Siegfried Q&A / General Discussion

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Its waaaay more trouble than its worth if you have a secondary with a better matchup, that's all I'm saying with Soph. If I had to take on Ramon or Dina etc. I'd go straight for Kilik. =/
If I have to fight a really GOOD Sophy's player I pick Siegfried... if I lose I chose to lose with HONOR... I if have to fight a mediocre Sophy's Player I chose Kilik, cause I can AA them every time they 236B me and SHOW THEM how GOOD it feel to be PUNISHED... for NO PARTICULAR REASON...
 
Vs Sophy, I just use Sig because.. is me :)
Did you even read what I put up Vs. Cassandra? Most of what I'm talking about is counteroffensive or as I would call it, proactive defence. If you have a better method of breaking down and explaining the Cassandra matchup, I would prefer you shared it rather than acting almost like Vincent, lol.
-_- Dude.. shut up..
n_n lol J/K, but.. No, I haven't read it & wont, I don't need to. When I picked SC4, I decide that I'll develop myself as lone as I can. Basically, the things that I actually have learned by reading are: the existence of kA strings thanks to Sacharja, & the wall-slap that SSH'A+B can do when juggling at certain angles.

And the reason why I don't give out "do this & that by inputs" info is because I agree with Xeph's on/offline view, as for I too come from offline background on SC games prior to SC4.

SC4 is the only online SC game that I have least playing offline. SC1 I played regularly, SC2 was my actual introduction into the word of competitive fighting games & I played a lot of offline "beastiness" (by those times), then in SC3 85% of the competitive scene in Borinquen (PR) just quit SC because of SC3's many bug including VC.

I was struggling to stay sharp on SC3 because that's how much I liked & still like SC in general even tho SC4 is slow to me. Then I met Omega(Mitsurugi), we played in my house, he was doing his "world tour" beasting quest. That event gave me the last boost that have kept me going in SC up to this day.

Unfortunately for me, I was just not able to travel during these SC4 years, but fortunately there was online, because at least is something & I had to play it because I (like many) had spent $$ buy that (dumb) collector edition shit. Which I'll never buy again.

I have only 4 years living in North America. Before moving from Borinquen, I was (& still) dreaming of the days that I would finally be able to meet Aris, ViciousSuicide, DTN & many other legendary players that I've grown up watching their match videos when the internet was still young. Tho things have not been the way I thought, my soul still burns & the legend will never die in me.

My desire, is to travel non-stop around places to meet & play face to face with the players that altered my development as a fighting gamer..

Anyway, that's kinda the why all my post are core-subjective to gameplay, & tho I may have sometimes, I don't think I should keep posting "do this & that input" stuff when I'm not offline certified for SC4.

And Synraii, if you have post practical info differing from sole offensive play, then its cool. Know you are right :)

Btw, my subjective info about gameplay comes from 90% online experience & 10% offline, & it is based on my observations of rival's behavior. Through too much online play, I've sharpen my anticipation "skills" & at times I've become able to sense "beyond the screen", maybe is just in my head, but I can feel my rivals & we have dance nicely at many times, which IMO is where the fun is.. DANCING ;)

Winning or losing, blahh :P... as long as we dance good, I'm a happy Soul. (& dont get me wrong, I play to win)

Anyway, enough BS from me ;)
 
If I have to fight a really GOOD Sophy's player I pick Siegfried... if I lose I chose to lose with HONOR... I if have to fight a mediocre Sophy's Player I chose Kilik, cause I can AA them every time they 236B me and SHOW THEM how GOOD it feel to be PUNISHED... for NO PARTICULAR REASON...

I pick Seigfried... and lose. Because I suck.
 
you do realize a blocked 236B by soph is a 3B by sieg right? I`ve played ramon many times and other good sophys as well, just know what to look out for, look for patterns that they like to do, and play solid. And before someone on here says "well you just havent played a good sophy", yes believe me I used to play all the big names you hear about on the east coast back when jaxel used to throw tournaments. Block....and punish....and add some style every now and then.
 
As much as I respect your opinion, some matchups are just better avoided imo, I'd stick with Kilik in this paticular matchup, it just doesn't feel competitive - the only way Sieg can win this is:
1. If you are a much better player.
2. Failing the first, the Sophie player has to make some significant mistakes for Sieg to keep up on damage, never mind being trumped in the sg game and being dominated at mid and close range. =/

Styling is all well and good, but its such an uphill struggle it doesn't justify the effort imo, but then I do play half the cast proficiently, lol.
 
It's always a hard call when you have tough match ups. For me, I just end up playing whoever I feel comfortable with at the time, bad match up regardless. Most of the time it is Sieg, but I'll switch it up occasionally if I'm just not feeling him that day.
 
Hey! Long time lurker first time poster. I come from a strictly SCII background, and haven't played the series competitively since. I dabbled in SCIV for about a month last year, but the game was already taking its last breaths as SCV was announced. Nevertheless I scoured the SCIV Sieg boards and found an incredible amount of information, most of which was derived from conversations involving/threads made by Syn, Slayer, Heaton and Jink. I'd like to thank all of you guys for the hard work you do and let you know that the learning resources you have provided are invaluable and very much appreciated.

Seeing as its a new game, I was thinking of going in a new direction. I love Sieg, but I'm confused about one particular topic (which is probably basic information to the lot of you).


*Re-post from my regional thread*

I have a question I'd like to ask people currently entrenched in competitive SC. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Siegfreid or Nightmare? I know of their major distinctions in moveset, but not much else. My knowledge pretty much = Nightmare is a tad simpler but arguably more effective, excels at rushing a character and breaking down defense directly as opposed to maneuvering around it or focusing on space control. Siegfried is more unsafe (frame-wise), but has more moves to deal with a variety of situations. He also has a few good quick interrupts which is something Nightmare lacks (I think?).

Is there any benefit to choosing one over the other, and is there anything I'm missing in my narrow analysis?

I also keep hearing about how much trouble Sieg has with Sophitia and other quick characters. I have very limited experience actually playing other competent people, so I was wondering if these are just common nuisances you guys are facing or REAL problems for Sieg. Thanks in advance!
 
Hey! Long time lurker first time poster. I come from a strictly SCII background, and haven't played the series competitively since. I dabbled in SCIV for about a month last year, but the game was already taking its last breaths as SCV was announced. Nevertheless I scoured the SCIV Sieg boards and found an incredible amount of information, most of which was derived from conversations involving/threads made by Syn, Slayer, Heaton and Jink. I'd like to thank all of you guys for the hard work you do and let you know that the learning resources you have provided are invaluable and very much appreciated.

Hey, you're very welcome. Glad to know that our discussion is helping people more than just us, and that we're not the only ones that take a heavy interest in Siegfried.

Siegfreid or Nightmare? I know of their major distinctions in moveset, but not much else. My knowledge pretty much = Nightmare is a tad simpler but arguably more effective, excels at rushing a character and breaking down defense directly as opposed to maneuvering around it or focusing on space control. Siegfried is more unsafe (frame-wise), but has more moves to deal with a variety of situations. He also has a few good quick interrupts which is something Nightmare lacks (I think?).

Siegfried revolves around his stance game heavily. You want to get into a stance, and you want to force the opponent to deal with that stance, regardless of what stance it is. If you're in SRSH, you want them to look at the 50/50 mix-up and have to actually deal with the mix-up instead of ignore it. If you're in SSH, you want them to weight the options of pursuing your retreating SSH A+B versus avoiding SSH K, both (in theory) being mutually exclusive options.

Spacing is also extremely important to Siegfried, because it makes a lot of things less (or not at all) punishable. For example, B6 at optimal spacing forces the opponent to block it or GI it before they can react; they can't evade or otherwise get around it unless they make a defensive move. 66B at the farthest range is only punishable by a small number of the cast (Voldo, Sophitia, and maybe one or two others). 22(B) becomes an extremely effective poking tool, especially because it leaves you in SSH.

His interrupts aren't terrible, but it's not where you want to be. 6K is alright enough if you know they won't be Tech Crouching. SCH K and its derivatives aren't terrible, but you will want to be doing combo damage in SCH, and not trying to beat out your opponent. SSH K is the only interrupt you want to be using with any amount of frequency, and that's only assuming that you space your 22(B) poorly. Properly spaced, 22(B) ~ SSH A+B, and just plain out cancelling SSH works just fine.

Is there any benefit to choosing one over the other, and is there anything I'm missing in my narrow analysis?

I honestly don't know enough about Nightmare to really compare the two in depth, but I messaged a few Nightmare players I know who should be able to help on this. Essentially, you want to compare Nightmare to the above paragraphs, since that is the essence of how to play Siegfried.

I also keep hearing about how much trouble Sieg has with Sophitia and other quick characters.

The Siegfried VS Sophitia match-up is absolutely horrendous in SCIV because Siegfried cannot easily get into stance, and because TAS B defeats Siegfried at HIS optimal spacing. It's a very frustrating match-up, and you can't play with stances as much as you can against other characters. This problem looks to have been fixed in SC5 for a few reasons:
  1. Sophitia is gone.
  2. Pyrrha and Patroklos don't play very similarly to Sophitia (apparently).
  3. Siegfried's stance game in general has been strongly buffed, in particular 3(B).
That's pretty much all I can say to your questions. If there's anything that I wasn't clear on, I'm happy to clarify, as I'm sure most of the other Siegfried players here are. I also messaged Partisan and Tiamat on getting some Nightmare info in here, and they're good about coming through on this sort of thing.

I'd also put off learning anything about SCIV at this point, what with SCV less than two weeks away. I have a feeling a lot of what made Siegfried play the way he did in SCIV - namely, the lack of safe stance entrances, Step G, and the power of his opponent's options - is going to change drastically for SCV. On that same note, however, learning the optimal spacing, and how to do his Just Frames (JagA and a+ka:2A) may not be a fruitless endeavor, seeing as how those things are almost certainly going to be in SCV.
 
Thank you for the VERY detailed Siegfried information. It really puts his play-style into perspective and helps me gauge who I find more fun to play. Partisan has actually offered some great advice already, in the Toronto thread I've been frequenting. I was looking for a bit more detail and you certainly delivered.

I'm intimidated by how stance heavy his neutral game is. I have never played a stance heavy character before, and adapting to that reliance might make it harder for me to learn everything else. The times I do play Sieg for example, I find myself hanging back and mentally overwhelmed. In my head, I'm cycling through so many moves and stances, while my opponent almost effortlessly runs at me and runs standard offense. I am by no means saying I dislike playing Sieg; these are simply some of the problems I faced in the past while picking him up.

A few of my goals include learning this new (for me) SCIV/V game engine, spacing theory, move selection, frame data, and flow of battle concepts. :)
 
i'd also like to add that siegfried is also dependant on alot of counter hits to get the bulk of his damage along side any mixups he may have. hes got a decent poking game and an awesome SG game, but most times you dont wanna try to make a living off those. try to use everything together in sync with eachother.

its not that sieg has difficulties with all fast characters, just a few of them in particular that stand out. and even then, most of the time this is fairly easily compensated for since sieg has so many tools, so its not like ur gonna be in a sieg vs sophie situation every time you meet a fast character. it'll be a little tougher, but definately still winnable.

between sieg and nm i dont think i'd really worry about the safety too much since its not a landslide of a difference really.

tbh i'd like to favor nm a little more in the fast interrupts area simply because he has i15 66K, which TC's. but other than that, again, they're pretty similar, with their fastest interrupt both being K at i13 (or i13/14 for nm depending on range.) i believe their interrupt moves are generally similar. 6A, 3K, 1K, 6K, ect ect.

on the note of iagA, nm's is a little faster, but also gives less frame advantage.

they both whiff punish effectively.

nm has a slightly better RO game, but sieg's is nothing to sneez at either.

nm has better oki.

sieg has a better SG game.

their poking game is about the same with the same idea of forcing your opponent to whiff with stance spacing for free damage. however i personally like siegs more simply because you can do his 2A from standing.

leave final judgements for the nm players that heaton messeged i say, but really it comes down to who you like better, and what style you like better as well.
 
Heaton asked me in here for my opinion on Sieg compared to Nightmare. Keep in mind that I'm mostly comparing how they were in SC4 but with some references to what we've seen so far from SC5. Most of the stuff I'm saying should still apply in SC5.

Sieg's moveset generally makes more sense overall compared to Nightmare. His moves have more obvious uses and aren't terribly awkward to apply. He has a "standard" 3B launcher like many other characters have for one thing. This makes it easy to apply throw mixups with decent risk/reward due to 3B being similar speed to throws while having high damage. Nightmare on the other hand has always lacked a good power mid around the same speed as throws. This makes it more difficult to apply strong throw mixups because in many cases the opponent can flinch duck to go under your grab and still have time to high block if you do a mid. There are ways around this to some extent but the core problem is still there. (though Nightmare does have a strong 4K BE in SC5....so if you have meter he finally has a strong power mid from this speed)

I think Sieg's learning curve is also more steady compared to Nightmare. Nightmare is very effective at low level because of his high damage, but once you fight someone who knows how to deal with him you need to make some pretty huge changes and learn to actually play him "properly." Nightmare is generally more punishable on guard and his stances are not as varied or versatile, usually throwing out a 2A will stuff all his options. He also lacks any kind of good canned mixup from his stances (while sieg has SRSH B/K mixup) so Nightmare's stances are not very effective at higher levels of play. He gets stuffed by 2A and generally can't apply a good mixup from them anyway, so knowing his stances is mostly about minimizing the damage you take when your transition move is blocked (33B6) as opposed to actually trying to apply mixup or pressure.

In SC4 Sieg had a much better soul gauge damage ability but in SC5 Nightmare appears to be pretty good at guard break now, so it is hard to say who will be better at this in SC5. Things that Nightmare tends to do better at than Sieg are whiff punishing and wakeup pressure. He is generally better at whiff punishing because his power moves tend to have more range and damage than Sieg's. His wakeup pressure is better because he has better options to deal with people who like to play dead, side roll on the ground, or tech.

As for interrupts, I'm not sure who comes out on top. If we are talking SC4 I would say Sieg cause of 3B. In SC5 I'm not so sure. I don't know much about changes to Sieg's interrupts other than 3B TCing worse. For Nightmare, A+B is buffed and he has an auto GI CE. Those are rather unsafe but powerful options. Nightmare's 6B (old aB) may be a great interrupt now but without knowing the speed it's hard to be sure. His 66K looks a bit better (cause of normal hit buff, though that doesn't directly apply when talking about interrupts) but hard to say, it's still very weak on raw damage.

Lastly, about spacing and poke type stuff, I don't think Nightmare even really has an ideal range. He's too much of a mess. It depends on the matchup and the situation too much for me to say what his ideal range is imo.

end wall of text
 
Tiamat! long time dude, IMO it would be hard to judge which one would be better, yes sieg has 3B, NM has 33B as well as a tracking mid from his stance that leads into a free stance K and dont be near the edge or wall when you get hit by it. As far as punishing goes sieg isnt really that much safer than NM. Sieg's jagA is better than NM's in the fact that it gives better advantage and NM's does absolutely no guard damage though it is a guard break but take it how you want. There is so much to argue about so I wont get into it.
 
NM's agA > Sig's by Range, but NM's AgA > Sig's by Range + Adv. What doesn't work as much for NM as for Sig. is that either of NM's agAs are not backed by pokes like Sig's b6 or 2A. But still, at tip range NM can counter-retaliate with bA after his agA is guarded. NM's bA is gooood :P
 
eh but on the other hand to get that advantage hes also doing slowest input, whereas sieg gets the advantage regardless of how slow or fast he does it. as for range, well they both can be buffered out of front step anyways, and they both have decent range as is, especially for step killing highs that are neutral and advantage on block, so i wouldnt say thats a terribly large issue. nightmare's is faster, so blocking several of them in a row is extremely undesirable, and forces the opponent to duck for a chance to eat power mids for mixup and oki. for siegfrieds, while this can still be an issue, it is far less prominent IMO because the goal is not so much to get the opponent to duck so much as it is to provoke them to step or attack for CH, while his poking game pushes at a turtling opponent to be more active in their defense and open themselves up to mistakes.

So IMO they are both essentially the same move, they are just more or less tailored in such a way that suits each character for their own particular strengths and core playstyle. Looking at it this way, neither move is really better than the other.
 
^ Agreed, fuck agA - its the throws you want to be ducking from in SCV, lol.

On a side note - I work 3 12 hour shifts and Jian actually posts in this SA? FFS that's like missing an eclipse! =P
 
why duck NM's JagA when it does no guard damage? you are just mixing yourself up
well repeat agA's will kill your step if you try, 66K will interrupt anything you throw out that isnt i15 or faster, and will put you into throw mixups anyways, and well most other options faster than that can either be spaced or stepped and whiff punished or at least give mixup opportunity. duck an agA, and you get a WR combo or a potential throw, but at the risk of eating a power mid. turtle up and you're in a throw mixups again anyways. you've got answers to all of these, but nightmare has something in response that is equally as effective in every department, and imo better when it comes to whiff punishment. at tip he can sacrafice frames for range most of the time, and even if you do choose to backstep, it doesnt really prevent him from doing a frontstep agA, or even forcing a mixup out of it. while blocking doesnt necessarily put you in a bad position, especially if you choose the right options, it definately isnt favorable either. it applies pressure on the oponent, and isnt really something you want to block if you can avoid it. not to mention he can also just as easily interchange agA and grabs with eachother if he so chooses to, which aids in helping force the opponent to duck as well.
 
Ok once again you are mixing yourself up right there. Why would you want to attack after a blocked aga. You're a sieg player you know better, if the NM chooses to keep attacking then block some more, NM doesn't have many safe moves you follow?
 
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