To what extent...

[Supa]

I find it funny that people tend to base a character's overall safety on whether or not Pyrrha can punish. No sarcasm here at all, just lol.

It's traditional and practical. Stab has always been a relatively low frame punish that's very easy to do and has a high reward into possible combos, etc. You wouldn't compare everything to Natsu's AA or Yoshimitsu iMCF since these don't really work as the best punishes even though they're faster than stab.

 

[Aeuen]

As I did not touch SC3/4 I can't comment much on taki then, but when SC2 was first out Taki seemed amazing especially when people started using EXC, and everyone thought she was top's, all her strings were fairly safe, and there was a mid ender for most strings, and with AB you can't step her nor duck to punish, you have to stand there and just basically block, and look for an opening...and sometimes it can look like taki is just going and going and going.. I felt her pressure game was much better in 2 then in 5...

Now moving forward to SC5... Her damage has gone up drastically and thats a plus, but it really requires CH. 4A+B, and 2A+B are great for damage but who gets hit by this? other then during wake up. And lets not forget that she is not the only one whose had a drastic damage increase. And at the same time you can say that in essence, our poke damage has lost value somewhat.

Take into consideration that she no longer has any string variation, no more delays, good sized negative frames on every attack on block, easy to react to string enders. There are plenty of new holes that people are just not familiar with and in due time will all become second nature to get around...

Taki always had one big flow and that really has not changed, and is and was the biggest reason taki was and I feel will always be near mid tier range.... Mainly No range, and NO MIX UP's, I read somewhere someone posted great, mix up.. but where? what mix up... High and a Mid mix up?...

I can be wrong as I'm mainly a SC2 taki that hasnt played for ages, and coming back into a new game, but I'm still seeing the same problems trying stuff out... When a player spaces well, and are patient, It just feels like the biggest uphill battle STILL.

Just my 2cents...

 

[Cubby]

Just my 2cents...

Agreed. Taki was one of my mains in SCII, III, and IV, and she seems to feel more and more gimped after III.

Sure, they upped her damage here in V, but her options just feel so limiting to me right now - mainly her POS shifts. No more AB and/or BA POS shifts, no more 99_33A POS shifts either.... I almost feel lucky anytime I get into POS safely now with the opponent still in a standing position and me in a close enough distance to apply a little pressure. No more POS side walk, no more moves from POS that can transition back into POS.... sooo limiting.

Honestly, I feel like I'm winning on her upped damage alone, and even that's only when I'm fighting someone who doesn't know her. If you generally just turtle up a lot and punish from far/mid range to avoid CH and don't tech roll much to avoid her traps, I swear Natsu has the hardest time doing much of anything to you but bitch slaps. And when the opponent is in yellow health, Natsu can have a stupidly hard time trying to bitch slap that last sliver of life away.

Her longer combos pretty much require that JF in order to complete, and right now I'm only hitting that like 75% or so. When I miss that, it can cost me the round and that is an awful feeling. Depending on her tech traps and bombs is pretty much her only other option if you can't hit that JF consistently for combo damage, and that just doesn't fly against anyone who even somewhat knows her stuff.

 

[ArcticKomodo]

... I'm only hitting that like 75% or so. When I miss that, it can cost me the round and that is an awful feeling. Depending on her tech traps and bombs is pretty much her only other option if you can't hit that JF consistently for combo damage, and that just doesn't fly against anyone who even somewhat knows her stuff.

That's fighting games for ya.

 

[Mojo]

Ahem, guys, it's been a week. No one's OP yet, and whether or not that's going to happen at all is highly debatable. Calm this noise, and just let the game develop.

For the record, I only put this thread up to see what Natsu players think because I am a Natsu player. I didn't put it up to start debates or whatever. I just wanted to see if Natsu players agree with what others are saying.

 

[Mojo]

this was a rhetorical question, i know for a fact you do.

btw here is me PROVING MY POINT

thanks for showing that you don't actually know your character though, come back to me when you are Red zo or Mo-tempist.

This vid doesn't actually prove your point. Pyrrha makes space behind herself by stabbing.

 

[Djangoknight]

Blocked into PO hits in 14 frames tech jumps lows and special lows, everyones misses...
Only Alpha Patroklos and O/Pyrrha make Natsu Bomb "unsafe" on block
while everyone eles just has to hold that G.

Spam that Death bomb ([Normal 1/3] - [CE 1/2] your hp)

 

[Bean]

Blocked into PO hits in 14 frames tech jumps lows and special lows, everyones misses...
Only Alpha Patroklos and O/Pyrrha make Natsu Bomb "unsafe" on block
while everyone eles just has to hold that G.

Spam that Death bomb ([Normal 1/3] - [CE 1/2] your hp)

Or they can just step PO K and punish Natsu with pretty much anything. 4A+B4 is in no way as overpowered as some people claim it to be. Also, it is possible to punish PO transitions with CE unless Natsu use PO BE to evade it.

 

[FataCon]

I feel like Natsu players are relying on 4A+B way too much. It's a good tool for tech traps and every now and then to catch an opponent off guard. Players should start fleshing her out and find out what else makes her dangerous besides whatever into airthrow.

 

[UnseenWombat]

It's 4A+B6 or 6A+B4 guys. Let's not confuse any noobs who come in. There's no 4A+B4.

Bean, PO A can catch step I think. So after 4A+B6, they have to guess if you're going to do PO K or PO A. Also, in this case, HOV will go over AA's and 2A's, but stab and BB beats it.

And yes, against a good player who knows how to jump, 4A+B isn't very good, though it is better than 2A+B. Against them there's really no point in throwing those moves out except for the tech traps. You really have to try to bait a counterhit with her other moves like 6A+B4 or 22_88K.

 

[ghost333]

And yes, against a good player who knows how to jump, 4A+B isn't very good,

try 4A+B~A , then they will just block low and the fight will go to mind games on PO vs crouch :P

 

[Djangoknight]

Or they can just step PO K and punish Natsu with pretty much anything. 4A+B6 is in no way as overpowered as some people claim it to be. Also, it is possible to punish PO transitions with CE unless Natsu use PO BE to evade it.

CE have frames too they don't stop time, only raphael, tira, O/pyrrha, A/patorkols, leixia, and ezio are faster then 14 frames.
everyone eles will get hit out of start up frames

 

[Swimming_Bird]

Natsu definitely isn't OP. She's just one of those characters that catches people out during the early stage of a fighting game. If you don't know how to fight her, she will seem OP. She need's CH's to do damage; her BE is duckable during the second hit, in fact ducking screws her over alot of the time; you avoid her bomb oki by teching to your right etc etc.

Natsu has to condition the opponent if she wants to get fancy; but those who don't fall for it won't really have a hard time. Not saying she won't be high tier because she is very good at getting in your head and well, she's very good at punishing people; but she's not the braindead op character everyone seems to think she is. She doesn't even seem to have much of a Guard Burst game.

 

[caseh]

Natsu definitely isn't OP. She's just one of those characters that catches people out during the early stage of a fighting game. If you don't know how to fight her, she will seem OP. She need's CH's to do damage; her BE is duckable during the second hit, in fact ducking screws her over alot of the time; you avoid her bomb oki by teching to your right etc etc.

Natsu has to condition the opponent if she wants to get fancy; but those who don't fall for it won't really have a hard time. Not saying she won't be high tier because she is very good at getting in your head and she really rewards smart play; but she's not the braindead op character everyone seems to think she is.

My main issue is just the bomb into CE then grab. Not exactly rocket science is it, reward > effort in this case. Any time she has her meter charged for a CE you have to change your game considerably as you know its coming. Should do 50% damage maximum if its a counter hit, thats my only issue with her really.

 

[frost]

Actually, you have to be on the lookout for the bomb at all times, meter or not. It's difficult, I'm aware... But 4A+B is a threat she imposes with or without the CE being available to her. Doesn't help, I know. But I'm saying you don't have to change your game 'considerably'. You should already be watching out for it.

 

[UnseenWombat]

Yeah, BT PO 8B+G does 90 damage all by itself. Can't remember what the scaling is after 4A+B6, but it still takes a huge amount of life off.

 

[sehmehnov]

Natsu is a great character, with tons of options, and those of you complaining about poor lows obviously have not played any zwei yet, natsu lows are great in comparison.

the only real issue is that she does too much damage, her setups are fair, but lets face it, she is the vanilla sagat of SCV.

 

[FataCon]

Natsu is a great character, with tons of options, and those of you complaining about poor lows obviously have not played any zwei yet, natsu lows are great in comparison.

First off, I don't think anyone is arguing that Natsu isn't a strong character. People are just being realistic. Day 1 (or even Week 1) Natsu was ridiculous because people didn't understand how to fight her. This led to Natsu getting sick damage off tech traps and people claiming she was "cheap" because they didn't block bombs. It's obvious now that Natsu does have weaknesses, and not having strong, reliable lows is realistically one of them.

Even if what you say is true (I wouldn't know because I don't play ZWEI or know much about him), "in comparison" still doesn't mean they are good. That's like saying you got second-to-last place; you're not as bad as the last guy, so you must be good!

lets face it, she is the vanilla sagat of SCV.

I won't get into it, because this is a SC board and not a SF board, but that comparison is ridiculous.

 

[sehmehnov]

First off, I don't think anyone is arguing that Natsu isn't a strong character. People are just being realistic. Day 1 (or even Week 1) Natsu was ridiculous because people didn't understand how to fight her. This led to Natsu getting sick damage off tech traps and people claiming she was "cheap" because they didn't block bombs. It's obvious now that Natsu does have weaknesses, and not having strong, reliable lows is realistically one of them.

Even if what you say is true (I wouldn't know because I don't play ZWEI or know much about him), "in comparison" still doesn't mean they are good. That's like saying you got second-to-last place; you're not as bad as the last guy, so you must be good!



I won't get into it, because this is a SC board and not a SF board, but that comparison is ridiculous.

I am not arguing with anyone, just stating the facts. Natsu was never ridiculous in my opinion, her mix-ups can be avoided by anyone who spends a few hours in training. that is not whats being discussed.

her lows are good, not amazing, but definitely not poor or second to last in comparison to the rest of the cast.

the real discussion is her damage output, the risk vs. reward is similar to that of sagats fadc-> ultra 1 in vanilla, and its not like she has low health or anything to compensate for it.

if top players agree that she is top tier, then what do you think their reasoning behind it would be? quick, low risk, high reward, strong mixup game would be my personal guess.

i understand that you probably main the character and don't like when other people are speaking their opinion on the matter, but to deny that the damage output is not somewhat skewed would be ignorant.

 

[FataCon]

I am not arguing with anyone, just stating the facts. Natsu was never ridiculous in my opinion, her mix-ups can be avoided by anyone who spends a few hours in training. that is not whats being discussed.

her lows are good, not amazing, but definitely not poor or second to last in comparison to the rest of the cast.

the real discussion is her damage output, the risk vs. reward is similar to that of sagats fadc-> ultra 1 in vanilla, and its not like she has low health or anything to compensate for it.

if top players agree that she is top tier, then what do you think their reasoning behind it would be? quick, low risk, high reward, strong mixup game would be my personal guess.

i understand that you probably main the character and don't like when other people are speaking their opinion on the matter, but to deny that the damage output is not somewhat skewed would be ignorant.

It's too early for anyone to say anything tier-wise at this point, whether top player or not.

The second-to-last is obviously an exaggeration, so don't take that literally. I was just pointing out how you needlessly brought up ZWEI for comparison.

If you could link or point me in the direction of top players talking about Natsu being top tier, I'd appreciate it (no sarcasm behind this, I'm really curious). I've been reading and discussing Natsu on the forums since the day the game came out, and there's lots of discussion about how Natsu may be a lot riskier than at first glance. Sure, as a Natsu player I'd love it if she had more safe ways to apply pressure, but that's where balance comes into play.

I main Natsu at the moment, and nobody, whether you play her or not, thinks that she's lacking in the damage department. At times, even I feel like her airthrow damages could be tweaked to be a bit lower.

It's funny that you say you don't want an argument, yet you make a statement assuming I don't want meaningful discussion on the character that I play.

If you read the Natsu forums, you can see that I'm one of the people trying to concentrate and point out weaknesses that she has. For example, she has a really tough time against Pyrrha and Mitsu, IMO because they have good normals that can either punish moves or stop her frame traps that normally work on other characters. She also has a hard time against players to block patiently, as her pressure game has a difficult time getting started safely without fear from being JG'ed. I'm just tired of hearing people say she's "cheap" or "broken" without a valid argument, especially when the game's potential hasn't been fully explored yet. Top-tier or not, people should discuss the character and not just complain about her. I'm willing to listen.

If anything, it seems like you don't like hearing others' opinions on Natsu outside of what you believe. Contrary to that, I have more reason to listen to what other's have to say about Natsu if I truly wish to improve.