Raphael : Patch Changes and Discussion

[Solid_Altair]

:D thats why I like using 236b, i feel like I get crapped on up close, and many times when I try 3(b), a (b) it whiffs because I misjudge distance.

It happens. Sometimes you can know before hand, depending on the attack you just blocked. Aeon's 66K (I think), for instance, looks like it allows the 3(B)A(B), but the push back makes the A whiff... just barely. After a while, I started to adapt and use the 3(B)BB instead, against that move. Sometimes I still forget and whiff the A, though -_-

 

[LAU]

General feeling of 1.02 patch now that I played more.

is raphael nerfed? yes.

to what degree? not much in my opinion.... I can see how others see it differently

to me the biggest change for me is really 22B to 3(B) gone... and SE A on block is now -6.... those are the biggest nerfs for me... probably true for most of you as well... but the other changes like SE B doesn't really affect me much since the way i've been using SE B doesn't seem to have too much of an impact.

Aside from the above nerfs... the back dash nerf doesn't seem to effect my gameplay much... despite the fact i do back dash a lot especially with raph.... but i guess before i didn't do back step G much with raph....

I like how prep BBB and prep K CH is improved does put a new 'threat' to raph's game which wasn't really there before.... in a way i do feel this is a big buff for him... which is why i don't feel he's been nerfed much (IN MY OPINION)... obviously i would much rather have the 22B that we had before.. but this new raph with a 'stronger' prep game isn't bad either.


-LAU

 

[Belial]

Actually 22_88B needed nerf I think, it was a bit too good. However Raph overall could use a buff (

 

[darkfender]

The harsh part of the nerf was SEA ...that have always been a raph staple move >____< that made raph un playable.
In order to have the stance work you need SEB to track at least steps (not QS) and SEA to stay neutral on block at that point beng an high would still be good.
So opponent cannot step and duck.

Otherwise keep seA mid and neutral just to give raph few options to control space.
Also remind that 22B requires a qs and that is not good....old 22B,B:B was also one of raph best moves

I mean if we start to debate on wich moves need nerfs because OP we could start to delete half cast because every character is made of OP moves in scV.

Raph had only 2 (seB and 22B) and both got nerfed so basically raph is the only "balanced" character....and that nakes him the worst.

Only nerf it should ve had was seB but giving something in exchange...he got nothing he lost more than all (1B nerf really?).

 

[Solid_Altair]

@darkfender

He got nothing?

The new CH stuns are something. And the lower disadvantage when your opponent blocks 6Bb(BE) or PrepBb(BE) is also useful.

 

[PrettyLady]

I'm sure this has been explained elsewhere in this thread, but I'm a busy lady, and don't have much time to look.
But when I use prep bbb ch, does the ch stun only work if the last move hits? I know that if I were to do 4(b) prep bbb, the stun would continue, but if I just did prep bbb, with the first hitting on ch, is it going to stun on the last hit?

 

[coroso4]

Yeah the crumple only works if they're already stunned (like after 4(b)) or get hit by the last b on counter. But the prep bbb does not stun after CH22K which is dumb

 

[DigitalCount]

I'm sure this has been explained elsewhere in this thread, but I'm a busy lady, and don't have much time to look.
But when I use prep bbb ch, does the ch stun only work if the last move hits? I know that if I were to do 4(b) prep bbb, the stun would continue, but if I just did prep bbb, with the first hitting on ch, is it going to stun on the last hit?

Nope. CH has to occur on the final hit, but a stun move like 4B or SE B translates the CH properties throughout the combo (for whatever reason, CH 22K does not do this despite being a stun move). In the event of getting prep BB on CH, just recognize the spark and do the BE if you have meter. If not...then BBB it is.
-DC

EDIT: Coroso4 is apparently part of Natsu's clan of ninjas...

 

[darkfender]

@solid altair
I cannot follow you:
You play a character who sucks without CE and than you say he is good because his BE is good on BLOCK....
Wasting bars on block is not a good idea and opponent would happily trade a punisher for CE damage potential.


The stun is coreographic but without CE it does less than old combos but its more risky....and i would say lot less considering that 6BB,B stuns will connect only if opponent really sucks or think against raph he can just play bad and win the same...on the other hand on block is unsafer....

I mean as long as you play in training mode with 2 full CE bars raph is strong....
I suspect (like some of my friends) some of you try to judge characters in training mode.....

As i said test raph against someone who knows you shouldn t charge your CE and that he can just play the same way raph should just winning by damage AND evasion with any other character.

Try a 1K happy patroclos, to say one.....one of those who has the patience to wait for your whiffs and work with pokes.

 

[Mr.Hai]

And the lower disadvantage when your opponent blocks 6Bb(BE) or PrepBb(BE) is also useful.

It can still be stepped, and even GI'd. Even assuming that they like to block, the set up for a GB(ringout)was nerferd considerably.

4(B) and SEB 3(B) benefit the most from stuns, being able to tack on a CE, or the small damage bonus from 2B.

But when I use prep bbb ch, does the ch stun only work if the last move hits?

Prep BBB stun (alone) is used if you anticipate an attack after prep BB on block. Otherwise it won't change how you used BBB in pre.

...and i would say lot less considering that 6BBB stuns will connect only...

Suprisingly 6BBB does not have the stun property, which would be usefull in the same regard as prep BBB. An interesting design choice, but we are talking about raph.

 

[piggy]

Also, to my knowledge, they didn't improve prep K tracking at all, so it is still steppable (I could be wrong, don't have my PS at the moment and can't test) so you can still avoid all post-prep options (on block) with 22_88 anything mid and not ridiculously slow.

 

[Vigo]

Also, to my knowledge, they didn't improve prep K tracking at all, so it is still steppable (I could be wrong, don't have my PS at the moment and can't test) so you can still avoid all post-prep options (on block) with 22_88 anything mid and not ridiculously slow.

Don't know if they improved it or not but you can still step prep K with the right timing.

 

[Habast]

Raphael isn't terrible, I think it would fairly easy for Namco to give him reasonable buffs to make him an adequate contender. I'd like to see his old Auto-Evades back, but it would be unreasonable to ask Namco for that at this point. Maybe in VI.

Really, I just want to see an slight damage buff across the board and better tracking on his verticals. That, and I'd like B+K to have a larger window for evading attacks.

Less importantly, though I'd still like to see 66A+G drain more health, maybe something comparable to Yoshi's, but it's not as big of a deal to me. And maybe make his 4A+B have a larger window for guard impacting, because as it stands I find it pretty useless.

 

[Solid_Altair]

@solid altair
I cannot follow you:
You play a character who sucks without CE and than you say he is good because his BE is good on BLOCK....

I didn't say Raph is good. I didn't even say his new BE is better than the old one. I just point out that the improved frames we got on the Patch are useful. And sometimes even the good players will block the last hit, unless they're the European Raph Terminators we still hope you'll show us.

The stun is coreographic but without CE it does less than old combos

What do you mean by coreographic? And even without CE the new stuns will lead to more damage than pre-patch, on CH.

I mean as long as you play in training mode with 2 full CE bars raph is strong....
I suspect (like some of my friends) some of you try to judge characters in training mode.....

Seriously: I hardly lack meter. Maybe some terminator can poke me to death without charging my meter enough, though. I'd like to see that, whether or not it'd happen to me.

And I don't judge characters by training mode. Sometimes you seem to me like you judge characters by looking at frame data sheets and assuming the players will (almost) always do the theoricatically correct thing and will have awesome reactions all the time.

As i said test raph against someone who knows you shouldn t charge your CE and that he can just play the same way raph should just winning by damage AND evasion with any other character.

I only felt outclassed by one guy, so far. He uses Mitsu, has 89% and has literally more than 10 times the amount of online fights I do. He was kind enough to give rematches. We fought 5 times. I lost all of them. I don't blame Raph. I didn't use Prep4 and PrepK, enough. I had awful reactions to his 4B. And from the furstraion born out of these mistakes, I ended up sucking at other aspects, as well.

My point is: maybe if I fix these errors, I'll get close to his level. If I fix these errors, feel like I'm using Raph to his best and still get hammered, then I'd start to consider Raph is probably tremendously non-viable.

In order to 'safely' say Raph is trash, one would need a quite a lot of data to back it up:
* Some Players of very high and similar level.
* These must be comfortable as Raph and at least a few other characters (at the very least 1, actually)
* They'd play a bunch of match ups, Raph being in all of them (there should be Raph mirror matches, too)

Then, if you confirm the high and tight level of the players, by the matches in general, including the mirrors... aaand Raph sucks badly in most match-ups, then yeah, Raph is kinda trash.

Are you on PS3 and do you leave in the Americas? Maybe we could fight to further a part od these tests and maybe you could teach me something.
___________

@everyone: I have posted some Post-Patch stuff on the videos thread. I humbly plea that you guys post some vids, too. I have no idea of how much post-patch strategy I'm missing.
___________

Don't know if they improved it or not but you can still step prep K with the right timing.

To either side. Even from not so close I suspect it maybe stepped, with a good timing, as Raph steps forward to throw the kick, he gets near you and that nearness will allow you to step the kick (I think... I guess it happened against me, once). But, bottom line is: it will hardly be stepped if you throw it from a good distance.

The aggravating thing is when they step your Prep A, to your right. It's quite a blind spot and I think it can only be remedied by delaying Prep A a little.

 

[youngfox]

yea everyone is right about prep sucking. i had this match against a lexia player who is an A2 with a 88% win rate. he kept stepping and attacking after blocking 3b and i couldnt do nething. at least until i realized i was retarded for not abusing prep k, after i Ch him into CE a few times he stopped stepping. i used the hesitation he exhibited to run raph se mixup and wrecked him for 3 rounds like it was nothing.

prep k is great for those who like to step and then attack, it will cover both sides. for opponents who like to just continuously step then use se k, it works very reliably

 

[piggy]

prep k is great for those who like to step and then attack, it will cover both sides.

Maybe online it does, but QS after blocked 3B should get around Prep K, since it IS steppable. Abuse that shit while you can, but come up with plan B for if they start stepping prep.

 

[Gojira]

Edit: oops, thought I was in the general discussion thread for some reason

 

[youngfox]

Maybe online it does, but QS after blocked 3B should get around Prep K, since it IS steppable. Abuse that shit while you can, but come up with plan B for if they start stepping prep.

i just went into training mode and recorded pyraah doing QS followed immediately by BB. Prep k beat it in both directions. i did the same thing with QS step and her AA to see if it was attack speed was the problem. i only missed when i did 3B at point blank range and only if i hit k b4 the start of the prep animation. if those criteria arnt met then prep k handles QS into attack very well.

Also it seems to catches sidestepping moves (22A) but i thinks that moslty cuz the move cancels the step. in my test i waited till the end of the step QS animation.

To beat step with prep k it seems you just have to let raph twirl his swrod once(lol) and then prep k realigns

 

[Vigo]

But, bottom line is: it will hardly be stepped if you throw it from a good distance.

Yes, but the point is that you do not need to step it. You can just block it. And no matter whether stepped or blocked you eat a punisher. It is unsafe and steppable but we have to rely on it because it is one of the better tools Raph has? That's ridiculous. This is exactly what's wrong with Raphael.

 

[Solid_Altair]

@Vigo

If they're blocking when you're in Prep, you should be happy :)