Unbalanced movesets

harlekein

harlekein

[08] Mercenary
I have been noticing this in SC 2, but in SC 4 it goes into the extreme. The cast is now so big it seem Namco just has given up in making them all balanced. Not even so much in character strenghts and weaknesses (I'll leave that to the tier discussion) but in movesets.

When you look at Rock or Nightmare their moveset seems so limited. Sure, it's easier to pick up on them and learn how to play. (Even though mastering them is pretty damn hard) But at the same time your combat options are more limited. Now look at Cassandra or Yoshi. They got a move for every situation and a lot of mix ups.

I finally realised today that this is the reason why Astaroth feels handicapped to me. He just doesn't have the full toolbox like some other characters. That doesn't mean he's not viable. It just means you are more limited and thus, more predictable. And of course, you can drive in a nail with a set of pliers if you want to, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be better off with a hammer instead.

And then there's the moves that no one bothers with of course, but I don't really want to get into that either.

I don't know, I think SC would be better if Namco would limit the roster, but ensure that every character is equally equipped with a complete arsenal and has an original fighting style. I don't expect any change on this, it's just something that's been bothering me.
 
As I said before... Namco doesn't care about balance. Why spend $5 million trying to balance the game, when you can spend $5 million and get LucasFilm Licensed characters like Darth Vader and Yoda instead? Namco gets more profit from putting Star Wars characters in the game, rather than making a game that is actually well based. As well, basing the DLC on the history of Namco... you will probably NEVER see balance patches from Namco. Why spend money releasing balance patches, when they can instead release overpriced DLC that will get people coming back to the game more often than balance. Namco doesnt care about us and I haven't seen anything from them since the PS1 era that shows me that they do.

The problem with Soul Calibur is CONSISTANCY. It doesn't have it. If you look at a game like Virtua Fighter... every character has Chitaku (Three Choice); while in Soul Calibur, many characters dont even have Nitaku (Two Choice)! If a character goes into a string, what sort of choices do you have out of that string? In VF, every character has three choices, low, mid, high/throw. In SC, many characters have the choice between a low and a high; this is not even valid Nitaku since a low block avoids both. Meanwhile you have characters like Mitsu and Siegfried who have an amazing Chitaku Okizeme game.

Throw this in with inconsistancy with other aspects of the game... such as guard crushing. All guard crushes should give the same frames of advantage as any other guard crush; the way it was done in Soul Calibur 2. In SC4, some character's guard crushes actually put them at disadvantage, some even give the opponent free damage! Also remember that movesets in SC2 were TWICE the size; most characters had Nitaku situations. But it seems that since SC3, movesets were deliberately reduced to get rid of Nitaku... to make the game more Dial-A-Combo like Tekken (since SC3 and SC4 were made by the Tekken 4 crew).

Then lets talk about tracking BBs... The whole difference between an A and a B was originally that As were horizontals and tracked step, while Bs were vertical and didn't. But when you have BBs from some characters that track step 100%; it defeats the purpose. Not to mention, some characters will retrack during their combos, while other characters will continue attacking in the wrong direction. Some characters can also Hit Check, while other characters cant.

SC4, even if its unbalanced... is still fun though. However, you can make a balanced game with a large roster; just make sure to stick to consistancy. I had this in my sig on the other forums (before Neoshinji kept deleting it and replacing it with gay porn references), "You can have a move that is safe, ranged, damaging or fast; pick ONLY TWO. No move should ever have the properties of all four; this is how you make a balanced game." It pains me to see moves that have all four properties, and other moves that have zero.

I just wish VF had more flair, like flaming fists during unblockables, and white flashes during just frames.
 
harlekein said:
I don't know, I think SC would be better if Namco would limit the roster, but ensure that every character is equally equipped with a complete arsenal and has an original fighting style. I don't expect any change on this, it's just something that's been bothering me.
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I completely agree. We don't need a Nightmare and Siegfried. Make it one character. If anything, make it a duel character with different attributes. We also don't need Amy. I won't say anything about Rock. I wouldn't want to offend tlcrow. The roster could be slimmed down a bit. I'll say it. We probable don't need Mina either.
 
HervE said:
I completely agree. We don't need a Nightmare and Siegfried. Make it one character. If anything, make it a duel character with different attributes. We also don't need Amy. I won't say anything about Rock. I wouldn't want to offend tlcrow. The roster could be slimmed down a bit. I'll say it. We probable don't need Mina either.
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Mina was first. Remove kilik.
 
Good points Jaxel. Especially on the verticals. I had to adjust so much from SC2 to SC4. I couldn't sidestep anymore like I was used to. Even if it had to be toned down according to some, the way they track now is ridiculous. And indeed, inconsistent, depending on the move and the character.

If they are gonna remove Mina or Kilik is a mute point. They won't remove anyone and just keep expanding instead, shooting themselves in the feet by making balancing even harder. But then again, as long as it sells, why bother? If Namco isn't going to fix this game (glitches and stuff at least) I will have to look elsewhere for a good fighter in the future.

The great appeal to me in SC is the weapons, the variety of the characters and the fast pace and good production value. But even that last point isn't as much present anymore with the repetitive music and mostly uninspired stages.
 
From what I've seen so far there are more playable characters in IV than all previous versions of SC. Most characters have potential enough to compete with, and I have hopes that SCIV can become a very viable game over time. With that said sisters are still too good, and I do not want to learn yoshi.
 
Is balancing the game through a patch even possible? All you could do really is lessen/increase the damage of attacks. I doubt frames can be added/taken away from moves, or anything that complex. Can anything substantial balance-wise be done through a patch?
 
Balancing...Will have to wait until SC5
They did atleast make some characters better/more interesting. Tira/Zas for example. Not much better it seems.

Either way...The only time for balance is during production for a new game. >.>
 
Namco cares about balance.

...

Its just they seem to be giving the wrong series their attention. Dammit, I like Soul Calibur more; stop patching Tekken so freakin' much.
 
Remove Mina? They made her into what is essentially a completely different character in 4. Why would they remove her?
 
Isaac said:
Is balancing the game through a patch even possible? All you could do really is lessen/increase the damage of attacks. I doubt frames can be added/taken away from moves, or anything that complex. Can anything substantial balance-wise be done through a patch?
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Frame changes are definitely possible through online patching. Before every match, the characters and movesets are loaded into the system memory so that disc speed/access isn't a factor in determining game speed and fluidity. (For an example, after loading a match in SC2 or 3, if you took out the disc, you could still play the remainder of the round, you just didn't hear any music.

Because of this, it would be a quite do-able task to assign new frame values to moves and have them loaded into system memory before every match as if they were the original frame numbers.

As to whether or not they would consider DOING this...
 
harlekein said:
I have been noticing this in SC 2, but in SC 4 it goes into the extreme. The cast is now so big it seem Namco just has given up in making them all balanced. Not even so much in character strenghts and weaknesses (I'll leave that to the tier discussion) but in movesets.

When you look at Rock or Nightmare their moveset seems so limited. Sure, it's easier to pick up on them and learn how to play. (Even though mastering them is pretty damn hard) But at the same time your combat options are more limited. Now look at Cassandra or Yoshi. They got a move for every situation and a lot of mix ups.

I finally realised today that this is the reason why Astaroth feels handicapped to me. He just doesn't have the full toolbox like some other characters. That doesn't mean he's not viable. It just means you are more limited and thus, more predictable. And of course, you can drive in a nail with a set of pliers if you want to, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be better off with a hammer instead.

And then there's the moves that no one bothers with of course, but I don't really want to get into that either.

I don't know, I think SC would be better if Namco would limit the roster, but ensure that every character is equally equipped with a complete arsenal and has an original fighting style. I don't expect any change on this, it's just something that's been bothering me.
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What? Astroth has plenty of tools to make him compete with top tier characters. The only problems I see with him is his lack of good lows to deal with rollers and his weak close game, I mean tiger knee is amazing but a few others would be nice. :( When I first started using him I pretty much used the same move set over and over, but at this point I think I use close to everything he has throughout a match to keep people guessing. He also probably has the best unblockables in the game next to Ivy.

The only character I feel that is limited in this game is Lizard man. I wouldn't want everyone to be an Ivy or Yoshi and have a billion different things to memorize. And other than some moves from sophie, amy and cervy, i feel the game is very balanced.
 
Regular online patches would destroy the gaming community.. Not recommended. The Soul Arenas would fall apart slowly.

Big Patches (Version A - D etc AE Patch etc.) would definitely be welcome though.
While I agree with Jaxel's points, I think he's speaking with a big scar across his chest that reads (DLC) or something.

On DLC moneywhoring..
Namco Bandai has definitely gone the money route with the DLC, but it only reflects another market, the MMORPG market.. The MMORPG Market and Competitive market are similar, in the sense that both markets thrive on the ability to play the game with other people to extend replay ability.. Thus the option to start selling ingame perks for real life $$$ so that newer players can catch up, and older players can have a fresher "feel" for the game. Has already been accepted by the community. When developers start embracing this concept and start releasing games at like $10 or something, along with a huge array of cosmetic of Tales of Vesperia-ish bonuses... I believe the gaming community in general will grow.. But this is still a "risk" for console game developers, as the capital needed for their games is way higher than buying a license for a translated Korean game.

As for why the game is currently so unbalanced, I agree with the smaller movelists and all, however with the system as it is now, (Step System, Soul Gauge, Repel/Parries) I have to say that we all need to stop getting in over our heads and assuming that we know the system inside out already. At this juncture my local crew are still finding more life in characters like Astaroth, Apprentice and other, previously under-appreciated characters. Hell I'm going back to Kilik due to some new ideas for him, and then I see a Kilik Mirror finals at Crowtournationals that showcase some of my ideas.. Wow at least they aren't letting initial impressions stale!
 
Namco is one of the worst companies at DLC I have seen out there. Just like EA, they put content on the disc at the gates, and make you pay for unlock codes. For instance, Yoda and Vader are both on your game disc, but you'll have to pay to unlock them down the line. Thats not DLC, thats double dipping.

Then if you look at a game like The IDOLM@STER, in order to get the entire game, you'll be paying over $500 for DLC. In order to get the entire game of Ace Combat, you'll be paying $200 for DLC. Yes, I can admit, the DLC for both of these games is purely cosmetic. But now look at what they have done with Tales of Vesperia, where you can pay NOT to play the game. Yep, you can purchase levels and high level weapons through DLC. Why play the loot game when the best weapons have to be purchased?

But dont get me wrong, I like DLC... when its legitamate. DLC for me should be EXPANSION content, not double dipping. These days, you are paying $60 for less than a full game, and then paying another $30 to get the rest of it. Companies like Namco and EA purposely hold back content in order to rip their customers off in the long tail.

However, when DLC is something like Warhawk or Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion... thats what I like. The DLC in those games isn't content that was held back from initial release. Those games were full fledged games when they launched on release. The DLC content in those games were all worked on after the games were released.
 
Jaxel said:
Namco is one of the worst companies at DLC I have seen out there. Just like EA, they put content on the disc at the gates, and make you pay for unlock codes. For instance, Yoda and Vader are both on your game disc, but you'll have to pay to unlock them down the line. Thats not DLC, thats double dipping.

Then if you look at a game like The IDOLM@STER, in order to get the entire game, you'll be paying over $500 for DLC. In order to get the entire game of Ace Combat, you'll be paying $200 for DLC. Yes, I can admit, the DLC for both of these games is purely cosmetic. But now look at what they have done with Tales of Vesperia, where you can pay NOT to play the game. Yep, you can purchase levels and high level weapons through DLC. Why play the loot game when the best weapons have to be purchased?

But dont get me wrong, I like DLC... when its legitamate. DLC for me should be EXPANSION content, not double dipping. These days, you are paying $60 for less than a full game, and then paying another $30 to get the rest of it. Companies like Namco and EA purposely hold back content in order to rip their customers off in the long tail.

However, when DLC is something like Warhawk or Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion... thats what I like. The DLC in those games isn't content that was held back from initial release. Those games were full fledged games when they launched on release. The DLC content in those games were all worked on after the games were released.
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Like I said, compare it side by side with F2P MMORPGs and you will see the lack of difference between the two marketing strategies. F2P MMORPGs have proven that this "Pay later" model works in bringing in a wider audience. The problem with Namco games is that they are still charging $70 for a key product.
If all the costumes were stripped down and removed from Idolmaster/ToV/AC6 etc. Would you pay $10 for it, then pay an additional $5 for all the key costumes? It would bring in more players, and fans of the genre will be able to invest the original amount of money ($70) for the game and get more content than those that pay a smaller amount.
 
Jaxel said:
I just wish VF had more flair, like flaming fists during unblockables, and white flashes during just frames.
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It doesn't need that kind of thing. All it really needs is to be flashier and have a bigger personality than it currently is if it's ever gonna compete with the other 3D beat-em-ups.
 
BlackDragon37 said:
It doesn't need that kind of thing. All it really needs is to be flashier and have a bigger personality than it currently is if it's ever gonna compete with the other 3D beat-em-ups.
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What's the difference between flair and flashiness?

I'm not saying they should have flaming fists, but something to indicate an unblockable and/or a JF.
 
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