Crazyfirefly
[10] Knight
I was lost in this thread of utter madness then a small sensible light appeared...
Tekken = Soul Calibur?
- Thread starter fallacie
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l3wis_1337
[08] Mercenary
Sorry for double post, would not allow me to edit my post further-
SF is a 2D fighter whereas Tekken and SC are 3D fighters, they're not quite the same category so I'm afraid I can't agree, Capcom attract virtually an entirely different audience with SF...
Plus I used to be quite the fan of SF... didn't like SF4 though, just got too hard haha!
SF is a 2D fighter whereas Tekken and SC are 3D fighters, they're not quite the same category so I'm afraid I can't agree, Capcom attract virtually an entirely different audience with SF...
Plus I used to be quite the fan of SF... didn't like SF4 though, just got too hard haha!
Mamoru_Hasukage
[10] Knight
XD Is all good. And I only bring it up because others that I speak to like to bring it up anyway. I personnaly can not stand how nothing changes from iteration to iteration. Plus the characters feel exactly the same. Where as Sc tekken and even Virtua fighter, the moves undergo changes so you have to learn again and the characters feel distinct and unique.
I do however like SF4's aesthetics. The water thing is not only nice looking, but as a modeler/animator I respect them for doing such a thing in the first place (let alone make the water look close to real as they did). XD
Cosmic_Castaway
[09] Warrior
I knew there would be a thread on this site that forced me to create an account someday...
Just to clear something up real quick, MYK's analysis of Kazuya where he was 29/29 (i.e. the best character in the game) was during Tekken 6.0. Kazuya still retained his A+ block punishment, but all of his useful tools from 6.0 were toned down to a point where Kazuya is now an average, mid-tier character.
Now then:
Secondly, it is clear to me that you do not have a full grasp of the way Tekken works. Throwing out Kaz f,f+3 whenever you feel like it, and having it hit, is not (98% of the time) dumb luck. You either read your opponent well, or your opponent simply doesn't know how to play. I will go on the conclusion that it is the latter, since you have implied that your basics in Tekken (yes, reading and adapting to players is a fundamental) are sub-par at best. When you play someone that does not have patience, which is the most important fundamental in any fighting game, you will destroy them with anything whenever you want to. Since it is obvious you are on this level of sub-par play, then any point you can possibly make about that game is moot.
As far as the "namedrop" of Ryan Hart, I would contest the notion that anyone who ranked in top 8 at Evo is not the best player in their country. MikeBreezy92 is 100% correct in saying that Ryan Hart is the best player in the UK, but I would add that players like Cobra Commander, Asim, and Dinosaur are incredibly solid as well. If you are, however, trying to argue that others like Starscream and Bullrage are on Ryan's levels, then I suggest you not do that. Ryan's clearly the best in the UK, and he has proven it time and again.
And to the point of, "At least in SF and the like you're only in serious trouble if you guess wrong + the opponent has meter": Are you trying to argue that if you guessed wrong in Marvel you'd be "alright" just because your opponent didn't have any meter? Obviously not. This is also untrue of games like Mortal Kombat, Blazblue, etc. If you make a mistake against any player worth their weight, you will be in trouble. Fact.
While you are correct in saying that frames are a vital part of online play, your statement of "+ combos" is another indication that you simply are ignorant in regards to this game. There is much more to Tekken than juggles, and I would be happy to explain in detail why that is, but I have this feeling that it would fall on deaf ears. PM me if you're genuinely interested (That goes for anyone reading this thread).
I would like to know where you have this notion that Aris plays solely on fundamentals for any game. Half of my setups in Tekken come from watching Aris, and I'm sure as hell you aren't implying he plays only on fundamentals for SC. Aris knows a ton about every game he plays, and saying he does not is a claim of ignorance. Here's an idea though, you wait for Tekken Tag 2, and just do as you predict: Look up changes for Kaz, choose another character to partner him with (I'd recommend Hei or DJ, since you already play Mishimas), and then go to tournaments. And I'm not talking Backyard Barbeque Throwdown at Billy's. Attend major tournaments, and see how well you do. Will you go 0-2? Probably not, there's a lot of people that suck. Top 16 of 50+ though? Nope. Maybe not even top 32.
Thinking that any fighting game takes minimal effort (i.e. a week, as you are suggesting) to compete at a solid level is a claim by shitty players trying to back up bias. I have no idea how anyone keeps interest in games AE, Arcana Heart, etc. at competitive level, but would I suggest that I could perform at a level comparable to even an average player in those games? Never, and if you think that fighting games are that easy, then you should not be playing them in the first place.
Just to clear something up real quick, MYK's analysis of Kazuya where he was 29/29 (i.e. the best character in the game) was during Tekken 6.0. Kazuya still retained his A+ block punishment, but all of his useful tools from 6.0 were toned down to a point where Kazuya is now an average, mid-tier character.
Now then:
What four or five US Tekken players would those be then? Because I guarantee you that there are at least 25+ you should be respecting.
Secondly, it is clear to me that you do not have a full grasp of the way Tekken works. Throwing out Kaz f,f+3 whenever you feel like it, and having it hit, is not (98% of the time) dumb luck. You either read your opponent well, or your opponent simply doesn't know how to play. I will go on the conclusion that it is the latter, since you have implied that your basics in Tekken (yes, reading and adapting to players is a fundamental) are sub-par at best. When you play someone that does not have patience, which is the most important fundamental in any fighting game, you will destroy them with anything whenever you want to. Since it is obvious you are on this level of sub-par play, then any point you can possibly make about that game is moot.
As far as the "namedrop" of Ryan Hart, I would contest the notion that anyone who ranked in top 8 at Evo is not the best player in their country. MikeBreezy92 is 100% correct in saying that Ryan Hart is the best player in the UK, but I would add that players like Cobra Commander, Asim, and Dinosaur are incredibly solid as well. If you are, however, trying to argue that others like Starscream and Bullrage are on Ryan's levels, then I suggest you not do that. Ryan's clearly the best in the UK, and he has proven it time and again.
And to the point of, "At least in SF and the like you're only in serious trouble if you guess wrong + the opponent has meter": Are you trying to argue that if you guessed wrong in Marvel you'd be "alright" just because your opponent didn't have any meter? Obviously not. This is also untrue of games like Mortal Kombat, Blazblue, etc. If you make a mistake against any player worth their weight, you will be in trouble. Fact.
While you are correct in saying that frames are a vital part of online play, your statement of "+ combos" is another indication that you simply are ignorant in regards to this game. There is much more to Tekken than juggles, and I would be happy to explain in detail why that is, but I have this feeling that it would fall on deaf ears. PM me if you're genuinely interested (That goes for anyone reading this thread).
I would like to know where you have this notion that Aris plays solely on fundamentals for any game. Half of my setups in Tekken come from watching Aris, and I'm sure as hell you aren't implying he plays only on fundamentals for SC. Aris knows a ton about every game he plays, and saying he does not is a claim of ignorance. Here's an idea though, you wait for Tekken Tag 2, and just do as you predict: Look up changes for Kaz, choose another character to partner him with (I'd recommend Hei or DJ, since you already play Mishimas), and then go to tournaments. And I'm not talking Backyard Barbeque Throwdown at Billy's. Attend major tournaments, and see how well you do. Will you go 0-2? Probably not, there's a lot of people that suck. Top 16 of 50+ though? Nope. Maybe not even top 32.
Thinking that any fighting game takes minimal effort (i.e. a week, as you are suggesting) to compete at a solid level is a claim by shitty players trying to back up bias. I have no idea how anyone keeps interest in games AE, Arcana Heart, etc. at competitive level, but would I suggest that I could perform at a level comparable to even an average player in those games? Never, and if you think that fighting games are that easy, then you should not be playing them in the first place.
Mamoru_Hasukage
[10] Knight
*hands other guy neosporin*
Much respect my friend. Not a single curse word and it is not talking down to him either. Much respect.
Actually, I was suggesting that Asim was the best UK Tekken player right now. As for Aris, I know he knows pretty much everything - but he plays a style that relies more heavily on his basics than many players, in fact its probably his biggest strength in Tekken, one of the reasons I like to watch him.
as for ff3 - tell me honestly I run signifficant risk post EWGF subsequent mixup midscreen? I can WD WS3, hellsweep, df2 etc etc. As for Tekken taking minimal effort, I can BDC, whiff punish, punish, deal with punishable strings, read the spreadsheets. I've done the same with SCIV and Tekken is easier to play comparitively. In fact, to play at mid level, Tekken is possibly one of the easiest mainstreams to play half competently.
And juggles are not sole focus? Did you see Rip in EVO 2K11 finals? Granted Aris punished him for it only once, but even so... When on defence, the damage potential of juggles are primary concern, mixup ensuing thereafter.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't say I was a tournament champion - I just said I've placed in a couple of tournaments and observed more than a few, seen how it is played at high level extensively and do not consider it as deep at Soul. Not by a long shot.
as for ff3 - tell me honestly I run signifficant risk post EWGF subsequent mixup midscreen? I can WD WS3, hellsweep, df2 etc etc. As for Tekken taking minimal effort, I can BDC, whiff punish, punish, deal with punishable strings, read the spreadsheets. I've done the same with SCIV and Tekken is easier to play comparitively. In fact, to play at mid level, Tekken is possibly one of the easiest mainstreams to play half competently.
And juggles are not sole focus? Did you see Rip in EVO 2K11 finals? Granted Aris punished him for it only once, but even so... When on defence, the damage potential of juggles are primary concern, mixup ensuing thereafter.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't say I was a tournament champion - I just said I've placed in a couple of tournaments and observed more than a few, seen how it is played at high level extensively and do not consider it as deep at Soul. Not by a long shot.
KingAce
HERMITISM
There's is a lot of ignorance in this thread, and T6 is my first try at this franchise.
Hands down the only community that I respect competitively is the Tekken community. And the only reason I say this, is because they're exists a huge mountain in skill between an average tournament player, a Japanese tournament player and a professional Korean player.
Tekken is currently the only popular fighting game that actually has a pro level. If you find the game easy, it's probably because your community sucks at the game.
Tekken is definitely not easy. Complaining about combos is amateur at best. There's a lot of trash tactics you go through when developing that you realize, that they don't apply at the pro level. The most important thing in Tekken is Spacing, mind games and reaction. At the lower levels, you can get away with a lot of things that are rarely used at the Pro level. As far as great players out of Asia, Kor, NYC Fab, InsaneLee, Genius come to mind, not Ryan Hart and Aris.
You have to be able to actually take games off guys like Knee, SunChip, Rain, and JDCR in tournaments to be relevant in my opinion.
Hands down the only community that I respect competitively is the Tekken community. And the only reason I say this, is because they're exists a huge mountain in skill between an average tournament player, a Japanese tournament player and a professional Korean player.
Tekken is currently the only popular fighting game that actually has a pro level. If you find the game easy, it's probably because your community sucks at the game.
Tekken is definitely not easy. Complaining about combos is amateur at best. There's a lot of trash tactics you go through when developing that you realize, that they don't apply at the pro level. The most important thing in Tekken is Spacing, mind games and reaction. At the lower levels, you can get away with a lot of things that are rarely used at the Pro level. As far as great players out of Asia, Kor, NYC Fab, InsaneLee, Genius come to mind, not Ryan Hart and Aris.
You have to be able to actually take games off guys like Knee, SunChip, Rain, and JDCR in tournaments to be relevant in my opinion.
Mamoru_Hasukage
[10] Knight
Agreed that Tekken is not easy. However, when fighting those online that ONLY (wish I could use italics) use trash tactics, I can see how those get such an opinion. But on the other hand it is unfair to judge a game only on bad players as well.
However, I do not agree that you say tekken is the "only popular fighting game that actually has pro level". That I find not only unfair to say, but incorrect as well. There are many fighting games that are popular that do and to say tekken is the only one would be stooping yourself to ignorance that challenges that of anyone else who have been nerd raging the past...5 pages is it? Yeah it is....Anyway. I am not coming down on you, just stating what I am seeing.
Isn't this what I was arguing? Difficulty is relative to level of competition. Hence to play at mid level, it is easy and to play at UK tourney standard, maybe not to win but it doesn't take a genius to play and place reasonably.
Whatever, I agree anyway =/.
@Mamoru
Don't mention online if you want to discuss a game, offline and online are two differant games and the latter is significantly worse, not to mention impossible to play at high level... In any FG.
Whatever, I agree anyway =/.
@Mamoru
Don't mention online if you want to discuss a game, offline and online are two differant games and the latter is significantly worse, not to mention impossible to play at high level... In any FG.
Cosmic_Castaway
[09] Warrior
Asim is a very good player, but he simply isn't as good as Ryan. He does not have the experience Ryan does, and Ryan's fundamentals have been cultivated and maintained since competitively playing Tekken Tag. To my knowledge, Asim has just gotten his feet wet with BR (Tekken 6: Bloodline Rebellion), but I am prepared to be wrong. Irregardless, Ryan has more than proven this point on his own, so I don't need to continue here.
And I can tell you honestly that f,f+3 post EWGF is not a good choice. The opponent is at -5 after EWGF, with lots of pushback (You should know this). Not only is f,f+3 linear, but it also comes out in 20 frames. At +5, it obviously comes out at 15f, but the kicker is that the opponent is still able to shut down this option by just sidewalking. It's just that easy.
For WD mixups in general, unless you have superb execution, the only invisible option (read: impossible to block on reaction) from WDs for Mishimas is the hellsweep. So when you see a Mishima approach with a WD, you can automatically limit their options, and adjust your anticipations accordingly. A Mishima player that has yet to give you a reason to duck will almost always go for a hellsweep. They want you to start ducking so they can run actual mixups, so just don't let it get to that point. I used to play Kazuya, and I've played against several Mishimas players, and the fact is that when you duck and launch one or two hellsweeps from a Mishima player, you put the fear of God in them, and by simply blocking, you can limit their options significantly, and chances are high that they will simply not try mixups that much. You can do maybe 30 damage to me with a Hellsweep, while I can take 70+ points off your health when I block it? High risk, medium reward is a significant risk for what you're suggesting. And once that option isn't free damage anymore, all the other player has to do is block. Turtling against a Mishima is the easiest way to beat them.
So you have obviously put time and effort into Tekken, yet you suggest it takes minimal effort. BDC'ing, whiff punishing, all of this takes time. By simply putting in time to learn this game, and having attended a few tournaments, only to say that you are mid level defeats the purpose of saying the game takes minimal effort. You should, by now, be laying hands on Ryan for his title, given your conclusion that this game is just that easy. The sheer amount of matchups in Tekken over games like SC is evidence of just how much commitment the game takes at mid-to-high-level play.
Rip's character is low-risk:high-reward. Law gets launches off of everything, that's simply how he plays. Juggles are certainly where the highest damage is at, but there is only a handful of characters (Law included in this) that are able to go for launchers as liberally as Rip does. Here I cite Fab and Kor's GF matches at Evo2K11, Kor and FightingGM's GF matches at CEO 2k11, and FightingGM's matches against Knee, Nin, and Holeman at MLG. All of these videos are excellent examples of patience and turtling as the dominant method of victory in Tekken. You will see juggles here and there, but please observe the focus on defense. I will also cite that many potential Tekken players will not pursue Tekken competitively when they realize how incredibly defensive this game is, and how excessive launch attempts will get you nowhere but going 0-2 at any tournament.
If Tekken is not as deep as SC, then you should have no problem competing in it. A superficial and numerical understanding of the game that is not reached through extensive experience simply will not hold weight in an argument about competitive play. So again, I suggest that you do some homework once Tag 2 is out and make a name for yourself.
Mamoru_Hasukage
[10] Knight
If you read all of what I said, you would see i noted both on and offline. :/ I will mention it because it was put into the game and it would be disrespectful to ignore apart of a game I love. And I would not agree entirely on the notion of it being worse based on those. Impossible to gauge? Yes. Impossible to play on high level? Not always. I am not saying it is absolute shit, but i would agree for the most part it is more fun offline.
I would also respectfully ask if you do not tell me what I can or cannot discuss when it comes to a game. It is not like I am putting down others' opinions nor spouting out incorrect facts and claiming them as true. It is rude, but I will ask respectfully to not tell me what I can or cannot say. Thank you.
Crazyfirefly
[10] Knight
Sigh* people, people...when will you learn that you can't compare apples and oranges? True both Tekken and SC are in the fighting game genre however that's pretty much where the similarities end. It's a different game and saying that one game requires more skill than the other is pointless because each game requires an entirely different skill set to play well. Tekken, (and correct me if I'm wrong tekken people.) is a game in which you try to out maneuver your opponent, soul calibur however is a game in which you play yourself. What I mean by that is that when playing SC (and I think most everyone will agree with me on this point.) You aren't watching your opponent's character as much as you are watching your own, seeing when you at an advantage, a disadvantage, or in the proper position to counter your opponents attack. We all know what happens when we watch the opponent instead of our own character. (AKA the pretty fire affect unblockable's seem to have where you just stand there and take it...if you have no idea what I'm talking about you have ether never played S.C or your just that godly.) However since people seem to have forgotten the differences in the game I'm going to break it down for you.
Tekken:
Non weapon's based fighting game
No input for blocking
Longer input's to pull off moves.
GIing and Parring like moves aren't huge in gameplay. (At least from what I can tell so far because they are hard as hell to pull off unless you play that Asuka chick who is like loaded down with that crap.)
Also set in modern day
No 8 way run
No ring outs
No air control
SC:
Weapons based
Input for blocking
Commands don't take a ton of input. (most complicated moves involve analog, simultaneous press, and maybe an additional button.
GIing, Parring HUGE part of gameplay (Personally I think so)
Set several hundred years ago in the past
8 way run
ring outs
air control
critical finish
*On a side note if your comparing quality of an active scene it's pretty clear Tekken has the upper hand. However a game's "fan base" is hardly a sign of a good game. Lets take COD a franchise in which the last three most recent games have just been regurgitations of their predecessors. Once you've played one you've played them all. Not saying Tekken fall into that category however a "my fan base is bigger than your fan base arguement" is hardly effective. Comparing Tekken and SC is like trying to compare a good online player to a good offline player you just can't because they are two different games.
Tekken:
Non weapon's based fighting game
No input for blocking
Longer input's to pull off moves.
GIing and Parring like moves aren't huge in gameplay. (At least from what I can tell so far because they are hard as hell to pull off unless you play that Asuka chick who is like loaded down with that crap.)
Also set in modern day
No 8 way run
No ring outs
No air control
SC:
Weapons based
Input for blocking
Commands don't take a ton of input. (most complicated moves involve analog, simultaneous press, and maybe an additional button.
GIing, Parring HUGE part of gameplay (Personally I think so)
Set several hundred years ago in the past
8 way run
ring outs
air control
critical finish
*On a side note if your comparing quality of an active scene it's pretty clear Tekken has the upper hand. However a game's "fan base" is hardly a sign of a good game. Lets take COD a franchise in which the last three most recent games have just been regurgitations of their predecessors. Once you've played one you've played them all. Not saying Tekken fall into that category however a "my fan base is bigger than your fan base arguement" is hardly effective. Comparing Tekken and SC is like trying to compare a good online player to a good offline player you just can't because they are two different games.
@ Mamoru
If you want to make a serious point about how Tekken or SC or whatever plays out - don't mention online. It is completely worthless comparitive to offline play and strongly misrepresents how the game works. I'm not going into discussion about this - its fact.
I just feel I have to think harder and work harder to get my damage when playing Soul and as for TTT2, I have zero interest in it as I believe the tag team fighting mechanic in any fighter to be inheritantly flawed. I'll wait for T7.
And I know I'm not taking Ryan down any time soon lol, I just feel to play Tekken well doesn't take as much work as people say it does, you just need good reactions, frame knowledge, matchup knowledge and good execution to achieve this.
Check. Check. Semi Check and Check. 12 months of play did this.
I'm no high level Tekken player, but I can play and I don't see where the added depth comes in - its just yomi at my level...
If you want to make a serious point about how Tekken or SC or whatever plays out - don't mention online. It is completely worthless comparitive to offline play and strongly misrepresents how the game works. I'm not going into discussion about this - its fact.
Hmm, maybe so but I really don't consider things like whiff punishment, BDC and reaction throw breaks especially difficult (thankyou rips training game ^^), though certain characters throw games give me a lot of trouble and I do find myself guessing quite often. =/
I just feel I have to think harder and work harder to get my damage when playing Soul and as for TTT2, I have zero interest in it as I believe the tag team fighting mechanic in any fighter to be inheritantly flawed. I'll wait for T7.
And I know I'm not taking Ryan down any time soon lol, I just feel to play Tekken well doesn't take as much work as people say it does, you just need good reactions, frame knowledge, matchup knowledge and good execution to achieve this.
Check. Check. Semi Check and Check. 12 months of play did this.
I'm no high level Tekken player, but I can play and I don't see where the added depth comes in - its just yomi at my level...
KingAce
HERMITISM
And which other fighter might you be implying? SF or Marvel? Because it's not SC4 that's for sure. While SF4 vanilla had a lot of competitive integrity in my eyes, AE is a joke. I don't see what will stop any individual from reaching the top of any of those games...it only takes some dedication. Pro level to me literally means untouchable. Only someone near your level should ever beat you.
Mamoru_Hasukage
[10] Knight
And again, I take into account both. Sure, the offline and online do not compare, and I agree it is not a good representation. However, ignoring something part of the game is the literal definition of ignorance. It is fine if you do not want to discuss that, but do not ignore everything else because you decided to ignore online only.
Mamoru_Hasukage
[10] Knight
And that right there is what I mean. You do not take into account that there are *currently* pros in all of these games (yes even sc). As silly as it is that I am defending the term "pro gamer", to say one has them and the other does not based on your opinion is extremely unfair to those who do show dedication and pride in their abilities, thus, making you miss represent those people you are defending.
KingAce
HERMITISM
It's not about what's fair or what isn't fair. When I use the word Pro, coming from a Starcraft BW background I literally mean that. I don't mean some self imposed title you give yourself for winning some tournaments. For a game to actually have a professional level, it has to be that difficult. It has to demand a ton of skill and dedication that only those that put in a similar amount of effort can touch the pros. Every other popular FG is noob friendly...this is something that can not be argued. Tekken is the only game that remains unforgiving with a huge level of entry.
When everyone starts carrying around a notepad for strategies in those other games you let me know.
Mamoru_Hasukage
[10] Knight
Ah but there are those people. To me, I take Soul calibur and tekken on the same level of difficulty. Are the juggles annoying? Yes. Do I consider them hard to avoid when given the opportunity? Yes and no. With Soul Calibur and tekken they can both be easy to come in on, but at a certain point you will meet people that will hand your as to you on multiple levels. I am not speaking online, I meant this as a series, so even before their newest iterations. Tekken is difficult because the curve requires you to understand each button is connected to a limb. Understand that you controll the whole body, you are golden. For soul calibur, you have to take it as real swordsmanship. It is an extension of you, and if you understand this, you are ready for more.
Both have pro levels. I care not what the background is you come from, it is ignorant regardless to say one has something and the other does not because of a bias. It is also not true that one (does not matter which) is more difficult that the other because that depends on the opponent and how you use the system. Unless we are talking NPCs, in which case, both are just cheap. Which Is the one thing I dont like in either situation because there is no curve, however, we do not care about NPCs in this situation.
My point is, there is no standing in saying that tekken is "pro" and soul calibur is not because they both are. End of story. If you like one over the other, that is fine. No one is without opinion and who am I to say that someone is wrong for their opinion. However, to say something like this is based on background, that is bias, and opinion.
Cosmic_Castaway
[09] Warrior
Difficult in theory, no. But being on point with them in a position where something of value is at risk (from tournaments to money matches) requires conditioning and discipline, same with every fighting game. It is no less important in Tekken than it is those games, nor is it easier to apply in Tekken.
Now your main point has changed from "Tekken rewards dumb luck" to "It's just harder to do damage in Soul Calibur." Please cite examples of where Soul Calibur's added depth lies, which Tekken apparently lacks in your eyes. If it is merely opinion, then great, but don't treat it as fact. All of those aspects you're stating are that apparently contribute to Tekken being easy are inherent in all fighting games, and they are all of equal importance in them. If you have none of those things in any game, you can't be good. Exactly where is Tekken lacking?
And you played for 12 months? That is far from minimal effort, and since you're not high level (I would even debate that you are not mid-level), I think we can conclude that Tekken does not require minimal effort, and you simply prefer Soul Calibur. That's fine of course, but it doesn't make Tekken any less notable of a game.
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