Tier Discussion

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Ring said:
I agree with top tiers.

Maxou, can you explain why did you put Aeon so "high"? Right now I think he's definitely bottom tier, worse than Siegfried.
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- 66A + good spacing game (post patch the backdash nerf helped him a great deal)
- correct damage out of combos
- correct throw game
- correct pokes
- very good RO game
- correct auto-evades moves.

Crysack said:
I would also like to know this. Also, why is Omega suddenly top tier?
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Why suddenly?
She was always ridiculously strong. Now she's even stronger.
Look at it this way : backdash nerf = 66B is antibackdash for -6 moves > her antistep game is now stronger because you can't backdash > opponent will freeze more > she can deal more guard damage / she can open guard more.
 
Updated post-patch thoughts:

Top Tier: Alpha, Cervantes, Omega
High Tier: Algol, Astaroth*, Ivy*, Mitsurugi, Patroklos*, Viola*
Upper-Mid Tier: Aeon*, Hilde*, Nightmare, Pyrrha, Voldo, Yoshimitsu
Mid Tier: Lexia, Maxi, Natsu*, Siegfried, Xiba
Lower-Mid Tier: Ezio, Tira
Low Tier: Dampierre, Raphael, Zwei

* = Not sure.
 
Goofy said:
Updated post-patch thoughts:

Top Tier: Alpha, Cervantes, Omega
High Tier: Algol, Astaroth*, Ivy*, Mitsurugi, Patroklos*
Upper-Mid Tier: Aeon*, Hilde*, Nightmare, Pyrrha, Viola*, Voldo
Mid Tier: Lexia, Maxi, Natsu*, Siegfried, Xiba, Yoshimitsu*
Lower-Mid Tier: Ezio, Tira
Low Tier: Dampierre, Raphael, Zwei

* = Not sure.
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Nightmare not even high tier? But worst of all...

Aeon in the same tier as Nightmare? O...M...G

What the hell are you sniffing?
 
Goofy said:
The Truth.
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*sees that you main Nightmare in your sig.

Ah, I see the truth now.

Frame data doesn't tell the whole story. Like his insane spacing and pushback. You NM mainers can quit falling back on that, no one's buying it.

Truth is, you're obviously way too biased to come up with a semi-respectable tier list. That you didn't even place Nightmare high tier, and that you placed him with AEON(!) - Aeon for the love of God - is reason enough to laugh at your list. Compare their tournament results and come back please. Thank you.

Next.
 
Kalas said:
Tournament results don't equal tier position.
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To be honest I think this whole "Tier Discussion" thing is silly. What exactly are we basing the tiers on?
-Ease of use
-Match-ups
-Tournament results
-Frame data
-Theory-crafting
-General familiarity
-Combo potential

Regardless of which you choose, I think the only character that was undoubtedly top-tier was Natsu 1.0.

That being said, I don't think it's fair to base tier lists on theory or frame data. I keep seeing aPat placed in top-tier, with the assumption that someone can input all of his just frames flawlessly and do ridiculous damage combos. That's a silly thing to base a tier list on because I can just as theoretically say that an Astaroth can JG all of his moves and punish with 22k. Of course that becomes a crazy circle because no one is humanly capable of doing such things, and I don't think anyone cares about a Legendary Souls tier list.

Likewise I don't think it's fair to say that tournament results don't equal tier position as well. They do play some part, while I agree they are not definite, they definitely hold some weight to them. If an aPat player can't continue with the same level of execution for 12 rounds of a tournament, then the argument of him being a top-tier character yet never winning a tournament negates the whole concept of a tier list as I'm surely not worried about what tier my character is when I'm playing casuals against my friends.

When it comes to characters like Astaroth, I disagree with him being placed anywhere above mid-tier because he is too chancy. Very little of his damage is guaranteed: grabs are 50/50, many of his moves are slow and count on opponents making a mistake or stepping into something at a fuzzy distance, it's difficult for him to do much other than turtle at close range. Theoretically, he could either be an absolute powerhouse or absolute garbage, depending on guessing, which makes for a weak determinant of tier.

So again, character knowledge should also be a factor. Pyrrha's move set is simple, many of her attacks are projected, unlike a character like Yoshimitsu who keeps you on your toes, where you never know what move may come next. Again, a reason why I would keep Pyrrha at mid-tier at highest. Yes, 236B is a powerful punisher, but then again you're anticipating you have an opponent that will use unsafe moves at a punishable range and won't frame trap you. Another dicey prediction to make. Same reason why I can't see Oprah being top-tier. A player like Keev wouldn't throw unsafe moves (oh wait, all NM's moves are unsafe) at a point where he would be ranged for a DNS B punish because he has better character knowledge than that and knows how to space her out properly.

So let's agree on why and for what we're making a tier list before we say "X is top tier, Y is trash", and apply more than just tournament results and frame data.

And as an initial weak tier-list for myself given, my thoughts, and only judgements I feel comfortable making in this wall of text:

Mid: Astaroth, Pyrrha, Pyrrha Omega

If I get 10 likes I'll do a TL;DR video for everyone (been a while since I made a YouTube video/commentary).
 
srsgamer87 said:
*sees that you main Nightmare in your sig.

Ah, I see the truth now.

Frame data doesn't tell the whole story. Like his insane spacing and pushback. You NM mainers can quit falling back on that, no one's buying it.

Truth is, you're obviously way too biased to come up with a semi-respectable tier list. That you didn't even place Nightmare high tier, and that you placed him with AEON(!) - Aeon for the love of God - is reason enough to laugh at your list. Compare their tournament results and come back please. Thank you.

Next.
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I'm well aware of the futility in debating the topic of Nightmare's "OPness" with you, given your post record, so I'm not going to bother. However, in regards to Aeon, I'm talking about post-patch. I placed him at upper-mid largely for the same reasons as Maxou laid out:
Maxou said:
- 66A + good spacing game (post patch the backdash nerf helped him a great deal)
- correct damage out of combos
- correct throw game
- correct pokes
- very good RO game
- correct auto-evades moves.
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Also, tournament results have never been, and never will be, relevant to tier placement. Learn the match-ups and come back when you're capable of making an argument with any real validity. Thanks.
 
My list:

Top: Omega, Alpha, Cervantes, Algol
High: Phyrra, Patroklos, Asta, Viola, Ivy, Mitsu, Natsu
Mid: Maxi, Nightmare, Xiba, Yoshi, Voldo,Tira, Zwei, Hilde, Aeon, Leixia
Low: Siggy, Raphael, Dampierre,
 
Mandy said:
To be honest I think this whole "Tier Discussion" thing is silly. What exactly are we basing the tiers on?
-Ease of use
-Match-ups
-Tournament results
-Frame d...................snip
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the worst thing in the world is a scrub that types too much, and thats you unfortunatly, now where did they put the ignore button on this forum?,
 
Okay, after re-evaluating I personally think that some factors that are often an oversight, are way too important to be ignored for tierlists.
That is:
-Range (even moreso post-patch)
-Guard-damage
-RO-game
-damage

Everyone is looking at how punishable they are, IF they can punish, framedata, lows etc.
But imo, compared to what I listed those are small factors.
NMs framedata for example doesnt matter. His pushback and his stance transition makes everything he does semi-safe to completly safe.
Guard damage is a huuuge deal aswell. I mean obviously u can get your best combo out of a guard break, but the mindgames around it are even better at times. Even the best players struggle with a flashing guard and I cant count how many times ive seen someone start a round in code red, and then loose that round without the guard getting broken because they kept getting counterhit 24/7 out of desperation.
NM is good at this aswell.
Ro game is super important aswell. Who cares about frame data if you can just ro with 1 hit. NM can RO out of pretty much any position, even from the middle of the map with some combos.
Also, damage is very important. Its the reason why some fighters are low-tier. Raphael and Ezio come to my mind and pre-patch viola. One nightmare hit does almost as much dmg as a raphael or ezio combo, a nightmare combo, especially with the easy wallcarry, can do 50 to 60% of your hp, even more with a wall. Raphael has to hit his staple combo twice to "counter" 1 NM combo.

So yeah, now im convinced that NM actually is top tier. I also think that asta, algol and partially ivy have similar strengths and are high tier aswell. I also dont think Siggi is low tier anymore. His weaknesses are more exploitable than NMs weaknesses, but his range, pushback, RO game and damage outclasses a bigger part of the cast, so I think he is easily mid tier, maybe upper mid.

Opinionions?
 
ShinJin said:
the worst thing in the world is a scrub that types too much, and thats you unfortunatly, now where did they put the ignore button on this forum?,
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You seem salty my friend

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windirein said:
Okay, after re-evaluating I personally think that some factors that are often an oversight, are way too important to be ignored for tierlists.
That is:
-Range (even moreso post-patch)
-Guard-damage
-RO-game
-damage
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Completely agree. Frame data is useful for learning match-ups, but definitely not be-all-end-all information. Now while range is an issue, of course frame data does play into it a bit, if your ranged attacks are so slow to the point that someone can get in reasonably, than it's not much of a threat, but NM has reasonable speed for his reach, as does Sieg.
 
Range is definitely important but i believe its save to say that spacing chars are the biggest losers of the backdash nerf. Sure when you look at it from an offensive point of view than the longer your range the harder it is to escape for your enemy. The thing though is, close range chars are not trying to get away, they try to get closer and the backdash nerf makes it a lot harder for spacing chars to keep opponents away.

Backdash nerf overall benefits aggressive chars most and hurts defensive, spacing chars.
 
I'll admit that I'm only average with regards to playing SCV. But when someone comes along with such a contrarian standpoint, it can be interesting to see what their arguments are.
 
MntT77 said:
I'll admit that I'm only average with regards to playing SCV. But when someone comes along with such a contrarian standpoint, it can be interesting to see what their arguments are.
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indeed, still watch the video :)
 
MntT77 said:
If you think you can justify Siegfried not being put in low tier then be my guest.
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Read my post plox. Most of it is true for Siegfried. Siggi has good range, very evasive stances, deals alot of damage and can ringout like a boss. Especially the latter is super good. Oh and his oki is really really deadly.
He has many good sides to him other characters dont have. Certainly not low tier. Especially since weve seen high lvl players win with him - altho only against japanese players ;3
 
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