easy to do
11 juggles and combos easy and very effective
12 awesome ground n pound
13 a few REALLY quick moves that seem to counter a hell of a lot of moves.
14 great A moves for anti-side-stepping
15 good guard breakers

NM cons
1 slower than most
2 short move list makes him somewhat predictable
3 best moves are punishable

I mentioned short move list twice, once on pro and once on con, because it's both a good and a bad thing, depending on how you look at it.

Given the above, there's not a doubt in my mind that he's easy, even for a beginner.

We do agree on 2 things, that NM is a monster, and low tiered are not so low as people think.
 
damn-I-Suck said:
NM - pros
1. insane RO game
2. short move list makes him easy to learn.
3. 2 stances only make him easy to learn
4. great pressure
5. good mind games
6 great damage
7 great pushback
8 great range
9 great throws (long arms=distance)
10 moves easy to do
11 juggles and combos easy and very effective
12 awesome ground n pound
13 a few REALLY quick moves that seem to counter a hell of a lot of moves.
14 great A moves for anti-side-stepping
15 good guard breakers

NM cons
1 slower than most
2 short move list makes him somewhat predictable
3 best moves are punishable

I mentioned short move list twice, once on pro and once on con, because it's both a good and a bad thing, depending on how you look at it.

Given the above, there's not a doubt in my mind that he's easy, even for a beginner.

We do agree on 2 things, that NM is a monster, and low tiered are not so low as people think.
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NM does not have a short move list. In fact, far from it. He has a short list of safe moves (safemare consists of 5-7 moves) but a short moves list, is a clear and emphatic "No"( I use every single one of his moves save for 2A, A2AA, 2B+K and 4B). NM also lacks a 12-13 frame interrupt which gives him a lot of problems with close range pressure. His backstep's recovery is also too unsafe and should ideally have a safer backstep like ivy or hilde (or they should nerf their backsteps). Though NSS evade is very useful, certain stance characters can pressure NM very well and makes it hard for him to get out. His soul gauge game is also very poor and if improved would make him much, much more powerful.

NM is not easy and you can ask the top NM players and they will all agree with me. To generate a decent mixup with NM requires a good amount of skill before it starts paying off and as NM's game relies on pressure, pressure, pressure and more pressure; you cannot give your opponent any room to breathe. This goes from grab, to flinch, to ground wake-up pressure. You let your opponent catch a breather and you are done! His damage though very, very high, is not in line with his unsafety and other characters generate too much damage from much safer options. You also have to have a perfect understanding of step guard, 8wr, spacing and full step before you can make up for his weaknesses and unlock his step whiff punish game. NM's ringout game is very strong but however its also insanely unsafe. I cannot tell you how many times i have gone for the ringout, only to be rung out myself.

What NM also lacks is a good fast (unseeable) knockdown low which most of the high tier characters have (Amy has 2B+K, Mitsu has 2KB etc). This makes his mixup game more difficult to use than most of the high tier characters as Nm has to learn to disguise his throw attempts.

Whats simple about NM are his inputs are relatively easy and do not require many strict timing inputs (however, iagA is still a b*tch for most players). This is unlike some characters such as Yoshi, Sets which may be tricky for a total beginner to learn.
 
NamuSkull said:
A few jerk statements for you.

1) Damn you suck.

2) Do you have PSN or LIVE?

3) Dost thou wish to challenge Pocky Yoshi?

4) Where do you live?

5) Namu Namu Namu Namu
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sadly, my ps3 is down ATM. Might be awhile b4 I can afford another one. (yeah I know laugh it off I'm poor).
Only time I get to play is on my friend's xbox360, and since he stopped paying for his online, we only play each other. Sorry dude, I wish I could.
 
While i can agree about the sisters, mitsu and amy, don't know much about lizzy and hilde. Sieg on the other hand I find Harder than NM. Sure you can press and hold A,B,K,A+B all day long and pretty much figure out most of his moves without going into the movelist. On the other hand, he's easily punishable in between a lot of moves with the stance transitions. It's also not always feasible to block in these stances, as I'm sure you are well aware. Given that, I feel like you really have to know what your doing with Sieg, esp against the faster characters. And the worst part is that a lot of these moves leave you in worse frame date if you don't go into stance by holding the button.

Sieg is easy to figure out the moves, but the moves involve a great deal of risky mind games.

Sieg is definitely not one of the harder characters to use by any means, but I'm surprised that you think NM is harder.
 
damn-I-Suck said:
sadly, my ps3 is down ATM. Might be awhile b4 I can afford another one. (yeah I know laugh it off I'm poor).
Only time I get to play is on my friend's xbox360, and since he stopped paying for his online, we only play each other. Sorry dude, I wish I could.
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Don't worry about it. Just do you, buddy.
 
damn-I-Suck said:
While i can agree about the sisters, mitsu and amy, don't know much about lizzy and hilde. Sieg on the other hand I find Harder than NM. Sure you can press and hold A,B,K,A+B all day long and pretty much figure out most of his moves without going into the movelist. On the other hand, he's easily punishable in between a lot of moves with the stance transitions. It's also not always feasible to block in these stances, as I'm sure you are well aware. Given that, I feel like you really have to know what your doing with Sieg, esp against the faster characters. And the worst part is that a lot of these moves leave you in worse frame date if you don't go into stance by holding the button.

Sieg is easy to figure out the moves, but the moves involve a great deal of risky mind games.

Sieg is definitely not one of the harder characters to use by any means, but I'm surprised that you think NM is harder.
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Its much easier to play Sieg safely than it is to play NM safely. Sieg's tools do not require an advanced understanding of the basics in order to be utilized.

And 3B catches out most lower level players. NM at low levels can get spammed to death by poky characters.
 
Ok guess I'll post here cause i can't make up my mind. I play Mitsu, Yoshi, Kilik and Asta, (Apart from Amy, Soph, Cass and Zas for fun). I want to learn a new character, and my three current options are, Setsuka, Nighty and Lizzy. Which character would it be most beneficial to learn in contrast to the characters I already know?

EDIT: Im Learning IVY instead :)
 
NM's quick moves, such as 4KK, 6K, or NSS K, or even 1K, all these moves give NM decent odds against the faster characters. NSS K is only 8 frames for gods sake, and I think 6K is like 14 frames.

Sieg's quick moves aren't as quick as NM's. This is why I find NM a whole lot easier to use against the faster ones. Not to mention it's also way easier to punish Sieg.

Do you also use Sieg Engared, because if you do, then I can respect your opinion more.

Coming from a person who uses both the slow guys, It's much easier to apply pressure (which is what NM is good at) than it is to apply mind games (which is Sieg's strength).

Looking at the frame data, generally speaking, Sieg is more unsafe, but the moves come a pinch faster, with more negative frames on guard.

So you say you can play a safe Sieg? The only way to do that is to NEVER go into a stance because, as you know, there all unsafe. I seriously doubt that playing this way will be effective anyway, your opponent will easily predict the same 5-7 moves, regardless of how fast and safe they are.
 
damn-I-Suck said:
Snip for size reasons.
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6K is the same as Siegfried's pretty much just a sliding knock down rather than a shakeable stun on CH. Both are highs with disadvantage on NH, minorly unsafe(rare to get punished though), and same speed. On block 4KK is super easy to duck which lets them feed you a big meaty punish, and you can't hit confirm a CH so they can bait it(I do this a lot vs online nightmares). Nightside Stance K is also very very unsafe(Most the cast gets a launcher I believe) and not hard to punish since it's a stance move and you can just watch for it. 1K is actually the best poke there and sieg has it too. Don't get me wrong Nighty's got pokes/interupts(3K, 66K6, iWS K, 11K are my favorites).

Sieg's fastest move is K, one frame faster at i13 where Nighty's is 14. Nightmare is more designed for pressure yeah, but Sieg can chip the hell out of you. Slayer seriously makes me hate his pokes more than the Sisters'. B6, 4K, 3K, a+kA(2A optional for combo damage and advantage). His WS K is just as good I think? Siegfried is more unsafe on paper and in stance, but punishing can be tough or impossible even for some of the cast with good spacing(Sieg's real strong suit).

At the end of your post you suggest that they can predict these moves outside of stance when that's really not the case. In fact most stance shennanigans are easier countered. At mid range he can control you pretty well and to a degree safely. agA controls step, so does 3A and a+kA. 3A keeps you from ducking, B6 and 1B doing the same. In my opinion Sieg is great for a begginer player if you're a turtle, enjoy the mind game aspect, or prefer to space out the opponent. Nightmare however is far more dynamic a character and takes a lot of time because you have to study your offence and ways characters can counter it, then try and find ways to nullify the counter. Really I find Sieg easier to play and understand. Plus he deals better SG damage, and has some good evasive moves. Unrelated Lizardman is SUPER BASIC and very powerful. He is really well rounded with great frames, plus due to his lack of anything too unique(save crawl) he allows you to focus on your own basics like stepping. He's the best begginner character to me.
 
Well at this point I'm beginning to think that I'm wrong on this NM/Sieg debate.

I learned Sieg first, in fact years before I touched NM. By the time I decided it was time to learn NM, I was already fluent with 4-5 characters (not beastly, just fluent). The point here is that I was already well familiar with the game in general when I learned him, I understood the concept of pressure and mind games, so NM seemed like a breeze to me. A friend of mine mains him and believe me when I tell you that he is downright tricky and terrifying. I learned a lot about NM very quickly in a short time from him. It wasn't long b4 I got better with NM than with the majority of the chars I use, so my natural thinking was to assume that NM is easy to learn, when in fact it was just the fact that I had tons of help.
I'd been using Sieg for years, and then all of a sudden after a month my NM was as good as my Sieg. Maybe NM just suits my personality better, I don't know. It definitely seemed like NM was easier to me, but then again what do I know?

Plus I think more people use NM than Sieg anyway, and so more things have been discovered about him, and when I see something amazing that someone can do with him, of course I feed off of that and learn.

So yeah, you guys are probably right and I'll stop debating this.
 
damn-I-Suck said:
NM's quick moves, such as 4KK, 6K, or NSS K, or even 1K, all these moves give NM decent odds against the faster characters. NSS K is only 8 frames for gods sake, and I think 6K is like 14 frames.

Sieg's quick moves aren't as quick as NM's. This is why I find NM a whole lot easier to use against the faster ones. Not to mention it's also way easier to punish Sieg.

Do you also use Sieg Engared, because if you do, then I can respect your opinion more.

Coming from a person who uses both the slow guys, It's much easier to apply pressure (which is what NM is good at) than it is to apply mind games (which is Sieg's strength).

Looking at the frame data, generally speaking, Sieg is more unsafe, but the moves come a pinch faster, with more negative frames on guard.

So you say you can play a safe Sieg? The only way to do that is to NEVER go into a stance because, as you know, there all unsafe. I seriously doubt that playing this way will be effective anyway, your opponent will easily predict the same 5-7 moves, regardless of how fast and safe they are.
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I play Sieg as my secondary and i play against 6 Siegs (ranging from medium to very high level siegs) in Australia and Singapore.

Also you have much to learn my young padawan about safe Sieg. It will require more than the time i have now to tell you how to do it.

Sieg's WR K has slower whiff recovery (relies on block stun for safety) than NM's WR K.
 
My only advice: Just don´t fight with Maxi, Seong Mina, Rock, Yun Seung and Talim. Zas, Taki and Nightmare aren´t that good imo as well. All other characters are at least OK or better.
 
I know how to play a safe Sieg, but that's not really my style, I prefer to use mind games that involve a lot of risk. I play very aggressively.

Is there a reason you feel the need to be condescending? "you have much to learn my young padawan about safe Sieg". Please don't talk down to like your my father or something. I have given you nothing but respect. Me may disagree on this game, but I highly respect you as a player. Having a different opinion does not mean I don't know how to play.

I'm starting to feel like when I originally suggested NM a beginner character, you took it as a personal attack against YOU. Just because someone uses an easy character does not make them a beginner. I realized now that I was getting into a pointless debate.

I admitted in my last post that I might be wrong, but I'm still not convinced.

For the most part, we agree on almost everything about NM. So I will leave it at that.
 
WTF?!?!

Dont tell him not to use Maxi, Mina, Rock, Yun, Talim. ALL are viable characters. Telling him they're low tier already sets a limit on how well they will perform as well as make them think other characters are "unbeatable" in certain matchups.

TAKI, YUN, MAXI can all be used, its simply knowing the other player, other character.

TIERS FUCK SHIT UP!!! PLAY WHO YOU LIKE and MAKE THEM THE BEST!!

I did this for Voldo. He went from mid/low tier post patch to TOP 3 EZ!! Anyone can win.

JAG - stop fucking with new players' minds....
 
D.I.N.O said:
WTF?!?!

Dont tell him not to use Maxi, Mina, Rock, Yun, Talim. ALL are viable characters. Telling him they're low tier already sets a limit on how well they will perform as well as make them think other characters are "unbeatable" in certain matchups.

TAKI, YUN, MAXI can all be used, its simply knowing the other player, other character.

TIERS FUCK SHIT UP!!! PLAY WHO YOU LIKE and MAKE THEM THE BEST!!

I did this for Voldo. He went from mid/low tier post patch to TOP 3 EZ!! Anyone can win.

JAG - stop fucking with new players' minds....
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There is nothing that anyone could do or say, that would convince me otherwise of the fact that ROCK CANNOT hang with the rest. The other ones you mentioned, sure I can agree with. But DEF not ROCK. Why pick ROCK when ASTAROTH is so much better in every way imaginable?
 
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