Talim changes for the next Major patch

[Prymo]

Hi all. I have been out for a while because of my study at school and stuff...hate it.
But anyway I am back with a brand new thread wich focuses on intelligent discussing of the next major patch (if it comes).

This has also been stolen from the Rock forums (and yeah I seem to steal a lot of forum posts but I thought that this one is just too good since Talim is also considered one of the bad characters in SC4).

I'll start with some examples.

These are suggestions and NOT FACTS! Also these are pretty bad examples

Cancable Wind Leap and Wind Charm:
By this I mean that you won't jump into your inevitable doom if you don't press any attack button. A quick fix would be to just press and then it will be canceled.

Wind Sault being neutral on landing:
Whenever you do a blank Wind Sault you need to recover for a deceptive long time, wich gives the opponent a lot of free hits. Just make it so that the recovery time is as quick as a normal jump would be.

Making more Talim moves safe:
This could be too much asking but stupid strings such as should not be unsafe in my opinion. Ofcourse Talim would still need some unsafe moves as everyone else but the risk/reward factor on some moves is just to high, while providing little damage. I don't mind doing lesser damage but atleast I want to do the small damage moves without being punished every 3 seconds.

I do understand that my Talim knowledge is very basic. But still I think Talim has much potential (look at her SC2 status!) without being overpowered. It would be great if you guys could offer some examples of your own. I doubt that Namco will read this but still I am eager for your opinion.

Prymo

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Even though there likely won't be another patch, (and especially one that helps Talim) It is an interesting topic, so here's my two cents:

Cancelable Wind Leap and Wind Charm = Yes. Completely agree.

Wind Sault being neutral on landing = Yes. Again I completely agree

I used to think that they should make all her transitional moves (FC 3BB, 66A, 1A, etc...) transition into all 3 stances. I'm realizing now that this would make her kind of cheap even if not quite broken.

Reason being, if she could use all the stances, the opponent would basically have to guess every time they wanted to punish her transitions on block. If they retaliate with a horizontal, AS A+K or WL if it's short range. Retaliate with a vertical, WC. All her transitions would be potentially safe.

That being said, here's my personal tweaks...

1. 66A should be able to go into WC - This is probably the one transition above the others I would say should go into all her stances.

2. Give her one Auto-GI - Just one. And preferably from BT. BT B with an auto-GI would be sweet. It would only GI mids that weren't kicks. Maybe even tone it down to only GI-ing mid verticals if it seemed too broke, but since it's her only aGI (and Rat straight and Asura are much more ridiculous) I don't think it would be too much to ask.

3. BT K should be a MID - I know it's only a minor change, but come on. It's a tech jumping high.... Why?? Aren't the large majority of lows done from crouch or have TC properties anyway? Besides you already have BT B+K for a standard TJ...

4. First hit of Ice Wind combo should be safe on block - Doing anymore than that should be risky. Maybe it causes too much blockstun to be punished.

5. Make WL faster like the version she does after 11B - This is obvious. It wouldn't be impossible to see coming since it's not instant backstep like Raph's and X's 44B. This would make it harder to hit her out of the leap, but not impossible.

6. B+K UB should TC throughout animation AND should be cancelable earlier in the animation - There'd be a use for this move, finally aside from whiff punishing Setsuka and Cassandra's UBs

And finally...

7. Increase her overall damage output either from combos or single strikes - Damage scaling hurts Talim more than most because she RELIES on combos from mixups to get the bulk of her damage. If reducing the damage scaling for her combos is too much to ask, then give her slightly more damage from things like A+K, 2A+B, FC 3B (first hit only), or her A throw.

I think this would help make Talim better overall. I'm still not sure if she'd be mid-tier even with this, but she'd have a lot better tools at her disposal. I would add that one of her GBs should grant her something for free. She doesn't need a free launcher off it, but even if it's just an AA or BB it would be fine. But this isn't a Talim specific gripe I have, I believe all characters should have some kind of free guaranteed damage off GBs.

 

[Jaxel]

There are several things that if you ask me, Talim needs...

1. She has WAY too much block stun on her moves. What I mean, is that lets say a move takes 60 frames to execute and then recover, on block, the opponent takes 58 frames to recover; this means that Talim would be -2. However, on WHIFF that means the opponent has a full 60 frames to punish. Talim gets punished WAY too hard on whiff; while other characters aren't punished nearly as easily, even on whiff. This is the reason why Talim is punished so HARD on neutral wind sault.

2. SHOULD be unsafe. However, it should be delayable and hit confirmable. There is no reason why you should have to input the before the first even makes contact. That pretty much puts Talim at a situation of "all or nothing". When playing Talim, there is no hit confirmation with the majority of her moves. It forces you to just input moves and HOPE that the opponent eats it... or you die.

3. As you said, its all about RISK/REWARD. Talim as it stands is high risk, low reward. Obviously this needs to be fixed. It can be fixed in many different ways; just enough as taking 2-3 frames of recovery off the majority of her moves is enough to make her a little bit better than garbage tier. There is no reason why all her moves need to be so unsafe and often launch punishable.

4. I DONT agree that all of her stance shift moves should transition into ALL of her stances. Each move has a specific stance that it can shift to. If you start letting her shift into all stances with a single move; she will become way too powerful. Its one of the things that makes her shitty so unique; the fact that is pretty much her only move that has full transitions at half turns.

5. BT and BT NEED to Auto-GI. No one thought those Auto-GIs were broke in SC2; and now that you can't Auto-GI throws, it would be even less powerful. Even if they were broke, its still a 40/40 guess, as it never GI'd lows, and you had to chose between verticals and horizontals. Even if it was broke, why take it away from Talim and put them together as a SINGLE move with Voldo's BT ?!

6. BT should be mid... absolutely.

7. Wind Leap should be INSTANT backstep and needs to tech-jump better. Very much the same as Xianghua's, Raphael's, Cervantes' and Yunseong's . These moves can very much be used as a bait punisher; however, with Talim more often then not you will be knocked out before the Wind Leap even starts moving backwards. As well, often if the backjump DOES work, but the opponent has so little block stun (see #1) that they can still block all of her options.

8. Yes, damage scaling is an issue with Talim. While characters like Voldo (who I think is the most broke non-shenanigans character) need only two hits to do 35% damage to you, Talim needs to hit you 5 or 6 times; which means she gets scaled worse than anyone. Not to mention, Talim shouldn't be required to hit an unsafe triple just-frame just to do 76 damage.

9. needs to be looked at. Most chars that have moves like this, the second will retrack. Almost none of Talim's moves retrack (except wind sault, which is random and often ends in a self-RO). Either make it retrack, or let us cancel it into wind charmer like in SC2. Also, like her other moves, its not hit-confirmable (see #2); so it should be natural combo (only knocks down in counter hit). I hate it when I hit someone with the first hit, they block the second hit and take free damage. As with Talim, its "all or nothing, execute and hope".

10. Switch the inputs for and . As it stands, Talim has NO running mixup; especially which how long it takes noob slide RUN to come out in SC4. It needs to come out faster. In order to do from run, I've been doing the following: . In SC2 I used that kick as a wakeup option that mixed between that and the noob slide. As well, it leaves Talim in back turn, giving her backturn GI options if the opponent blocks.

11. Give Talim some real tech-crouch! Why does EVERYONE else in the game tech-crouch more than her? Why does Talim's , WR , WR and not tech crouch? Even though she is visually sitting on the floor? People's weapons are over her head, and she still gets hit.

12. Wind sault stance should be SUPER tech-jump. Some characters have it with their moves, some characters even have super tech-crouch. When Talim is in wind sault stance, she should be able to jump over MIDs; the same way that other characters can tech crouch under them.

Talim in SC2 was NOT broken. She had a significant advantage over some characters yes, but what about other characters like Ivy, Xianghia or Yoshimitsu who pretty much worked the same way. Not to mention, when characters like Ivy, Yoshimitsu, Cervantes and Kilik had such a HUGE advantage on her; she can't possibly be broken. Top tier, maybe; not broke.

 

[Jaxel]

That being said... There will not be another patch. I stand by my belief that we have no support from Namco post-release, as they have already got their money from us. I'm fairly certain as well that 1.03 itself were just fixes that didn't come in time to be printed to the disc, so Namco held them back for a month or two to make it "appear" that they were supporting us, when they really werent. If you think about the nerf to CFs, its probably true. During the first few months, they wanted to flaunt their new CF system, so CFs were broke as fuck (I even called them out to be banned at one time) because Namco wanted to make sure we saw them. In 1.03 they nerfed CFs, so now except for a few select chars, CFs are fine. It would make sense that Namco would plan to do this from the start.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Those are some good points as well, Jaxel. Particularly #1, #9, & #10. I didn't know you could cancel series into WC in SC2. That would be very useful to still have. And I agreed when we talked before about being switched with .

As for #4, that was exactly what I was saying about the free stance transitions making her too good.

The only thing I might be on the fence about is the instant backstepping WL. Personally, I love the idea. However, it seems to me that might also make her too powerful. Now I could be wrong about that, but with Yun-seong, Raphael, and Xianghua, at least they have one option from the instant backstep and that's a mid (Kilik has one that's a low). So if you managed to see their 44Bs being set up, (or 4B+K for Kilik) you only have to worry about that one option.

But with Talim, she has several options so this would be huge for her. Instant backstep + low/mid mixups leading to over 50 dmg combos + the option to go back into Windsault would be a major weapon. And especially if she could still transition to it from WC. This wouldn't make her broke, exactly, but it would definitely shoot her up a few tiers. But if for any reason you think differently (or anyone else does for that matter) feel free to call me on it and explain why.

Also, about the tech crouch stuff. B+K UB aside, what moves in particular would you be in favor of making TC that doesn't already? Talim has quite a few TCing moves, even more than she has TJs they just vary in the times they do.

There's +, , , and + that are her fastest ones. FC (first hit) TCs. As well as /, WC , WC +, , (earlier frames), BT , and Ice Wind Combo. I don't think anyone's 2A or 2K TCs if I remember right. (Which is dumb. Getting thrown out of 2A or 2K for any character is ridiculous) Just curious as to what you think would fix her TC issue.

 

[MasudSabr]

Naw. We won't get an update, but there's no harm in dreaming, right?

I agree with Jaxel with... pretty much all his points. Though to be honest, I'd settle for more moving distance for WC and WL, preferably somewhat controlable like AS. And maybe a bit more speed. I may be the only one here but I don't think her stances should be cancelable, it's just not Talim if she doesn't jump straight into danger- okay, not really. Though I do think this pushes the player to think twice before randomly going into stances, and it makes her assult more continuous/fluid, which is how she was intented to be played, I think. Dodge-hit, dodge-hit, dodge-hit.

The rest of her game just seems rather natural to me. She still won't be as good as the others, but I'm generally very happy with how she turned out in SCIV.

 

[Jaxel]

Yes, Talim has moves that tech-crouch, but the majority of the tech is full of small windows that are unreliable. The tech-crouch in is so pointless that I didn't even remember that it tech crouched. With WC , she technically jumps first, so the tech crouch is so late that its only during the attack frames (making it useless as a tech-crouch move, you're already hitting them, so the tech-crouch doesn't matter).

I can't understand why Namco keeps nerfing Talim's moves. In 1.03 they nerfed her , which was a mediocre move to begin with. Now the tech jump is so small that you pretty much cant use it for that. Meanwhile, look at Voldo's Caliostro ... He can whiff it in front of you and get up, and if you try to throw him, your hands will go through his head. So many moves stay in tech-crouch FAR longer than they should... but not Talim; she stays in tech-crouch far LESS than she should.

@MasudSabr... play SC2. Then you'll see what a good Talim good be. While wind sault was pretty shitty in SC2, she had TWO wind-charmer stances, and they didn't force her to jump into wind sault. She could do _ into WC1 or _ into WC2. Hell, she could do _ and CANCEL the into WC2. She could do _ and cancel into WC2 as well; which is what made that move so good. She even had a from WC1. So she could do and that would be an uber mid option from WC1.

She may feel more fluid now, but thats simply because her Wind sault and Wind leap stances are better in SC4; but its better at the expense of her ENTIRE remaining moveset. The fluidity is whats getting her killed because her simple s and s are crap.

 

[MasudSabr]

Yeah I remember the two WCs, and they were great in SC2. But that's where it ends. I haven't been back to SC2 for a while, but I still remember how much WC ruled. To that mean, I could even see why SC2 Talim had to be nerfed (just... not as much as they did... ... ...) The new WC just doesn't cut it in comparison, but to me, the biggest problem was still the distance WC traveled, and not so much the options it leaves you after you went into the stance(s). Perhaps that's just the way I play, and it suited me, so I'm not complaining.

 

[Jaxel]

Frankly, the more I play SC4, the more I wonder if Project Soul has ANY idea of what the fuck they are doing. They fucked up with Tekken 4, so they were moved over to the Soulcalibur series and started with SC3. And since then, they have produced nothing that compares to it's predecessors. I look at what ZeroEffect said about The Ice Wind Combo and it brings up a great point. In most fighting games, with in-box combos (Target Combos), doing the first input only is always the safest; and as you progress further into the combo, it becomes less and less safe. Meaning doing is safer than doing is safer than doing .

Then I look at Talim's combo. Why is safer than just doing ? The whole notion of "do the full combo, because its safer than only doing part of it, is just retarded and no other fighting game has EVER operated the same way. Personally, I think except for , the things that made Talim good in SC2 were in the CORE engine problems, not in Talim herself. She had a great evasion game that was amplified with the stepping issues in SC2. If they simply took the Talim from SC2 and put her into SC4, you would see that her great evasion game would probably be greatly nerfed (since you can barely step verticals as it is) and perfectly balanced for SC4.

Also... ZeroEffect, in SC2, Talim had (which is now her current ). If you were at neutral and you did it did NOT tech crouch. However if you were already crouching and you did (or from crouch, same move), it WOULD tech crouch. So it was the SAME move, however if you started in crouch, it would remain in crouch. How come no move in SC4 works this way? If I am guarding low, and I do a , Talim's head is the same height as if I was just guarding. Why does Talim come out of crouch? I could understand not making tech crouch if you are from standing. But if you are already crouching, it should remain in crouch.

The programmers for SC2 were simply all around better than the programmers for SC4. Characters had larger movesets, better cancels, the game was more balanced, we had advance/retreat guard, as well as while landing movies. WTF happened?!

 

[Jaxel]

Also... why is a high? That should be a mid! She jumps on your back for gods sakes!

Talim's is -14 on block and does 17 damage and is -4 on hit.
Voldo's is -3 on block and does 28 damage and is +4 on hit.
Cassandra's is -4 on block and does 30 damage and is +6 on hit.
Setsuka's is -6 on block and does 20 damage and is +4 on hit.
Amy's is -4 on block and does 18 damage and is +6 on hit.
Maxi's is -4 on block and does 18 damage and is +5 on hit.
Hilde's is -6 on block and does 20 damage and is +4 on hit.
Rock's is -4 on block and does 24 damage and is +7 on hit.

Doesn't something seem WRONG here? Every character is pretty much in the same frame data range EXCEPT Talim. For some reason she seems completely out of whack when you compare her to the rest of the cast. Couple this with the fact that Talim has ZERO range, does the least damage, and she has to "all or nothing" her ... WTF? The sad part is that pretty much Talim's entire moveset compares the same way with the rest of the cast: out of whack. Not to mention her moves take longer to recover than anyone else on whiff.

Even the low tiers have better frames than her.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Also... ZeroEffect, in SC2, Talim had (which is now her current ). If you were at neutral and you did it did NOT tech crouch. However if you were already crouching and you did (or from crouch, same move), it WOULD tech crouch. So it was the SAME move, however if you started in crouch, it would remain in crouch. How come no move in SC4 works this way? If I am guarding low, and I do a , Talim's head is the same height as if I was just guarding. Why does Talim come out of crouch? I could understand not making tech crouch if you are from standing. But if you are already crouching, it should remain in crouch.

Haha, exactly! As I said, it's stupid that FC 2Ks in general are registered as non TC moves since the character is already in full crouch. For every time I've been thrown out of FC 2K all I can do is just shake my head at the lack of logic involved there.

Also... why is a high? That should be a mid! She jumps on your back for gods sakes!

Between 9B being a high (despite the animation), and 9A having about the same amount of frames for recovery as it does for impact, just because she has to flip her weapon around a few times, I think they maybe overcompensated for the improved Windsault/Windleap. Probably figured she has enough attacks from TJing stances, so just limit her regular jumping moves to 9K. At least 9B can jump mids though.
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Actually, Talim's being negative on hit and unsafe on block is reasonable, because of the large delay window for . If was safe on block, there'd be no need to have that to bait retaliations and snuff them out for CH. That's the difference in those characters since, no one there other than Maxi has any follow up to , and he needs it cause he can go into stance. And the damage problem we've discussed already.

 

[Talim JP]

I don't think another patch is comin.

Not even gonna dream or complain; I'm just gonna try my best with the Talim I got.

I do shake my head sometimes though.

 

[Prymo]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I really love the Talim community, I can see that by viewing other forums this forum is still very much alive and helpful.

Also I love how Jaxel vents in this thread :D. But all of your ranting is justified though, Talim has not any sencere BIG problems but it's just all the little problems stack up to one big problem. I am going to make one list but at this time I can't be arsed to do that yet :P.

Have you guys also noticed how sometimes AS hits on a rolling opponent but afterwards you get off-axis and start wind charming COMPLETELY the wrong way...

And also I want to have / being cancable into the wind stances or cancable in general. That move is a great launcher but it's too slow :(.

 

[Jaxel]

Prymo... I think is perfectly fine the way it is... however, is not.

Everyone else who has charge moves, they will retract while you delay it. Not Talim...

I personally use after CH .

 

[ruinandchaos85]

Well, doesn't stay TC? If that's they case I think that makes up for the lack of retraction. In any case, it's not a move to be thrown out at random, especially if the opponent's seen it before. Best to use it during combos or when the opponent's using too many high's.

 

[mikosu]

236[ B ] would be just fine imo if it did more SG damage than 236B. The other properties I have no issue with.

One buff she could have is 1A being faster. It used to be iirc and was pretty annoying.

Definitely agree with the aGIs from BT returning. Her mixups would be even better.

33A safe. Everyone wants this. Give it to us!

 

[ZeroEffect317]

33A safe.... 33A safe equals Talim stepkilling spam shenanigans. Brilliant indeed!

 

[Prymo]

Also maybe it would be cool if WL had an use in this game. I can't figure anything out though yet to make it better.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

WL B if they whiff a high or another standing close range move. It's the same as 66B really.

 

[MasudSabr]

WL B most certainly has a use for Talim!
... Well, if you like to hogging the camera for more "POW" shots. Can you just imagine a little starburst bubble that says 'POW!!' next to her fist every time the move lands? :p

Okay. Too much comics.