(Soul Calibur II freedom, anyone know what it is ?)

MrenPtah

MrenPtah

[01] Neophyte
Pardon my english
What is it that makes playing SCII and SC1 feel completely different from later installments ?
Why does it feel free when you play SCII ?
the game relied on strategy and poking. the characters were most of the time at far distance from each others.
what is tht "freedom" that people talk about when they describe SCII ?
is it because the moves pushed opponents far from each others ?
is it because air control that made the game feel free ?
can someone explain what did project Soul team take out of the game that made the characters stiff and stuck to each other in SC3 & SC4 & SC5 ?
and btw, judging by SC6 videos so far, do you think this movement freedom is put back in game ?
 
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You could walk while soul charging, a lot of moves made you slide around, and both movement and combat felt a little bit faster to me, but come on... In SCIV and V the control feels much better, even though movement is slower. The controls are more precise and feel better in SCIV and SCV. Whenever I go back to the earlier games, it's SCII that feels "stiff". The worst is SoulBlade, but well, it's an old af PS1 game.
 
Freedom of movement is primarily grounded in safety rather than responsiveness.

8*G and 2*G are allow you to sidestep and guard together. You can also cancel steps with guard instead of being open a whole 20 frames.
 
MrenPtah said:
Pardon my english
What is it that makes playing SCII and SC1 feel completely different from later installments ?
Why does it feel free when you play SCII ?
the game relied on strategy and poking. the characters were most of the time at far distance from each others.
what is tht "freedom" that people talk about when they describe SCII ?
is it because the moves pushed opponents far from each others ?
is it because air control that made the game feel free ?
can someone explain what did project Soul team take out of the game that made the characters stiff and stuck to each other in SC3 & SC4 & SC5 ?
and btw, judging by SC6 videos so far, do you think this movement freedom is put back in game ?
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Its actually a good question and i was thinking about writing some lines to why so many SC2 people hate SC5 so much, lol. I might still do it but here is the short answer.

SC2 feels so "free" due to many reasons, but mainly because the engine allowed you to do more stuff basically.

  • First of all movement is safe. You can backstep, sidestep etc. and still block incoming horizontals.
  • What also makes it more dynamic is the fact that moves were much safer back in SC2. Punishing unsafe moves wasnt as big of a deal as stepping and whiff punishing. The game was more about positioning, movement, whiffing etc.
  • So once you got your moves blocked in SC2, you had many defensive options. In later installments many moves were much unsafer, resulting in you being stuck in your blockstun and getting punished or being stuck at such a high disadvantage that all you could do is block cause stepping was unsafe (aka not doing stuff ).
  • The combination of safe movement and safe moves allowed you to act in offense and in defense more consistently.
  • Newer games often have situations where after you got your move blocked you are required to just not move at all.
  • Move list were much bigger, more offensive options, more defensive options. More cancels. More variety.
  • Guard Impact was free, adding to the fact that basically after any move you did you could GI the opponent.
  • Due to the safe gameplay, the fast gameplay and the free defensive options (GI, Evades etc.) you had more decicions to take in a shorter period of time.
Its a short version, but i think thats mainly it. You could just push more buttons. After SC2 the game went into a different direction with SC5 being the complete opposite of SC2 in my opinion.

I played all games intensively, all had their strenghts and weakness. I had a similar discussion on Twitter, but i think the fact that everything what people loved about SC2 got reduced step by step throughout SC3, SC4 and SC5 makes it close to impossible for the SC2 fanboys to like SC5.

IM not saying SC2 is better, but it is CLEARLY very different from SC5.

Maybe some of the old veteran SC2 players can give you some more input @SilentWall @MONEYMUFFINS @JAGTHEGEMINI

Actually i think SC2 is better, but i also liked playing the later ones.
 
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@docvizzo




    • What also makes it more dynamic is the fact that moves were much safer back in SC2. Punishing unsafe moves wasnt as big of a deal as stepping and whiff punishing. The game was more about positioning, movement, whiffing etc.
      • So once you got your moves blocked in SC2, you had many defensive options. In later installments many moves were much unsafer, resulting in you being stuck in your blockstun and getting punished or being stuck at such a high disadvantage that all you could do is block cause stepping was unsafe (aka not doing stuff ).
      • The combination of safe movement and safe moves allowed you to act in offense and in defense more consistently.
i think you nailed it.
you really said what every SC2 fan feels but fails to diagnose/describe
the game felt better because it was mostly safe indeed.
seeing matches like this here and how the characters are running back and forth across the stage shows the clear difference between SC2 and later installments

  • Newer games often have situations where after you got your move blocked you are required to just not move at all.
Newer games feel like chess, two characters standing at fixed distance throwing moves in turns.

  • Move list were much bigger, more offensive options, more defensive options. More cancels. More variety.
This is one of he most puzzling things, most games progress by adding more depth, more moves and stances that could lead to many choices, Soul Calibur did the opposite.
for example i used to main Mitsurugi in SC2.
whenever i wanted to close in i used 6,6+b,b,B which had about 7 different options coming out of the third B.
i could just press the 3rd b, i could delay the 3rd B till it become a guard crush, i could switch to (Half Moon death) stance which has 5 options to use already.
So how come when Mitsurugi has all these options in SC2, he gets all this removed and given a very lame move in SC3 which is 6,6+b,b ?
that is just oe example of the simplifying Project Soul did to the game making it a shallow game that lacks any depth compared to how it was.
Raphael Stances and Ivy Stances and Maxi Stances all got screwed up too making the game competely stale over the years.

  • Guard Impact was free, adding to the fact that basically after any move you did you could GI the opponent.
that's another example of Project Soul team lack of creatvity, they can't add anything new or interesting so they just remove stuff thinking that any change is good will be good as long as the game feels different.
  • Due to the safe gameplay, the fast gameplay and the free defensive options (GI, Evades etc.) you had more decicions to take in a shorter period of time.
Which was more entertaining, which is why there are people making SC2 tourneys right now, that is something i expected 12 years ago when SC3 came out and was a huge disappointment for me.

  • " After SC2 the game went into a different direction with SC5 being the complete opposite of SC2 in my opinion..... but i think the fact that everything what people loved about SC2 got reduced step by step throughout SC3, SC4 and SC5 makes it close to impossible for the SC2 fanboys to like SC5"
it is not about being fanboys, it is about the game being REALLY not entertaining, not interesting anymore.

you can observe for yourself how the game's popularity dwindled over the years.
back then in (1998-->2005) Soul Calibur was on par with Tekken, having huge popularity and following.
after SC3 the game kept losing players gradually, not because of bugs as some shallow people think, but because of the whole change in movement style that you explained.
Tekken devs were brave enough to revert their game back to its roots when players complained about Tekken 4's movement style, and now we see how successful the game is.
while Project Soul team didn't learn from their mistakes in SC3, they continued in the same path they chose in SC3 by limiting the movement freedom and reducing the moves and stances making the game more shallow and uninteresting.
While Tekken kept adding more depth and becoming the most popular fighting game.

Now to the important part, judging by SC6's gameplay videos, Do you think SC6 is going down the same way ?
 
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lol im a sc2 fanboy as well, dont get me wrong. But i also appreciate aspects of the newer games. E.G i think SC3 GI System was well made, perfect GIs were a great addition, the game had some sick unblockables which could be countered that way (Lol Sophie WSA+B). Sc4...hmmmm.

For SC6 im not sure, it looks good though given the fact that Mitsu has Relic again. Looks like more moves, not less. Im super hyped, lets see if there is new stuff at the namco event tomorrow.

The game will be great if Namco keeps supporting it, thats my stance. Moves can be adjusted, mechanics can be changed (such as SC5 backstep after patch 1). But if you release it and then only drop halloween pumpkin addons per DLC...hmmm not sure.

Im positive, the game looks great. Cant wait to get my hands on it.
 
  • i also appreciate aspects of the newer games. E.G i think SC3 GI System was well made, perfect GIs were a great addition, the game had some sick unblockables which could be countered that way (Lol Sophie WSA+B). Sc4...hmmmm

yes ofcourse i appreciate many aspects in the new games.
SC3 had beautiful, colorful and more diverse stages with great sound track and better single player modes, the Gi as you mentioned as well.
but the core gameplay which we discussed above deprived it from being a great game like its predeccesors

SC4 had nothing good but character creation and netplay, if it weren't for those features i would have never bought it.
SC5 ..hmmmmm

some fanatics are mad when we criticize the game , highlighting the bad aspects , although what we do now is what we should have done 12 years ago to keep this franchise alive and popular.
i think people should get the message when they see SC2 tourneys
want the game to get back its popularity then you gotta go back to the roots.
mock us and call us whining fanboys and enjoy your dead game that people barely remember.
Namco wasn't even sure whether they want to make a sequel or not.
 
Alright, so we put our fingers on what it actually was, cool. And cool that you guys went into it so deep :D But I still say that to me SCIV and SCV feel better, the controls feel more precise.
 
Draggonnfs said:
Alright, so we put our fingers on what it actually was, cool. And cool that you guys went into it so deep :D But I still say that to me SCIV and SCV feel better, the controls feel more precise.
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Well
i just think this is something we should discuss
people like me have always been criticized and trolled in forums for glorifying SC2 above other SC games when SC3 came out then SC4 and SC5.
until i learned to keep my mouth shut and watch the game sunk down as long as the community is ok with how the game is going.
but lately i discovered about the SC2 tourneys.
notice these are not SC3 or SC4 tourneys, it is SC2, which is a proof what people like me have been saying for years was right.
the only way to save SC franchise is by going back to its roots, restoring what have been taken out of it before.
we have the chance now after Namco announced SC6 and there is still sometime to make it right in case they are going the wrong direction again.
 
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