Punishment: Now You’ll Pay!

If you’ve ever been playing the game, and you’re just having… just a lot of trouble. Nothing seems to be working, you can’t penetrate your opponent’s defense, you lose and lose and you don’t know why.

If it’s ever happened to you, well, the million-dollar question is: Are you punishing?

If you are not punishing, you are going to lose! Besides, you want your revenge, don’t you? Don’t let your opponent get away!


Disadvantage and Punishment

If you’ve read the article on advantage and disadvantage, you’ll know that when a player is at disadvantage, they cannot do anything for the duration of the disadvantage. They can’t attack, they can’t move, and they most certainly cannot block.

Well, when there is enough disadvantage for one of your attacks to fit in- you can hit them!

Let me repeat that.

You can hit them for free and there is nothing they can do about it.


This is called “punishment”. That is to say, that the opponent has used a move that put him at severe disadvantage (“unsafe”), and as such, they are open to be punished for making that mistake.

Now, executing proper punishment is a very important skill to have, and that is because- it’s free damage! There’s no risk involved, you see the opportunity, you take it. There’s no mixup, no mindgame, no nothing. You’re open, pow, right in the kisser.

It’s damage, and it’s free. You’ve gotta take it! Don’t worry, it’s not like samples at Costco. Nobody’s watching, so take it all!

---

2/25/2013 UPDATE - Here's a supplementary video, explaining how to use practice mode to find and test punishment. I'd recommend you still read the rest of this article, but the video should help in visualizing the process.



Not Just Leather and Latex

Punishment is closely related to frame data. As such, it’s best to have the numbers in front of you when seeing if a move can be punished.

Let’s take for an example, Pyrrha vs. Pyrrha. (We’ll call them P1 and P2).

P2 does 1AA. 1AA is -22 on block.

P1 successfully blocks the low, then stand-guards the mid. Now, P2 is at -22, and likewise, P1 is at +22. P2 is open for punishment. What can P1 do?

P1 can hit with any move that is less than or equal to 22 frames. This means she can hit with AA (i11), BB (i14), 236B4 (also i14), 3B (i17), and even 9K (i22).

As you can see, P1 just got a bunch of options, while P2 is completely at P1’s mercy. (This is why you shouldn’t use unsafe moves recklessly- you’ll dramatically reduce your own options and leave yourself open if you make a mistake.)

Now, the question is, how will P1 make the most out of this opportunity?



Choose Your Weapon

So how do you choose which move you use to punish? That depends on a number of different factors.

First, you have to choose a move with a suitable speed. If you use moves that are too slow, you won’t get a punish at all, so that narrows down your choices a bit.

Second, you have to choose a move with enough reach. If you have a fast enough move but it doesn’t hit, your opponent will recover, and you won’t get your punish.

Third, you have to look at your current state. Are you standing, or are you crouching? If you are crouching, the moves you can use are limited to FC moves, While Rising moves, 236/214 moves, and moves that start with 6, 4, 66, or 44. It’s important to make note of this, because blocking lows means you have to use these moves. Blocking mids that force you into crouch can also restrict your punishing options.

From here things get a little tricky. There are two main schools of thought when it comes to punishment, and they are:

Max Damage

Or

Consistency


Let’s take Pyrrha for an example again. We’ll look at 236B.

236B is -18 on block. -18 is a lot of disadvantage, as a lot of moves can fit in that space (even standard 3B launchers).

If you were to go for max damage, you’d use a 3B here, and lead into a combo. Depending on who you’re playing you’d get some pretty good damage (50-100+).

But!

236B also has very short blockstun. This means that the -18 period almost starts immediately after the move comes out, meaning you don’t have a lot of time to react. In the worst case scenario, if you try for a 3B and you are late, it will get blocked, and you will be punished with a followup 236B! You will get punished for your punish.

The easiest thing to do is to use a move you can use easily, quickly, and without thinking. For most characters, this is a BB. BB doesn’t do half-life, but it does give frame advantage, it does do damage, and chances are you’ll be able to punish with BB every time, compared to using 3B where you might hit it some of the time.


Now, it depends on the camp you’re from, but in my book, winning all battles is more important than winning one battle. Stick to the easy, consistent punish, that you can do every day, on good days, on bad days, on days when you’re sick. Don’t go for max damage unless you are sure that you can do it- otherwise, you are only putting yourself at risk.

Of course, the ideal scenario is being able to output max damage all of the time. If you can do that, then do that and don’t look back. For the rest of us, being sensible and acknowledging one’s limits helps you make do with what you have.



How to Punish

So that’s the theory behind punishment- but what about actually doing it? There isn’t much use in knowing what’s unsafe if you can’t actually get free hits.

In reality, proper punishment requires you to be able to recognize a move, react in time, and choose the proper retaliation. You should choose your retaliation in advance, far before the fight has begun (which is why in some Soul Arenas there are punishment lists for your perusal).

First, you have to recognize that your opponent has used an unsafe move, and that you have blocked it. This comes from matchup study, frame data, training mode, and experience. Every move has a distinctive animation, and it’s up to you to recognize this animation and thus the opportunity that comes along with it.

Second, you need to react. You need to input the move you are going to use as a punish in time. Don’t be late!

When you block an attack, a white flash or hit-spark will appear at the point of contact. This will make a distinctive sound of metal clashing. The light and the sound are your signal to begin inputting your punishment.

Because there are different amounts of blockstun on different moves, the timing can be variable when it comes to punishments, but generally you want to input your punishment as soon as possible. Try setting it up in training mode using the record function, with Movement 1 Stand All Guard, and Movement 2 Replay – Record (whatever number you choose).

You may want to practice your punishment to get a sense of the right timing for punishing certain moves. If you know that a move is punishable, and that there are no spacing issues, but your retaliation keeps getting blocked, just keep trying. Adjust your input time to be earlier or later, and try different timings until you start hitting it consistently.

You have 20 frames, or a 1/3rd of a second until the entire animation ends to input your punishment, so make use of the buffer window. Remember, you are trying to hit your opponent before they recover. Don’t wait until they finish their move- hit them while they’re vulnerable!



Punish No Matter What

Now, normally, when you think of unsafe moves, -16 and up, you think of a big punish, a big chunk of damage.

Taking these big leaps in life is good, but you also need to pay attention to small punishment opportunities as well. If you can fit in a 2A, or a simple K, or a BB, do it.

It’s important not to neglect your punishes- even if it’s just for 10 points of damage.

Why?

When you punish your opponent, what this represents is a shift in momentum. The other guy has been bearing down on you, applying pressure, then you see an opening and you hit him. Now that you have the advantage, you subtly change the situation.

Even if you punish with something that leaves you at disadvantage, most players will react negatively to getting hit. The mere act of punishing, even with something simple, causes “mental damage”. It serves as a way to break your opponent’s rhythm and stop his current train of thought. While he’s confused, you can take the opportunity to start up your own offense, or lead him into a trap.

Every little bit counts! Take what you can get, and at the same time, don’t let your opponent have anything of yours. When you create an imbalance in your favor, you will consistently win.


Pay What You Owe.jpg

In Closing

Anybody can attack. However, a good defense is a skill, and a coveted one at that. A good defense enables you to rapidly shift your momentum and allows your offense to shine- but more importantly, if you have a good defense and can consistently punish your opponent’s mistakes, you may not even need to have an offense in the first place.

Remember, attacking involves risk. Applying mixups involves risk. Moving involves risk.

Punishing does not involve risk (at least if it is applied correctly).

When you are taking less risks than your opponent, and still getting damage, you will easily outpace him just by waiting for his luck to run out.

Punish your opponents to the fullest. You will find that some players will end up destroying themselves, and all you have to do is pick up the pieces.
 
Break it up.

I'm the kind of fighter that does everything in a single round(except GI), if I want to JG a few attacks I will, if i want to side step an obvious vertical i will. Sometimes I just stand on my ground rather than risking a sidestep an getting hit by a mid horizontal.
Just FYI, friend. Just Guarding isn't everything.

I used to think the game was about hitting Just Frames, so back in SCIV I religiously practiced Amy 66:B, 236K:A, and later Mitsurugi b:A and k:B.

But the game isn't about Just Frames, and it's not about Just Guard. They're just tools.

Sp1d3r was referring to the variable advantage gained from JG. You may get -13 off a successful JG, and only an AA punish or a mixup. Compare to stepping to cause a whiff, which could get you a full 3B combo with all the fixings.


The game is less about doing what you want, and more about making the right decision. Of course, that is subjective. But, you shouldn't attempt to employ variety just for the sake of variety. That's not efficient.
 
It's almost like this is nothing new since the dawn of time- however my previous statement still stands: this gun b good....

However, it shouldn't be good in a thread with actual info in it, with hard work done by a worthwhile community member.

Edit: ninja'd by said worthwhile community member.
 
Sorry to change the subject back, I keep meaning to clarify my original post but getting distracted...

I asked about punishing 2KB because I find 2KB very hard to punish on block, only because I almost never block it in the first place. I'm pretty sure if 2KB were safe on hit, it would be OP (as an unseeable 48 damage low). The only thing that stops good Mitsu players from spamming it is its unsafety (?) on hit. So, I wanted to make sure that you weren't advising people (me) to try to consistently block 2KB and then punish it, because I feel like you'd just end up eating a buffet of whatever Mitsu does to people who don't block mids...
 
Sorry to change the subject back, I keep meaning to clarify my original post but getting distracted...

I asked about punishing 2KB because I find 2KB very hard to punish on block, only because I almost never block it in the first place. I'm pretty sure if 2KB were safe on hit, it would be OP (as an unseeable 48 damage low). The only thing that stops good Mitsu players from spamming it is its unsafety (?) on hit. So, I wanted to make sure that you weren't advising people (me) to try to consistently block 2KB and then punish it, because I feel like you'd just end up eating a buffet of whatever Mitsu does to people who don't block mids...

I'd say, train yourself to punish it with 3B on block, as that is a universal punisher against it. On hit, use a quick BB against it, or use a punishing move.
Even on the trasition to mist, in all, he is always punishable.
 
I'd say, train yourself to punish it with 3B on block, as that is a universal punisher against it. On hit, use a quick BB against it, or use a punishing move.
Even on the trasition to mist, in all, he is always punishable.

Well, that's exactly what I do (but replace BB with B6, I play Sieg). My point is, I rarely ever BLOCK it in the first place, and I don't think you're supposed to try to block it very often. It's kind of like Cervy's 1AB, I was told you don't want to try too hard to block 1AB because you'll end up eating things that taste a lot worse.
 
My point is, I rarely ever BLOCK it in the first place, and I don't think you're supposed to try to block it very often.
You are right. Don't block low unless you have a good reason.

It's just numbers. You're looking at 50 or less damage for any given low (well, + oki in some cases), or "%^&*ing ouch" for any mid.

Now, the thing is, if you know the low is really unsafe to use, and you know the person you're playing against is the type to spam lows (I am one of these players, coincidentally), then it's about watching your opponent.

Read the pattern, block that low, and then %^&* him up.


Of course, your retaliation should be planned. Don't duck, block, and then... throw, or worse yet, do nothing. If you're taking the risk of ducking (or stepping or backstepping or JG/GIing), fully commit to that.
 
Read through, good stuff as always. But I'm a bit concerned as to why you immediately jump to leather and latex. It wasn't on my mind until you brought that up lol.
 
Nice read Drake! I would suggest using the Wiki to see what your punishment options from -11 and up are. That way you can choose your best punishment for said - frames. Also look at what frames your punishment choice leave you at too understand your options on hit. For instance most 2a on hit leave at +6 or better so that's a lot of frame advantage and really opens your post punishment options.
 
Yeah, these articles are awesome. Each one dives deeper and deeper into the SoulCalibur uh, soul. Thank you Drake, we appreciate them!

Punishment is a bit of an iffy area for me because of the variable blockstun from opponents' attacks. Sometimes you can input right after the attack finishes and other times you have to punish right away after the block "sparks" (when you hear the weapon "clank" effect).

A big issue for punishment is not only timing but also spacing and pushback (and the forced-crouch) like Drake eluded to . For instance, Natsu's Shadow Gate A:6 is an i10 punisher but pushback from moves like Nightmare's 22AA or 3AA makes it unviable (well unless the Just Guard is employed of course).

However, when flipping to the other side of the coin, I love abusing moves that are hard to punish such as Natsu's AAB or 66B due to pushback (or the aforementioned 22AA or 3AA from Nightmare). If the opponent doesn't punish me for it, they've just given me an invitation to spam those moves some more over and over until they are dead and buried.
 
Thanks for another well-written guide. It all seems really simple, but when I think about it, a lot of these concepts you've been talking about I really haven't been using... Or at least not very well. You've inspired me to start to try to learn frame data for the characters, which has always kind of scared the hell out of me. Are all the frames in the wiki current? Just wondering if anything's left over from pre-patch.
 
Are all the frames in the wiki current?
They should be.

Don't let frames intimidate you- they're just information that leads to the discovery of options, which helps you make an informed decision.

Memorization of frames isn't necessary (though it tends to happen when you start studying this sort of thing), and most of the time actually looking at frames isn't necessary if you have a general understanding of advantage and disadvantage.

What I use frames for the most is when I review my saved replays (when I lose). I look at what my opponent is doing (what moves they're using) and then look at the frames. Oh, I was positive here, I could have attacked. Oh, this gives advantage on block. Oh, this is pretty heavy disadvantage, I could have forced a mixup.


You should look at all of the frames for your character so that you know what you're working with. But as for other characters, it's on a case-by-case basis.

I would only study other characters if I encountered those characters often, and I lost or got caught in tricks.

Basically, don't overwhelm yourself, just use what you need. Make the frames work for you.
 
Sorry to change the subject back, I keep meaning to clarify my original post but getting distracted...

I asked about punishing 2KB because I find 2KB very hard to punish on block, only because I almost never block it in the first place. I'm pretty sure if 2KB were safe on hit, it would be OP (as an unseeable 48 damage low). The only thing that stops good Mitsu players from spamming it is its unsafety (?) on hit. So, I wanted to make sure that you weren't advising people (me) to try to consistently block 2KB and then punish it, because I feel like you'd just end up eating a buffet of whatever Mitsu does to people who don't block mids...
Given that it can be stepped to the left, blocking it is one of the weaker options.
 
They should be.

Don't let frames intimidate you- they're just information that leads to the discovery of options, which helps you make an informed decision.

Memorization of frames isn't necessary (though it tends to happen when you start studying this sort of thing), and most of the time actually looking at frames isn't necessary if you have a general understanding of advantage and disadvantage.

What I use frames for the most is when I review my saved replays (when I lose). I look at what my opponent is doing (what moves they're using) and then look at the frames. Oh, I was positive here, I could have attacked. Oh, this gives advantage on block. Oh, this is pretty heavy disadvantage, I could have forced a mixup.


You should look at all of the frames for your character so that you know what you're working with. But as for other characters, it's on a case-by-case basis.

I would only study other characters if I encountered those characters often, and I lost or got caught in tricks.

Basically, don't overwhelm yourself, just use what you need. Make the frames work for you.

Thanks again, man. That seems a lot more rational than my shotgun approach. XD
 
Punishing is a bad mechanic, i explain here http://8wayrun.com/threads/punishment-discussion-good-or-bad.15064/

Punishing > how noobs think they are skilled.

You are wrong. Its a wonderful mechanic that increases the variability of your moveset. Its not just a black and white dichotomy of unsafe vs safe, as there is the magnitude (frames), situational (spacing/pushback) and matchup (opponent's fastest moves). If you have "unsafe" moves, you can give them really cool properties like being super fast, built in TC, strong tracking, good guard gauge damage.. etc.

Also, your erroneous thoughts hinges on the fact you THINK people are patting each other claiming punishing takes skill. That doesn't happen very often. Missing out on free damage is actually an area of critique rather than
celebrating something that is expected.
 

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