Talim vs. the rest of the SC4 cast

[Ooofmatic]

Overall Vader is more damaging, safer, better SG damage, better step, better range and has a much better RO game than Talim. And he can shut down her wind leap stance pretty hard. That's why I feel the matchup is in Vader's favor.

I think it's also in The Apprentice's favor as well. He can also shut down her stances with his Force pull (A+B), and he can get out of tight situations by jumping away and out of range with 4_6_8_2A+K, and continue the pressure from far range.

Yoda, is a tough call. probably 5:5. Talim can't really do SG damage on him like most other characters can, so the fight just comes down to simple pokes back and forth, and evades.

I disagree with Talim vs Amy being 5:5. I feel it's in Amy's favor. Amy is very safe and much faster than Talim. In this match Talim needs to play much more riskier than the opponent (as with a lot of her matchups) in order to keep up with damage. Amy also has a stronger mixup game than Talim up close (3B, 2B+K etc), and is much better at whiff punishing (33B).

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Yeah, as I said, I don't have much to contribute to Vader/Talim so I'll just take your word for it, Oof. As for shutting down WL, every character seems to have some kind of nasty counter for it that can normally be done on reaction. WL is risky in that way. Vader does have some high damaging combos though so it's probably a bit worse here.

As for Apprentice, can he force pull her out of transitions on NH as well? If so then, that's definitely an issue. The guy I played would force pull me out of WL/WC transitions on block almost every time unless I baited a whiff or something. What does Apprentice really have from far range to maintain pressure after leaping away?

You're probably right about Yoda too, though I've never actually attempted to Soul Crush him. (The few times I played against him offline) Talim's SG game likely suffers since certain moves whiff over his head. (66B, AS B... etc). 6A+B should work well since it's even harder for Yoda to step it. I haven't tested which combos of hers work and which don't.

Now Amy... I don't know why Talim would have to play too risky against her since she doesn't have to worry much about leaving herself open trying to get in close. I agree that Amy is faster and has stronger mixups (stronger SG too). She's all around a better character. I do think Talim is really good at whiff punishing. It's practically the only kind of punishing she's gonna get against most characters and especially ones as safe as Amy.

If Talim WCs her, most of the time she can get almost 70 damage with WC B:B combos or good oki setups. If she steps her she could get IWC for 50, or possibly 236B for 60~70 depending on angle or Amy's recovery. Amy has great TCs and that can be a problem for Talim. 6BB punishes stuff you could get away with against a large majority of the cast.

I talked to Dreamkiller about it too, and he thinks it's 6:4 Amy but not as easy as her other 6:4s. I personally can't say I feel disadvantaged against Amy, I just have to play her more deliberately since her auto GIs and rushdown capabilities are very good. But you might be right, it might just be a 6:4.

 

[Ooofmatic]

What does Apprentice really have from far range to maintain pressure after leaping away?

He doesn't have much, but I find his 22_88A to be a very useful distance attack.

Talim is a high risk/high reward character where as Amy is low risk/high reward. Talim needs to be played risky in order to dish out damage, because of how unsafe she is. If Talim were to be played very safe against Amy she would need to put in much more effort than the Amy player would in order to win. It's just not a matchup I would see being even.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Is Apprentice's 22_88A that slow horizontal that stuns you or something?

And yeah, I see what you're saying about Amy. If we were to break it down to specific tools and moves for given situations, it doesn't appear that either one has an edge. But you're right that in terms of effort in general, Amy doesn't have to work as hard. I can admit when I'm wrong. 6:4 it is.

What about Lizardman though Oof? I have only played Hubbs' Lizardman, but even though I can win against him it feels like a bit of a disadvantage. Any thoughts on that matchup?

 

[Ooofmatic]

It's his advancing horizontal mid. It doesn't stun.

It's funny cuz even though they both used to be my mains, I can't really comment on that matchup. I`ve only fought a good Lizrdman player with her once offline, and he had no idea how to approach the fight. And aside from that I never really looked into that matchup.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

It's his advancing horizontal mid. It doesn't stun.

It staggers you a little bit, that's what I meant. Not like a regular stun with the electric effect.

It's funny cuz even though they both used to be my mains, I can't really comment on that matchup. I`ve only fought a good Lizrdman player with her once offline, and he had no idea how to approach the fight. And aside from that I never really looked into that matchup.

Ah, okay then.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Okay well, after having some extensive sessions with a really good French Lizardman player last weekend, I feel like I can evaluate the Lizardman matchup better. It's likely another 4:6 for our little wind priestess.

For the advantages, Talim's 22K can evade Lizard Crawl entirely. Nothing he does can hit her out of it or punish her for using it, even on LC A hit she can use this. 44K will interrupt anything from LC after blocking 1{K}, 44{K} or 33{A} transitions. He also can't seem to punish AS A and AS A+B extremely hard so it's not overly risky to use them.

For the disadvantages, Lizardman has much better damage output and just as good knockdown potential as Talim does. He can space her pretty well from neutral distance using 66A and/or 3B. Talim can't punish either of these due to pushback and both can be really damaging on CH. He also has 44K and B+K which have enough backstep to cause many of Talim's retaliations to either whiff or get beaten out. B+K is adv. on block as well. He also has a strong RO game that I wasn't really aware of before.

 

[SBA]

Talim Matchup chart

I don't think many people here are all that big into matchup rankings, but I'll list them again just in case for easier reference.

Algol – 1:9
Amy – 4:6
Apprentice – not sure
Astaroth – 4:6
Cassandra – 4:6
Cervantes – 4:6
Darth Vader – not sure (Oofmatic says 6:4 Vader, but neither of us have much experience in the match)
Hilde – 4:6
Ivy – 3:7
Kilik – 3:7
Lizardman – not sure
Maxi – 5:5
Mitsurugi – 4:6
Nightmare – not sure
Raphael – 4:6
Rock – 6:4
Seong Mi-Na – 4:6
Setsuka – 4:6
Siegfried – 4:6
Sophitia – 4:6
Taki – 4:6
Talim – 5:5
Tira – 5:5
Voldo – 3:7
Xianghua – 4:6
Yoda – not sure
Yoshimitsu – 4:6
Yun-Seong – 5:5
Zasalamel – not sure

that's a lot of 4:6s... poor Talim.

I take it this is the list we are going off of?
Well if it is, i want to throw my opinions in this

Amy 3-7 - Auto Gis can be rediculous against talim, and alot of her moves are faster and safer than talims

Apprentice 5-5 - Nothing really speacial wit this matchup. They dnt hav anything player specific

Cervy 5-5 - like said earlier 6k owns GDR, were a lot of mixups come from. other than this o also dnt see anything else that could be deadly against talim

Darth Vader 4-6 easily shuts down WL and AS with force, complete with counterhit (?) auto-gis r usually abused against her. other than this, there is nothing else really speacial.

Lizardman 5-5 -22_88K and 2A+B r good against crawl abusers (wich i face a lot of) other than this i hav no real expierence outside of online against lizardman.

Nightmare 4-6 - I fight a lot of Nightmares, and i honestly dont find them overwhelming.

Voldo 4-6 - i dnt think Voldo has THAT much advantage over talim. I'll go in details later on this one.

Yoda 5-5 - ive never played Talim vs. Yoda, but i do play Yoda, and it would be about even. Actually, id put Yoda at advantage because Talim cant be utilized fully becuz a lot of moves from stances wnt work.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Talim Matchup chart

I take it this is the list we are going off of?
Well if it is, i want to throw my opinions in this

Amy 3-7 - Auto Gis can be rediculous against talim, and alot of her moves are faster and safer than talims

I disagree with the number. Amy just has to be fought against more cautiously than most characters. It's true that her auto-Gi's are a pain against anyone really, and it may give her an advantage, but I don't think it's enough to make the match that skewed. She really only has 6BB that beats Talim out in terms of speed. You are right in that she definitely wins in the safety department though. Talim can also damage her pretty bad on whiff with WC B:B, and a lot of her other step punishers. Even though I personally say 5:5, I can live with a 4:6 since everyone else claims she does have an advantage.

Apprentice 5-5 - Nothing really speacial wit this matchup. They dnt hav anything player specific

Apprentice has force and range, but I don't think he has too much else to shut her down. So it's definitely near even. either 5:5 like you said or 6:4.

Cervy 5-5 - like said earlier 6k owns GDR, were a lot of mixups come from. other than this o also dnt see anything else that could be deadly against talim

6K owns GDR? you mean the stance or the move itself? I don't know how reliable 6K is when he's flying at you. It's probably best to GI it instead. Cervantes punishes really well and has good damage. I haven't played many amazing Cervy players though. I only know two people offline who use him.

Darth Vader 4-6 easily shuts down WL and AS with force, complete with counterhit (?) auto-gis r usually abused against her. other than this, there is nothing else really speacial.

Yeah I agree. I don't feel Vader has too much over her outside of shutting down transitions. But even then,
Vader's 4A+B does little, if any, damage to her unless it's fully charged and causes the ground stun. You and Oof both say 4:6 in favor of Vader so we'll go with that unless someone can provide reasons for otherwise.

Lizardman 5-5 -22_88K and 2A+B r good against crawl abusers (wich i face a lot of) other than this i hav no real expierence outside of online against lizardman.

Lizzy is definitely at advantage in this match. Crawl is only a small part of the problem. I found this out while playing a really good French player who used him. The reasons why I listed a few posts back.

Nightmare 4-6 - I fight a lot of Nightmares, and i honestly dont find them overwhelming.

I can agree with this. Nightmare is not overwhelming for Talim at all. Online it can be a bit of a struggle though due to lag boosting his ground game and what not.

Voldo 4-6 - i dnt think Voldo has THAT much advantage over talim. I'll go in details later on this one.

I'd like to hear your reasoning for this match being better than 7:3

Yoda 5-5 - ive never played Talim vs. Yoda, but i do play Yoda, and it would be about even. Actually, id put Yoda at advantage because Talim cant be utilized fully becuz a lot of moves from stances wnt work.

Most of Talim's staple combos don't work on Yoda, which ultimately means that Yoda can potentially do more damage than her. Other than that, I don't really know if he has any real threatening tools against her. His advantages just seems to stem off of his hitbox and reduced launch properties.

 

[SBA]

Talim Matchup chart

I disagree with the number. Amy just has to be fought against more cautiously than most characters. It's true that her auto-Gi's are a pain against anyone really, and it may give her an advantage, but I don't think it's enough to make the match that skewed. She really only has 6BB that beats Talim out in terms of speed. You are right in that she definitely wins in the safety department though. Talim can also damage her pretty bad on whiff with WC B:B, and a lot of her other step punishers. Even though I personally say 5:5, I can live with a 4:6 since everyone else claims she does have an advantage.

I tend to have MAJOR problems fighting Amy. but maybe this is just a player thing. I'll take ur word for it.

Apprentice has force and range, but I don't think he has too much else to shut her down. So it's definitely near even. either 5:5 like you said or 6:4.

Glad u see it my way ^_^

6K owns GDR? you mean the stance or the move itself? I don't know how reliable 6K is when he's flying at you. It's probably best to GI it instead. Cervantes punishes really well and has good damage. I haven't played many amazing Cervy players though. I only know two people offline who use him.

I think thats wat its called. im talkin bout the actual stance, wen he does his little wind up thing. Like u, i dont know any pro Cervantes players...but i just cant think of anything that Cervy has that kould shut Talim down...

Yeah I agree. I don't feel Vader has too much over her outside of shutting down transitions. But even then, Vader's 4A+B does little, if any, damage to her unless it's fully charged and causes the ground stun. You and Oof both say 4:6 in favor of Vader so we'll go with that unless someone can provide reasons for otherwise.

Ok that works

Lizzy is definitely at advantage in this match. Crawl is only a small part of the problem. I found this out while playing a really good French player who used him. The reasons why I listed a few posts back.

Well, Ive yet to play a pro Lizardman, so this ill also take ur word on.

I can agree with this. Nightmare is not overwhelming for Talim at all. Online it can be a bit of a struggle though due to lag boosting his ground game and what not.

I hate 1a :-(

I'd like to hear your reasoning for this match being better than 7:3

Well this matchup is based more on personal expierience then anything else. Talim kills his mantis crawl stance, and wen hes at Blind Stance, her TJ stances can come into play, since voldos at BS more often than not use a low than anything. Alot of Voldos core moves r done up close, or bring him close into Talims optimal range, so talim doesnt have the task of trying to get in her optimal range, which is one of her biggest issues. I just dont see y the match is SOO skewed in his favor. Voldo is just a top tier character. I honestly have no problems fighting them, and usually beat most Voldos i meet.

Most of Talim's staple combos don't work on Yoda, which ultimately means that Yoda can potentially do more damage than her. Other than that, I don't really know if he has any real threatening tools against her. His advantages just seems to stem off of his hitbox and reduced launch properties.

Thats everybodys problem, not just Talim's. This is rounded out by Yodas disadvantages (bad damage, no step, horrible soul gage, yadayada)

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Yeah, and since you bring up the soul gauge problem for Yoda, 6A+B is gonna be a real problem for him. Sure he can try to GI it but since it can be canceled it's a risk. I didn't even think about that really. So maybe it isn't Yoda's advantage. Though most of Talim's best gauge damage come from highs (9B, 66B, AS B) or mids that somehow whiff on Yoda (WC B*B).

As for Voldo, what makes this match so bad for Talim is the fact that Voldo doesn't have to really try in this match and he can still shut her down for huge damage. Using lows against blind stance is a viable strategy, but only if you're within 2K range. Voldo has really long reach so he can easily force you out of that range, and to top it off, almost everything Talim would normally use to get back in can be GIed by BS A+B.

Blind Stance can be dealt with, but he just beats Talim out completely in damage and safe mixups. This basically means that even when the Talim has serious momentum, he can land one CH and suddenly the match is even again. Kinda like Astaroth but with speed and loads of TCs. I once said it was 8:2, but it's definitely not that bad.

 

[SBA]

So this is wat we have so far...

Algol – 1:9
Amy – 4:6
Apprentice – 5:5
Astaroth – 4:6
Cassandra – 4:6
Cervantes – 4:6
Darth Vader – 4:6
Hilde – 4:6
Ivy – 3:7
Kilik – 3:7
Lizardman – 4:6
Maxi – 5:5
Mitsurugi – 4:6
Nightmare – 4:6
Raphael – 4:6
Rock – 6:4
Seong Mi-Na – 4:6
Setsuka – 4:6
Siegfried – 4:6
Sophitia – 4:6
Taki – 4:6
Talim – 5:5
Tira – 5:5
Voldo – 3:7
Xianghua – 4:6
Yoda – 5:5
Yoshimitsu – 4:6
Yun-Seong – 5:5
Zasalamel – not sure

We need more input...

come on yall, i kno there are more Talim players out there

 

[ZeroEffect317]

I put Lizardman at a 4:6 cause I don't think he's that much trouble even though he has an advantage.

 

[Uber1337]

So I picked up talim a few weeks ago because I for some reason love playing bad characters. Anyways, i feel like my talim is pretty decent now, but I do still have a few problems against some characters. Right now my big problem is against kilik. WR B and 1B just keep messing me up. How am I supposed to get around this? 1B seems to get around and away from everything i throw out. In general, does Talim have a good(safe) longer distance attack that covers step? cause that seems to be a hole in my game right now which moves like 1B exploit

 

[Talim JP]

You can try .
I think it's the longest range move Talim has.
It sometimes has a strange hit box.
Wouldn't really call it safe though.

 

[Freakysound]

6A+B will be stepped by kilik 1B i think
maybe 22_88A will be more effective
more fast, anti step , and safe , high but 1B isn't TC

44K,44AA could maybe work good also (need to test)
1B is unsafe at -16 don't forget to punish it with BB

against WS B i haven't fund good solution

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Best answer to WS B and 1B in most cases is to just block. If you can anticipate 1B, a well timed AS A+B or AS K should work, or maybe 22K to avoid both that and WS B even though you likely won't hit him.

As for safety, you don't have much, but what Freakysound said about 22A might work on 1B. Keep in mind that Kilik doesn't get a whole lot off of punishment until you do something horribly unsafe like -20 or so. So things like AS B+K aren't that risky. Even less so if we're talking online.

But for general info though, 22A is her farthest ranged safe stepkiller.

 

[SBA]

I need something for long range
I usually do 11b6 AS A+B, but lately ive been getting punished way to hard
i need more practice against talims
WHY DUSNT ANYONE PLAY HER ONLINE?!?!?

 

[Talim JP]

Are you usin Talim or playin against Talim?

I only use Talim so I'm usin her online.

I mainly stick to 5 bars so mostly play Japan/Korean based playas only.
With friends I'll go down to 3 bars though.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

For those of you who have problems dealing with Kilik and his 1B, WS B, and Asura Dance options, I've discovered that 44K is a really solid option to beat them.

It catches 1B out of step. It catches WS B and even if it doesn't beat it, you get hit in the air, so he can't combo you. And it beats Asura cause it's a Kick. It's also a safe way to cover distance. Freakysound actually mentioned 44K in an earlier post, but I didn't think it was this good against him.

InsaneKhent gets the credit for this find though, as he brought it up the idea to me one day. I tried it out a bit and it works wonders in a lot of situations.