Raphael General Discussion / Q&A
- Thread starter WuHT
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- #762
Reptile
Soul Calibur V
Raph has all the tools to get out of pressure. He should be the one pressurizing. Not a scary pressure but an annoying one.
You mean pokes and stuff to get my opponent to attack? I can do that just fine. I just have a problem when characters are up close and using pressure against me. I tend to stand and block looking for some way to counterattack, which I know isn't good most of the time. I have a hard time against Maxi, Voldo, Mitsurugi, and Patroklos because of this.
Mandritti
[09] Warrior
Well don't try to counterattack. Just live. EDIT: Except Maxi. spend 4000 hours with Maxi strings. Beat them on naked prediction and confidence (plus familiarity with Raph's moveset), plus some transitions have nonintuitive defenses.
Firstly, the opponent will know you're looking for that counterattack, gives you the first situation you're at +, then interrupts you or JGs you anyway. The opponent can know you think this, and if he's experienced he's seen all those moves 1000 times before.
(here you might go "well yeah but tourney pressure" but my point is, no, you have to not bend to the pressure. That's the only way.)
My strategy for dealing with the same question is not to have answers prepared but to have a way of thinking about the situation so that, when it happens, I am thinking in the right way . I will invent the answer that works then. I love actual setups on offense, though.
I look for specific things too, but do you not agree with me? The situation is the same as when you're at + with momentum - it's ' What is the scariest thing I can do right now?' 'What will make the opponent the most uncomfortable?' And unless he's comboing you, there's always something. When you go "what will get this off me" or "how will I hit him" you are compromising. Before even critcising that you are looking for a Sweeping Generalization, you are compromising, when you know that your best tool for the job is your best chance.
You're better off hoping to JG - than to go for Raph's CH potential. Learn the 6 frame (10 millisecond) G stutter.
You can never let the rival define anything about your mindset, at any time. Don't be random, but remain confident that with a life bar there is something you can do that is just as valid now as it would have been to get you a Perfect. All that matters hasn't changed - where is this player's , this strategy's, this style's weakness.
Specific tips:
Na but seriously,
how did I get so many fonts in this post?!?
Firstly, the opponent will know you're looking for that counterattack, gives you the first situation you're at +, then interrupts you or JGs you anyway. The opponent can know you think this, and if he's experienced he's seen all those moves 1000 times before.
(here you might go "well yeah but tourney pressure" but my point is, no, you have to not bend to the pressure. That's the only way.)
My strategy for dealing with the same question is not to have answers prepared but to have a way of thinking about the situation so that, when it happens, I am thinking in the right way . I will invent the answer that works then. I love actual setups on offense, though.
I look for specific things too, but do you not agree with me? The situation is the same as when you're at + with momentum - it's ' What is the scariest thing I can do right now?' 'What will make the opponent the most uncomfortable?' And unless he's comboing you, there's always something. When you go "what will get this off me" or "how will I hit him" you are compromising. Before even critcising that you are looking for a Sweeping Generalization, you are compromising, when you know that your best tool for the job is your best chance.
You're better off hoping to JG - than to go for Raph's CH potential. Learn the 6 frame (10 millisecond) G stutter.
You can never let the rival define anything about your mindset, at any time. Don't be random, but remain confident that with a life bar there is something you can do that is just as valid now as it would have been to get you a Perfect. All that matters hasn't changed - where is this player's , this strategy's, this style's weakness.
Specific tips:
- Counting a frame never helped me beat anything but the ditto. Planning to act on the first frame available just because you know exactly how much + you have -- not for this char, his mids are shit. You do not have Mitsu BB. I only strictly predict into a solution, or I wait for hesitation into an ambiguous (frame) situation, where I fight like I do at neutral: "you thought you could hit me? trolololo". And if the opponent keeps it coming and I never feel a prediction...? Then I fucking take it, die, and remember some of that.
- 2K proactively. Dat spacing. (Not recommended against Pyrrha, Patsuka, Astaroth, Ezio, or beast-men)
- I was going to mention this so it goes here... I find I am vastly aided by the degree to which I can clearly and distinctly imagine the complete model movement for the opponent's attacks. If I actually know it right down to being able to mime it (albeit clumsily), I feel much more confident reacting to it and challenging it (when predicted or not). Leg movements seem to matter little , arm positions are MAJOR for interrupts vs whiffs. And Viola 's arms hate throws, though she shouldn't be vulnerable to an i17 interrupt with those mindgames.
Tl; dr
This has been another 'Mandritti spews Wine In Front Of Me ' for obvious shit and stuff of which he has no experienceNa but seriously,
- Accurately memorize the movements of every character command distinctly
- Count frames, but they won't save you
- I personally balance passivity and defense with the genuine belief that I can punish aggro hard, or I'd drop the character. What is your 'proof' that you have a chance?
- Think about 'what is the worst (for rival) I can do', never compromise
- The brain learns well with instant and gross correction. Get as close as you can to verbalizing your belief just before you are given 'the facts' - what you think is the opponent's "weakness" upon which you are justifying using an attack.
- Learn the 10 millisecond
stutter for JG
how did I get so many fonts in this post?!?
I love this Soul Arena. Thank you so much Mandritti for such a detailed response. I'm going to respond to your post based on your TL;DR; not that I didn't read the whole post (seriously: I must have spent at least 30 minutes studying your post and relating that to my gameplay, and I'm about to spend a significant amount of time analyzing it so that I can respond well).
1. I actually think this is one of the major things holding me back. I've been using Raphael for the majority of my playtime (I used Xiba originally since I figured he'd be like Kilik, and I experiment with ZWEI from time to time), so I don't have enough experience with other characters. What I'm going to do to fix this is to spend a serious amount of time with each character so that I'll at least know what each character can do. I'm gonna start with the four characters I have the most problem with (even though I despise playing Maxi, it's a necessary evil).
2. I personally feel like I don't respect my frames well enough. Like sometimes I'll use throws when I'm quite negative. It makes sense when I'm getting stepped all the time, but my opponent trips me up with a CH. Or I won't keep up the pressure when I have the frame advantage. I use the 22B>2A mixup all the time, but I leave 2A's on hit un-mixuped all the time. I think that's me trying to find a quick solution without really thinking through it, which may mean that I'm thinking too quickly for the pace of the game. I think here I need to make a stronger effort to focus while playing, which is actually something I've been working on recently.
3. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this to be honest. Are you asking me to ask myself why I choose to play Raphael and whether or not I think I have a chance with him? Part of the reason why I play him is because I like his character personally, but I think the main reason I have spent my time with Raph is because I just love playing him. I love poking people with his 33B. I love outsmarting players with Prep. I love that his combos aren't based on launchers. I love his long range whiff punishers (especially 66(B), that never gets old). He's just a really fun and great package to me. I do think that I have a strong chance with Raphael, but I realize that I need to put in more work to be successful than I have been.
If you meant something else, I'm sorry for not understanding you.
4. From my understanding, this falls in line with 1. somewhat. I need to assess my opponents weakness from a character and player standpoint, and abuse that weakness, correct? I've also been working on reading my opponent better, so this is good to hear. Your advice on never compromising is also something that I need to do. Exploiting weaknesses is the most damage potential that Raph can get (or any character, for that matter), so it makes sense to be striving for it at all times.
5. Correct myself as I fight so that I can adapt to wrong judgments of my opponent's weakness. Definitely important and goes with my focusing work. Will fix.
6. I've been avoiding putting in more time with this for a while, as I know it's gonna take an immense amount of work. It's no excuse though. I'll emphasize this in my training.
Thank you again for the response. If you're ever on Xbox Live, we should play sometime. I'd love to learn from you.
flashismyfriend
[08] Mercenary
Those tips are really going to help my game. Thanks! Although I dont want to do the stutter because I consider it an exploit. And Leonyx, i usually wrB out of 2A if that helps you any... But I'll warn you that I'm not all that great. So what other mixups come off of 22B beside 2A and 2K? I'm just aking because I usually never think of anything to do in time so I just 1A after they fall.
- Moderator
- #767
Reptile
Soul Calibur V
So much optimism in here. That is wonderful.
The mixup comes after 22B>2A. You have +8 on hit, so you have plenty of options. Generally, you should either go for a throw to catch step or standing block, or you can use a strong vertical such as 236B to catch ducking. WR B is the safest option after the 2A, since it can't be QS'd either as there isn't enough frames for the opponent to do so. This mixup works whenever you hit 2A, also.
- Moderator
- #769
Reptile
Soul Calibur V
661K is a also a tech trap after 22B for 50ish damage and neutral. I find it quite hard to do though but I'm probably just not used to it.
By the way I found a way to deal with people that ducks all the time against Raph cause they know he has no launchers and it works well in general against him.
Introducing "663K, BE". By doing this, you can run to someone and instantly do the move that deals 75/85 damage in an instant. This will teach em not to duck carelessly. +8 on block if they stay standing. I have learned to love this move as one of Raph's best moves by far. Also it looks so s.w.a.g.
By the way I found a way to deal with people that ducks all the time against Raph cause they know he has no launchers and it works well in general against him.
Introducing "663K, BE". By doing this, you can run to someone and instantly do the move that deals 75/85 damage in an instant. This will teach em not to duck carelessly. +8 on block if they stay standing. I have learned to love this move as one of Raph's best moves by far. Also it looks so s.w.a.g.
kAb
[12] Conqueror
what is this 6 frame jg stutter you speak of. pressing G every 6 frames? is this attempting to get a jg and then guarding to protect yourself from slower attacks? or is it pressing G every 6 frames hoping you will get the JG on one of them. if its the latter, i thought that method was disproved by nooodalls.
Real_Bojack
[10] Knight
Yes, I'm interested in this too. Are you picking up Raph kAb?
kAb
[12] Conqueror
nope, i just randomly browse other SA's for tidbits of info. the more you know and all that.
are you on PSN or live?
are you on PSN or live?
Real_Bojack
[10] Knight
Takin' it to the PM's.
Mandritti
[09] Warrior
The JG stutter is people just noticing that the rule on JG means that tapping G into pressing it again exactly 6 frames later maximizes the use of the JG window while giving you guard if you miss the JG by too early.
The JG flash is long enough you can still release your G-button in time to drop guard for whatever punish, right, but if you didn't JG you have guard up "seamlessly" after the JG window.
Diagrammatically*, with C being before the G input,
-C -| -------------- --- A --- ---------------------- | D -| -- B ------
---- | --------- --------| ------- +6 frames+ - ----| - - |------------
input , release input , ................ (x) , input
You're covered for guarding the whole time; in region -A- because of JG window, in region -B- because you're in the G state. You're reducing the size of the -D- span of frames to zero.
You still disable the JG option for the 29 frames or whatever. If you cut into the A region, you're just reducing the window in which a JG will activate and obtain only a G.
EDIT: And 6 frames, at 60 frames/s, is 100 milliseconds, or "10 centiseconds", the quantity you'd actually see on a stopwatch that shows you two digits after the seconds.
*this diagram is incomplete; I've assumed you press G for exactly 1 frame. Rather, there is a span, call it -F-, which precedes -A-, in which you may hold G for up to 4 frames (the JG "tap" rule). The span -A- is the 6 frames of JG state.
---
k, on #3, it uses some concepts from my background in computation, and dynamical systems.
If you strategize to one 'objective', then you'll maximize that objective. But some actually good "goals" or "states" are impossible to state as a single objective - rather, only as the mediation of two (or more) inherently opposed extremes.
When speaking, for instance, you want to say what's true (putting aside malicious language). But also, you want to say what is economical - understood quickly, and used in relevant context However, each thing you leave out of a statement is a factor that, technically, reduces its absolute truthfulness. And yet, to be completely true, you have to say infinitely many things.
Neither of those two 'goals' (truth, economy) is the uttermost valued 'good' in the scenario. The good is "balancing both" even though they are logically opposed to each other. Somehow, by using other measures, people intuit how much to weight either one.
Theorists came up with dynamical systems theory to get more precise ways of talking about how processes can automate these balancings and middle-ground-findings - and to explain processes in nature that use it (for instance, our own use of language as just mentioned; sorry I don't know of any more purely physical example offhand).
I described in my post my emphasis on defense as how I bedrock my entire mindset... but noticed that it plays off of my belief that I have an advantage to interrupt somewhere. The two are opposites, but I look for when to listen to one or the other. My adherence to either one prevents me from hitting the extreme of the other - where I would be turtling, or I would think too highly of my chances to be an aggressor.
edit: I don't want to get hit, but sometimes, I think my best chance to live, is dash up and throw you. Or BB confirm B, or 2A or whatever. I don't know yet how to put it, the difference between this, and going "I think my thing will be faster NYAAAHHG! *tries poke*" But I feel one.
I just have a bunch of abstract ideas about what can work. I still suck. Not technically proficient enough, and nowhere near fast-thinking enough to beat someone who concentrates on doing good sequences.
The JG flash is long enough you can still release your G-button in time to drop guard for whatever punish, right, but if you didn't JG you have guard up "seamlessly" after the JG window.
Diagrammatically*, with C being before the G input,
-C -| -------------- --- A --- ---------------------- | D -| -- B ------
---- | --------- --------| ------- +6 frames+ - ----| - - |------------
input , release input , ................ (x) , inputYou're covered for guarding the whole time; in region -A- because of JG window, in region -B- because you're in the G state. You're reducing the size of the -D- span of frames to zero.
You still disable the JG option for the 29 frames or whatever. If you cut into the A region, you're just reducing the window in which a JG will activate and obtain only a G.
EDIT: And 6 frames, at 60 frames/s, is 100 milliseconds, or "10 centiseconds", the quantity you'd actually see on a stopwatch that shows you two digits after the seconds.
*this diagram is incomplete; I've assumed you press G for exactly 1 frame. Rather, there is a span, call it -F-, which precedes -A-, in which you may hold G for up to 4 frames (the JG "tap" rule). The span -A- is the 6 frames of JG state.
---
k, on #3, it uses some concepts from my background in computation, and dynamical systems.
If you strategize to one 'objective', then you'll maximize that objective. But some actually good "goals" or "states" are impossible to state as a single objective - rather, only as the mediation of two (or more) inherently opposed extremes.
When speaking, for instance, you want to say what's true (putting aside malicious language). But also, you want to say what is economical - understood quickly, and used in relevant context However, each thing you leave out of a statement is a factor that, technically, reduces its absolute truthfulness. And yet, to be completely true, you have to say infinitely many things.
Neither of those two 'goals' (truth, economy) is the uttermost valued 'good' in the scenario. The good is "balancing both" even though they are logically opposed to each other. Somehow, by using other measures, people intuit how much to weight either one.
Theorists came up with dynamical systems theory to get more precise ways of talking about how processes can automate these balancings and middle-ground-findings - and to explain processes in nature that use it (for instance, our own use of language as just mentioned; sorry I don't know of any more purely physical example offhand).
I described in my post my emphasis on defense as how I bedrock my entire mindset... but noticed that it plays off of my belief that I have an advantage to interrupt somewhere. The two are opposites, but I look for when to listen to one or the other. My adherence to either one prevents me from hitting the extreme of the other - where I would be turtling, or I would think too highly of my chances to be an aggressor.
edit: I don't want to get hit, but sometimes, I think my best chance to live, is dash up and throw you. Or BB confirm B, or 2A or whatever. I don't know yet how to put it, the difference between this, and going "I think my thing will be faster NYAAAHHG! *tries poke*" But I feel one.
I just have a bunch of abstract ideas about what can work. I still suck. Not technically proficient enough, and nowhere near fast-thinking enough to beat someone who concentrates on doing good sequences.
youngfox
[10] Knight
k u guys were right about 2k being pretty chill, im surprised by its utility.
Also reptile what happened? our schedules never seem to sync
Also reptile what happened? our schedules never seem to sync
- Moderator
- #777
Reptile
Soul Calibur V
Of course I'm always right when I give advice. Especially in a gloomy SA. And, what happened is that you got online earlier to play SSF4 after 15 days of absence.
youngfox
[10] Knight
i woulda msged u for a game but my dumb ass thought u were in a vs match and not a player match. i was playing sf to practice for the 25th anniversary tourney. if u see me on just msg me for a match. it dosnt matter what im playin , i usually am always down for SC
- Moderator
- #779
Reptile
Soul Calibur V
Roger that. Same here.
Gamegenie222
[10] Knight
So I had a crack session vs DrakeAldan's Pat online earlier for at least 1 hour, 30 minutes today. Got bodied by his Pat and couldn't play my usual game plan cause of Pat being up in my face all the time and mixups. Any tips vs Pat?