Dr_Tom
[09] Warrior
I haven't put too much work into it but I get 81 damage on NC and only 76 on NCC.You do just as if not more damage NC than NCC.
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I haven't put too much work into it but I get 81 damage on NC and only 76 on NCC.You do just as if not more damage NC than NCC.
I don't know why 6BB needs to be nerf when there is clear counter play. I would get this if the opponent was an idiot and didn't know how to tech, but...…..come on man.
Gonna go line by line.This whole patch just seemed to help Talim in some of the areas she was worse off in. Her on-block punish game being abysmal (as I've touched on before), is something that these changes all aimed to fix. She had very few avenues for guaranteed damage. Something was either -14 or -20, and the areas inbetween didn't yield massive increases in reward. At -18, 44K was probably your best bet.
6AK hitting more consistently, 4BA hitting more consistently, 6BB being a NC, all of these just seem to giving her something to punish with, especially against more negative moves that have a lot of pushback. Nightmare and Sieg certainly had a lot of those and she had a tough time getting much afterwards.
Hearing 6BB was going to be a NC, I was prepared for a 39ish damage combo into a very highly plus stance mix-up, essentially allowing her to run her game using whatever option she wanted. That seemed like enough to me. Cause 6BB was already an amazing counter-hit tool. However if you ever hit with the first hit of it, since you couldn't really hit-confirm it (by that I mean not confirming the second hit, you can charge on reaction or not), you were committed and sort of punished for hitting with it. So this change made sense to me. The whole 6BB into WNS A+B into whatever however I do think it is a bit much.
As a Talim main, I will use whatever they want to give me, but as a Talim main, I feel compelled to be honest about the character. This buff is uh, way more than she needed from this normal. Let's look at what 6BB was already, versus what it is now...
Pre-patch:
- Built in delayable guard break frame trap
- Potent counter-hit stun on first or second hit, leading to a combo
- Hit-confirmable (though you would have to commit to the second B no matter what, but you could delay it on block), and it was stance confirmable (so when you saw a stun/block, you could stance forward or back on reaction)
- High damage on counter-hit
- Spaced and stanced well, was pretty safe on block
- Great tool for backstep catching
Post-patch:
- All of the above
- Slightly easier to punish due to less pushback
- Due to increased hit-stun on first hit, is now hit-confirmable on normal or counter-hit.
- Highest damage bnb starter, even matching her 66A+B, which covers the same ranges, while also being slower (though isn't plus on block)
- Offers very potent ringout potential/carry due to the WNS A+B being her best forward moving ringout move
- New pushback makes CH combos different, and sometimes fickle, but potentially offers more Oki options afterwards than the previous combo.
6BB was already a fantastic normal, as it was confirmable on counterhits and did good damage. It was clearly built for counterhitting, so my issue with this normal goes beyond the strength it brings but also the aesthetic and design.
6BB does not look like a launcher. The counter-hit has an electric sizzle, which sells the impact more, and this builds into your idea of it having more reward as a result. 6B(B) has the full thunder sound effect going into it, granting impact to it's attack and the subsequent guaranteed stun it yields. 6BB NC... does not look like it should be doing extended combos. Yet the version that sells itself the least is now the BEST version of the move damage-wise. That is ass backwards design. Visuals, audio, even the moves design concept are all shattered by this move operating the way it does now. Even the character archetype is at flux here.
So while yes, I will abuse the crap out of this move. Let it be known that I stand by this move being broken, and I fully expect this combo extension on it to be removed. If the combo extension is not removed in the next balance patch, I will let any person in this thread pick my character, and I will be forced to use only that character for the next month.
I am very confident in it being an oversight, and I hope it is, because I don't find the combo satisfying. Every bit of it's visuals irks me on a fundamental design level. I also admit, I never once actually looked into what you could hit with after a regular hit of the second hit of 6BB pre-this patch because... I never hit with it, it was either counter or the first hit got blocked. So this combo was likely always there, just near impossible to use. Now it's waaay too good, and it also makes a lot of her other moves sort of worthless. Rather Talim had other areas of her kit improved rather than this. I'll keep the 6BB NC, but I don't want that combo.
Decent? Absolutely.do we think these are the changes she needed though is the question. I'd have been more than fine if all she got where improved frames on her stances, maybe a bit more distance on both 4B+K and 6B+K.
Are these decent in replacement?
do we think these are the changes she needed though is the question. I'd have been more than fine if all she got where improved frames on her stances, maybe a bit more distance on both 4B+K and 6B+K.
Are these decent in replacement?
Also nerfing this really fucks up the character as you make WNS much worst because of it. It doesn't help her range is already an issue as certain moves you should be able to punish she can't because of how they knock her back. For example, you can't punish Shopie's 3A even though it's -14. You guys really don't understand what you're getting yourself in too and need to calm down. I feel like I have to legit make a video showing people how to beat it similar to when ESAM had to show people how to Smash DI Bayonetta and is now showing people how to beat Inkling. People need to sit down and do proper testing before we deem something broken.
BT B being safe was the only change I openly stated since the beta, lol. 6BB being NC was something I thought would fill out her kit nicely. The rest of these changes were things I didn't expect, but can't really complain about. 6AK is actually a real move now, gives her a forgiving step catch outside of 6K range. WNS A tracking is pretty major it seems.
But I feel like, at the end of the day, contesting neutral will always be her biggest weakness. WNS is still not a very strong stance. But the things she has gotten are enough to make it easier for her to stick to your opponent once you DO get in. WNC B:B being 0 for instance.
I stand by the fact that pre-patch Talim in BT wasn't that good. Every option was launchable on block except her grabs. Her options from BT were also slower by 2 or so frames, so even if she entered BT at +2, she only traded with their 2As. Now though, she finally has a real threat with BT B.Well, I like 6BB being a NC combo, I think that change is great for her. It really helps her awkward zone punish game between -15~-19. The follow-up damage I find to be a little ridiculous. 6BB was really good already, and it wasn't a move I looked at and was like "boy, I wish this was better." She has a lot of moves I think were less than stellar that had near no use. 22_88BB is pretty useless, her aGI is still a detriment, all of her unblockables are worthless, FC A+B really could due to be faster or at least have the first hit be mid (it's a literal vertical swing, how is it a high?). I do think with the nerf to WNS-B, it's use is very dwindled and needs another purpose.
It's not a matter of 6BB being godly, it's a matter of it not making much sense as it is right now. NC 6BB is fine (that's still 39 damage or so into stance pressure), the follow-up is a little much. Why is 6BB, which is already a very solid move, designed for counter-hitting, doing more damage NC, than it is NCC? That is a fundamental design flaw.
I never said the move is without flaws. It's steppable, when properly reacted to and poorly spaced, it's punishable. You are, however, massively overselling how easy it is to punish 6BB. A huge part of Talim's gameplan is based around what stance she is going to go into. If you knee-jerk try and punish a WNF jump-back stance cancel, she might just WNS A+B you and hit your punish. Now, each character has their own options with this, and the goal is to find a punish which hits all of her stance cancels (Sophie for instance can do 66A which will punish a jump back and WNC, and go under a WNS). There are also usually much more damaging punishes for specific stance cancels, if you want to go in on a read (for instance, Sophie can do 66B against a jump back, but if you do anything else, she gets blasted). Talim can also charge it, which is another mind game in and of itself. Pre-patch, but even post patch, the pushback on this move was/is such that she does create A LOT of distance between you and the opponent with this move.
Most of your response is akin to "And I'm okay with that, why not!?" as opposed to why does this specific move, and why does Talim need this in this specific area? She needs the NC, I feel. I do not think she needs the assistance in damage afterwards. The free stance cancel pressure afterwards, and the fact she can now confirm this option so long as it hits in anyway are both great boons in and of themselves. Hitting 70~81 damage is excessive.
Aw, man, don't get me started on how nice BT B now. I was already a BT-boy, that's how and where I want to be. Now you can just do whatever once you get BT, it's the best. I love it. My entire gameplan is getting BT. Now if only she could hold WNC down to go into BT... ah, if only. Didn't she have multiple WNCs in SC2? I recall that being a thing.
WNS:B is a loss, for sure. It's purpose is sort of screwy now.
I also really like the 3A change. As people get used to it, it won't mean too much, but it is nice to be able to force your turn a bit afterwards. Since that move is so slow and short, makes it more worth using. Now normally I want BT, but I wish this move ended front, while crouching, cause then you could use rising B, and get that clash stuff I talked about earlier. If it was +0 crouching, mmm... if only. BT is still fine though. You can read lows with B+K and highs with A, so you can try and get more than just a 2A clash if you want.
Well the reason NC is doing mroe than the CH one is because they added scaling to 6BB. I think move makes perfect sense as there is actual counter play. There was no counterplay to Azwel's backstep for example. There was no counterplay to Mercy mass res before the nerfs in Overwatch. There was no counterplay to Smoke's reset in MK9. See a theme here? I listed examples of actual broken shit in other games to show you what broken really is. You should look up counterplay as it is a big thing you need to consider game balance and ask, "Can someone do soemthing to stop this?"Well, I like 6BB being a NC combo, I think that change is great for her. It really helps her awkward zone punish game between -15~-19. The follow-up damage I find to be a little ridiculous. 6BB was really good already, and it wasn't a move I looked at and was like "boy, I wish this was better." She has a lot of moves I think were less than stellar that had near no use. 22_88BB is pretty useless, her aGI is still a detriment, all of her unblockables are worthless, FC A+B really could due to be faster or at least have the first hit be mid (it's a literal vertical swing, how is it a high?). I do think with the nerf to WNS-B, it's use is very dwindled and needs another purpose.
It's not a matter of 6BB being godly, it's a matter of it not making much sense as it is right now. NC 6BB is fine (that's still 39 damage or so into stance pressure), the follow-up is a little much. Why is 6BB, which is already a very solid move, designed for counter-hitting, doing more damage NC, than it is NCC? That is a fundamental design flaw.
I never said the move is without flaws. It's steppable, when properly reacted to and poorly spaced, it's punishable. You are, however, massively overselling how easy it is to punish 6BB. A huge part of Talim's gameplan is based around what stance she is going to go into. If you knee-jerk try and punish a WNF jump-back stance cancel, she might just WNS A+B you and hit your punish. Now, each character has their own options with this, and the goal is to find a punish which hits all of her stance cancels (Sophie for instance can do 66A which will punish a jump back and WNC, and go under a WNS). There are also usually much more damaging punishes for specific stance cancels, if you want to go in on a read (for instance, Sophie can do 66B against a jump back, but if you do anything else, she gets blasted). Talim can also charge it, which is another mind game in and of itself. Pre-patch, but even post patch, the pushback on this move was/is such that she does create A LOT of distance between you and the opponent with this move.
Most of your response is akin to "And I'm okay with that, why not!?" as opposed to why does this specific move, and why does Talim need this in this specific area? She needs the NC, I feel. I do not think she needs the assistance in damage afterwards. The free stance cancel pressure afterwards, and the fact she can now confirm this option so long as it hits in anyway are both great boons in and of themselves. Hitting 70~81 damage is excessive.
Yeah, so now, the question is, HOW will they fix it?
As long as her WNC stance frame traps remain in-tact then 6BB will still be a great tool. But if her WNC stuff can be mashed out of, this lowers it's effectiveness.
I mean, Talim still got a bunch of nice things, lol.talim isn't allowed to have nice things guys.
Well the reason NC is doing mroe than the CH one is because they added scaling to 6BB. I think move makes perfect sense as there is actual counter play. There was no counterplay to Azwel's backstep for example. There was no counterplay to Mercy mass res before the nerfs in Overwatch. There was no counterplay to Smoke's reset in MK9. See a theme here? I listed examples of actual broken shit in other games to show you what broken really is. You should look up counterplay as it is a big thing you need to consider game balance and ask, "Can someone do soemthing to stop this?"
Talim's getting nerfed next month.
Yeah, so now, the question is, HOW will they fix it?
As long as her WNC stance frame traps remain in-tact then 6BB will still be a great tool. But if her WNC stuff can be mashed out of, this lowers it's effectiveness.
talim isn't allowed to have nice things guys.
I mean, Talim still got a bunch of nice things, lol.
But nah... Even I didn't think 6BB~WNS A+B would stay. She was basically doing LH damage on NH with that combo. CH 6BB was less damage, which clearly speaks to it being an oversight.
You're absolutely right that is the question to ask and pretty much know and yes at the same time them improve in the bt B was nice but that's the only change that I really see that's decent.do we think these are the changes she needed though is the question. I'd have been more than fine if all she got where improved frames on her stances, maybe a bit more distance on both 4B+K and 6B+K.
Are these decent in replacement?