WC's Evasiveness (or lack thereof)

R

ruinandchaos85

[08] Mercenary
I've been using WC a lot more often since some of you guys mentioned the mixup opportunities from BT. A lot of people I've been running into don't expect it, and usually I end up behind them at the beginning of the match, usually leading into a BT throw.

I remember Jaxel complaining about WC's sucky evasion in SCIV and how bad it is compared to SCII, but in my experience it that doesn't really seem to be the case. For example, I was playing against KrayzieCD the other day, and actually WC'd around the first hit of Asura, which tracks sidesteps, and ended up behind him. Of course the second and third part still hit me (lol). But that was because Asura is just OP'd. It hits forward and backward.

So I made this thread to discuss WC and it's uses. What it evades, what it doesn't. I want to bring back the notion of an evasive Talim again. What are your thoughts? Is it possible? Anybody else been using WC?
 
I actually love WC stance, and I think it's probably her best stance. Like all moves the key is knowing when to use it. Talim is one of the few characters with a stance that has a built-in quickstep and because of that, things that would work on a lot of other characters Talim can escape.

Take a look in my Counter-Attacks thread. There's a good number of moves and strings listed there that WC can both evade and punish.
 
Wow, it's been awhile since I actually looked at that thread. I actually forgot about it. You've done a lot of work on that. Good job.
 
I do use WC, but not as an evasive option. I use it for its attack options; I would prefer to be able to do those attacks without having to waste the frames going into WC though. More often than not, going into WC is troublesome. You cant hit-confirm and then go into WC; you need to decide whether to do it or not from the start. If the opponent blocks your move that transitions into WC, they take free damage on you.

NeoOutlaw and I have started playing SC2 again... all around, thats just a better game.
 
I know that WC isn't the best transitioning/pressure tool. An opponent who's played Talim alot will know they can hit you out WC transition from 11B. But that's what mixups are for. For example, if an opponent catches on to WC, just use AS A+K. It'll force them to block, and if they keep doing that, you can switch to WC again for Tagga throws or B*B for SG damage.

In any case, I believe WC only truly shines when used as a standalone quick evasive step. Kinda like it was in SC2, just not as reliable, due to the insane tracking some characters have in SCIV (i.e. Mitsurugi). It's better than just blocking, since Talim has horrible punishing options on block. I think implementing this, and other things, into anyone's playstyle would greatly improve it.
 
ruinandchaos85 said:
In any case, I believe WC only truly shines when used as a standalone quick evasive step. Kinda like it was in SC2, just not as reliable, due to the insane tracking some characters have in SCIV (i.e. Mitsurugi). It's better than just blocking, since Talim has horrible punishing options on block. I think implementing this, and other things, into anyone's playstyle would greatly improve it.
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Exactly.

I agree that this is the best time to use it since as you and Jaxel both said, people who know Talim's transitions can and will hit you out of it after blocking the initial move. A lot of times people can fall for pseudo transitions. Using WC after a safe move tends to make people miss. Granted this won't always work since they can retaliate with a horizontal or a throw, but sometimes people don't expect it if it's used separate from transitions.
 
Just wanted to chime in and say that I'm in Jaxel's camp; WC doesn't evade *crap*.

The problem with it is that if you use it anywhere beyond super-close range, she doesn't move enough degrees away from her present position. Standing toe to toe, a WC might make her move 60 degrees off axis, and that's grand. But if you're at Kilik's 4B range and you see him charging up a guard crush 4B, good luck getting a 2B+K~6A+B in there. Despite your sidestep, that 4B is probably gonna hurt.

The same is sadly true against most of Siegfried's B moves, and we all know just how many Siggies there are out there. They're ubiquitous, and you have to be right in his face for WC to consistently avoid his verticals. I don't need WC when I'm right in his face, I have other options. It's when I'm at his attack range, but not within mine, that I need evasive options to dodge and punish with. And it's at this crucial range where WC falls short.
 

2:40 of this video you can see WC evade asta 4 (blocked) > 66K. happens again less than 10 seconds later

I'm sure it's not nearly as versatile as a standard sidestep, but in certain situations it is better. Situations where you are negative frames and in a crouch state for example (like after blocking asta 4) make this a viable option. Most characters cannot evade 66K in that situation.
 
I dunno, I've tested it and you can WC Kilik's 4B/4 clean to both sides. If you WC to Kilik's right (The side the rod is when he does 4B) there's a certain timeframe where it locks you into position if you wait a bit too long, hence the WC being hit out. However, I've not had that happen by WCing to Kilik's left during that move and I've waited as long as I could before getting hit to WC.

Another thing is sometimes if you use a anticipatory WC before a vertical is thrown the vertical will aim at wherever Talim is in the WC animation even if the move doesn't normally have tracking properties (i.e. Kilik's 4B). Maybe that's why you were getting hit.
 
From my experience, WC works just like a normal sidestep. If done too early, you can still be hit by a vertical attack. However, sidestep has the advantage of becoming a SW if you continue holding 2/8, WC doesn't have that option. With a SW, you can still avoid a vertical, even if you start too early, as long as the move doesn't track. However, WC works from disadvantage, and that's not necessarily the case with a sidestep. For example, you can WC the second hit of a BB, however, you can't sidestep it.
 
what the hell is SW? and you can WC second hit of BB? look like gibberish to me

edit: oh, sidewalk. no one says that, and it sucks almost all the time anyway. still gibberish
 
Tiamat said:
what the hell is SW? and you can WC second hit of BB? look like gibberish to me
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I think he was referring to Kilik's BB. You can WC the second hit of BB to his left after blocking the first. You can do the same with some of other slower BBs like Asta's, Rock's, and Vader's. (Though Vader can only be WCed at tip if I remember right.)
 
XD

You've got a point.

Though technically, verticals can hit you during 8WR. Basically, during :(7):,:(3):,:(9):, and :(1): you might as well be standing still. Only :(2): and :(8): evade.

Edit: Dammit, I need to stop posting things I haven't tested as facts. I really should say that's true in my experience. It's late here and I'm not thinking straight.
 
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