Yoshi versus....

Yoshimitsu Web Theater.

Belial said:
RLC B is not guardable on reaction.
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Right for a normal human!
RLC B is i20 (333ms) but there're only 16 visible frames (266ms) so yeah... truly hard to guard on REACTION IN FIGHT.
 
Yoshimitsu Web Theater.

The animation is quite distinct. There's nothing to confuse it with in RLC stance.
Nothing easy though, but not impossible.

Anyway, the right approach to Relic is NOT reacting to RLC K, but RLC B, whether you're able to see it or not.
 
Yoshimitsu Web Theater.

Musashi: I dont really get which part of "not guardable on reaction" is not clear, but when I say its impossible to react to it it means it is impossible. End of story.

Saying irrelevant is irrelevant is relevant.
for example - 2K is not only evadable by RLC B, but even if it hits you're at a disadv against mitsu in BT...
Interrupting stance with 2A... good luck.

There isnt even a point to elaborating, b/c this is not even a theory fighting. All of this is just incorrect info.

Or maybe you wanted to discuss the vs, then you picked the wrong thread. Right now it looks you're giving advice to OyM and Hajime, who are far more knowledgable in this matchup.
 
Yoshimitsu Web Theater.

I don't know how to put it. I'm not trying to give advice as much as I wanted to share some findings.
I don't think you have to be "that" famous to have the right to share your opinion/knowledge with people.
I'm really confused here so I'm not going to respond to your aggressiveness. If you have a problem, PM.

Anyway there was stuff going on about the Mitsu match-up, and I found it interesting. I just wanted to jump in since it's a public forum. I don't know a lot about the match-up, but I do know some stuff about RLC.

And I can be wrong about some stuff. But there's ways to tell it...

About the actual stuff:
Upclose, good luck trying to step 2K post blocked RLC K with RLC B.
At range, yes 2K is not an option and I did mention it.
As far as interrupting the RLC > MST transition with 2A, if you're talking about how MST goes under 2A, well that's not how interruption works. Otherwise, I don't see how it can't be applied.
About RLC B, I guess we have different opinions. Still, you saying it is impossible doesn't make it true.
 
Yoshimitsu Web Theater.

^ He's actually right, there. You don't have to be well known to have a valid opinion, plus just because someone can't see a move doesn't mean no one else can.
 
What keeps RLC B threatening is the fact that Mitsu does not need to use it within a set frame of time, keeping him unpredictable. Unfortunately, I don't have Belial around to test how effective baiting RLC stuff with kG_bG would be. I imagine that would be the only intelligent way to go about dealing with RLC, since Yoshi lacks a blanket answer (at least I haven't found one yet...) that deals with all of Mitsu's options from RLC. It would become a ugly game of Yomi. My 360 isn't working right now, so I can't compare the trade off in damage. Got any input on that Belial? What's your potential damage versus Yoshi on typical relic situations? Assume 214A, 6K2K, or 3B (1K if you want to be ballsy) punish against a blocked RLC A and 4K{B} against a blocked RLC B.

Musashi: Your contribution is appreciated, but it did sound more like a lecture than just providing info. Admittedly, I am pretty familiar with what you've posted but, again, appreciate your post. Although I'm sure your info will be helpful to those who are new or having trouble with the Mitsu matchup. Some of what you're saying is fairly situational and highly dependent on the opponent's play style.

HotNikkelz: That's old school, buddy. Everyone just ducks and then lets go of their pad / stick if they see DGF B coming. Only the inexperienced twitch duck hoping to block DGF K. It just doesn't work like it used to in the early days. I think only ballsy people would try and step a Mitsu in RLC with the threat of RLC A hanging over their head. I don't see anyone stepping that on reaction. 4A+B around it, maybe, but not stepping. You can still catch twitch duckers with slow lows, though. It's a funny thing.
 
I bet there is somebody out there who can block RLC B on reaction...it's probably just really hard when you're under pressure.
 
Musahi: All I can say, test your stuff before posting. I will post detail later

Hajime: yes, baiting is viable strat with youshi, however, so much of a strat. I've been dealing with it for a long time. To me, If I can react to people hitting buttons or animation is just something convinient that doesnt happen a lot in my games. But cancel's are very bad , you get hit with RLC A out of it, and you're also in a risk doing so, b/c you give up ring positioning for dubious opportunity to punish. In our game at some point you went closing in on me after blocking MST 6~RLC and what I did was UB charge. OyM strat is the best, eventually you have no choice but be proactive against stance, thats when it really comes down to players spirit. RLC is manly =)
 
That's why I posted them, I tested it, didn't want to make a fool out of myself in front of Belial the great.
But you know what, I'll test them back tonight when I get back home, just for you :p And I'll specifically take Yoshi against it just to be sure.

HajimeOwari said:
Musashi: Your contribution is appreciated, but it did sound more like a lecture than just providing info. Admittedly, I am pretty familiar with what you've posted but, again, appreciate your post. Although I'm sure your info will be helpful to those who are new or having trouble with the Mitsu matchup. Some of what you're saying is fairly situational and highly dependent on the opponent's play style.
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Thanks, although it was very far from a lecture. Believe me. Please stop interpreting things. We're on the internet, pretty hard to get information through the way you wanted it to be, especially in foreign language, so bear with me.
I knew a guy having even minimum knowledge of the match-up would know some of the stuff I put. But still, I don't know any of you guys (I just saw some vids but not enough to judge), just like you probably don't know me (no vids of me anywhere :p). We can still have a discussion without people getting all heated up over details.

I'll develop later on the rlc stuff.
 
Hajime:
Although I'm sure your info will be helpful to those who are new or having trouble with the Mitsu matchup.
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Can you please indulge me on what in his post specifically would be useful for new players trying to beat stance. b/c I really think this is a huge load of nonsense. but if I'm wrong I'm eager to apologize. Trying to interrupting stance with 2A will result in you get hit a lot, punishing RLC with 2K is an "awesome" solution that sometime wiff, is range dep, deals tiny damage and provide great mixup for opponent on hit, and backdash into interrupt will only work against a few options against opponent who stays still, where most players dash at you in RLC, meaning you risk to get CH with anything, but even worse with RLC K for 80+ dmg on CH.

Now to adress your previous question I totally missed in my previous post.
Yoshi lacks a blanket answer (at least I haven't found one yet...) that deals with all of Mitsu's options from RLC. It would become a ugly game of Yomi. Got any input on that Belial? What's your potential damage versus Yoshi on typical relic situations? Assume 214A, 6K2K, or 3B (1K if you want to be ballsy) punish against a blocked RLC A and 4K{B} against a blocked RLC B.
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No character has a blanket answer. Stance might be not so great on paper, but it is in real game. For same reason its impossible to do any theory fighting vs stance. There are few things I am certain of, and I can give you this advice.
1) RLC B is totally, absolutely, ultimately impossible to see on reaction.
2) Never duck vs RLC. even if you guard RLC K with Yoshi you have no way to mix up effectively.
3) If you ducked, and blocked RLC K, then do FC 2B or a throw.
4) Never turtle against stance unless you are 200% sure your opponent is going to throw an unsafe now.
5) Try to be as agressive against RLC as possible, to force your opponent into doing unsafes.
6) Being under pressure makes people predictable. Dont try to outguess your opponent when he is pressuring you in stance. Rather have 1 option prepared, and use it to force an outcome you desire.
7) Learn from OyM.
 
HajimeOwari said:
HotNikkelz: That's old school, buddy. Everyone just ducks and then lets go of their pad / stick if they see DGF B coming. Only the inexperienced twitch duck hoping to block DGF K. It just doesn't work like it used to in the early days. I think only ballsy people would try and step a Mitsu in RLC with the threat of RLC A hanging over their head. I don't see anyone stepping that on reaction. 4A+B around it, maybe, but not stepping. You can still catch twitch duckers with slow lows, though. It's a funny thing.
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Belial...
Were you referring to my post as irrelevant and useless? I want to be sure

Hajime...
Old school works, although I'm not quite sure i understand your point about seeing DGF B coming. I expect them to see it. As long as they block it i'm happy with that. It's been my experience personally, and from watching vids that hardly ANYONE EVER steps DGF B...or does it consistently. Theoreteically speaking they can do it of course but i've never seen it done, they always guard. I doubt anyone will dispute this
I step vs RLC, but you need to know the range at which to step. The weakness lies within the poor range of the first part of RLC A, this is key. I cannot explain this on paper any better...it all depends on where he uses it. The good thing about this is that step G is not detrimental as there's no counter except RLC A (due to it's insane speed), and that must be done up close or else the Mitsu gambles the high part.
 
Musashi: I wasn't misinterpreting it. I noticed that you live in France and understand the issue. I have many foreign friends and my wife is Japanese, so I understand that it's difficult to convey the tone you're looking for when speaking in another language. So, no worries. I'm not here to judge. Just letting you know that's how your post came across.

Belial: I was referring to how max range RLC[K] on block can't be punished and how it is possible to bait Mitsu's into doing something from RLC. Not all Mitsu, but some of them. You've clearly put as much time into Mitsu as I have into Yoshi, so the "obvious" counters don't work on you anymore. Anyways, I'm not about to tear apart the guy's post since you've already done it and we all have to keep in mind that there's a language barrier here. Not everyone can convey tone well in a foreign language, much less here on the interwebz. ^_^

Yeah. Your breakdown of RLC makes sense. I was asking something else, but I'll go into more detail with you on that another time when I get my 360 back. I definitely agree with being more proactive. Besides that, without going into detail, I would likely respond quite differently than OYM. We have very different move sets we draw upon.

Unfortunately we lack a Belial-llike Mitsu here, so trying to apply said tactics is meaningless. So, hopefully I'll have to a chance to play you again in the future. Unfortunately, your anti-Yoshi experience far outweighs my anti-Mitsu experience, so you'll have the advantage. Regardless, you know I can bring a lot to a match if we ever get a chance to play again. =)

HotNikkelz: Some of these NorCal players are able to step DGF B and DGF K. In my neck of the woods, DGF is not a stance one wants to whore out. But we've had this discussion before. You want to CF and I don't. People are way too step happy (to good effect) and 90% of the good GB moves are linear as hell. And Yoshi lacks fast, seriously threatening anti-step attacks. Sadly, throwing is his best anti-step. Many of the moves people think are anti-step moves can be stepped. Of course, that requires the opponent to prove they can do it...but that's different topic. But, as I've said before, that's my opinion and going for the CF doesn't suit my play style. You and OYM think more along the same lines.
 
I wonder if Kilik's Asura can handle RLC. The only wildcard I see is the RLC aGI, but I imagine it would still limit RLC pretty well.
 
HajimeOwari said:
HotNikkelz: Some of these NorCal players are able to step DGF B and DGF K. In my neck of the woods, DGF is not a stance one wants to whore out. But we've had this discussion before. You want to CF and I don't. People are way too step happy (to good effect) and 90% of the good GB moves are linear as hell. And Yoshi lacks fast, seriously threatening anti-step attacks. Sadly, throwing is his best anti-step. Many of the moves people think are anti-step moves can be stepped. Of course, that requires the opponent to prove they can do it...but that's different topic. But, as I've said before, that's my opinion and going for the CF doesn't suit my play style. You and OYM think more along the same lines.
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I see, but don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that the won't step...i'm saying it's more than likely they will block. Take for example those recent vids, of Keev vs DTN's Yoshi and you see most of the time, he attempts to block than step. I think reflexively it's normal to do so. IMO and experience I find it's hard to react to well placed DGF with step. From all the vids of Cali i see, i hardly see it being stepped to...which was my point basically. Don't picture it as going for CF heh, picture it more like 'good thing they blocked it rather than step' if the CF opportunity comes then it comes, if not whatever. The bs is good, and they're forced crouch that's all that matters.
I agrees Yoshi's biggest weakness is he lacks damaging antistep :/ oh well, i do whore throws though :D
 
kk, Hajime asked me to make a breakdown so here it is
Pros/cons - self expl
risk/rew - self expl
Things to watch out/anticipate are things that may may happen aside from being hit, when you utilize that tactic
vs RLC

* 214A
Pros:
+ Best used against defencive stance play, ex - after blocking something, where your opponent is likely to throw RLC A, 2 or aGI.
+ Good solution to RLC A+B charges.
+ Can only be safely countered by outranging it with RLC B or active responce.

Cons:
- Situational, Needs to be set up i.e. particular defencive patterns must be forced first.
- Slow, incorrect range or pattern may result in devastating CH with RLC K or just about anything.

Risk/reward: high/med
Things to watch out: Failed RLC K CH confirm (range dep often).

* a~G / Run up / baiting punishment
+ Prevents opponent from closing in, forcing a defencive solution
+ Allows to utilize damaging punishment via anticipation.

- Risk of getting hit while moving/cancels
- Puts you into horrible position if opponent doesnt take the bait.

Risk/Reward: High/High
Things to watch out.anticipate: RLC A or B for punishment. RLC K hit, UB charges.

Step~[G] or Step-atack
Pros:
+ Possibility to punish RLC K/B with 3B

Cons:
- Cant hit detect without allowing opponent RLC reverse mixup.
- free RLC A, Step in may/will result in devastating CH. Generally lose to step in.

Risk/reward: High/Low
Things to watch out: UB charges

* Interrupting with throw/mid
Pros:
+ nets a back throw most of the time
+ Good to use when mitsu is using defencive mix up
+ Relatively decent against mitsu offence while dashing in
+ Forces an active responce from mitsu

Cons:
- Hardly interrupts anything
- Short range

Risk/Reward: High/Med
Things to watch out: None

* Backdash -> atack/guard
Pros/Cons - about same as with 214A.
Risk Reward: Low/Low
Things to watch out: everything.
 
HotNikkelz: But that's what it is. It's going for a CF. You're not even trying to do damage anymore. Yes, they'll block it, but the smart ones won't get hit by anything you do after it. And unlike Mitsu, DGF doesn't have an ultra-fast RLC A-like option that interrupts the overeager, so you can't really whore out DGF. And unlike Voldo, you're not going to break them in 6 doing 3BB. So, my question is: Why spend time trying to CF when you could be going for actual damage?

You won't see people stepping it in NorCal vids because I won't whore it out to the point they know it's coming. Same can be said of Manta 3BB. I know the consequences of overusing a gimmick and I refuse to try for a CF. But if they're blinking, I know what my best options are to break them. Not that it matters, because most people who have a blinking gauge tend to panic and play stupid anyways. Just my take on it. ^_^

Belial: hah...damnit Belial. I was thinking more along the lines of just quantifying the pros/cons of RLC versus Yoshi. i.e. If you Relic A, the Mitsu players gets ~55 damage (made up number), but Yoshi will in turn get 6K2K damage. So forth, so on. Still..that works. Hah! My 360 is repaired and coming home, so I'll get to it when I get it back.
 
Hajime: well. its sorta hard b/c there are way too many factors on that stuff.
Also I dont have a console so I dont really remember all the number. Try filling that one yourself as you see fit

#### RLC B / RLC A / RLC K / dRLC B / dRLC A / dRLC K / bd / RLC aGI , RLC 2, B+K(MST)
214A
A_B+G
FC 2B
4K
MCF
bd Atk
ST G (I usually dont factor)
CR G (I usually dont factor)

basically you want to do math for 3 situations MST 6 blk, RLC K hit and RLC K blck.
everything else happens much more rare.

As to how that stuff works refer to last part of this post . Thing I'm using right now is part about laplas criteria (summing up the lines/colums to come up with the best answer), original theory (giving percentage by solving equations) are better, but since SC3 math geeks gave up on the game so noone can do it now ^_^
 
Hi there.

I've been playing vs Yoshimitsu with Amy.
At first I thought it was a 5-5 matchup.

But this feeling has changed.
I've played vs several Yoshi users : DTN, Masato, Furzy ...

- Yoshimitsu can't punish properly 2B+K. This is awful for Yoshi
- Amy has more range/speed with 33B so she can actually keep Yoshi away until he gets launched. Keeping away means no iMCF stuff.
- Amy can punish 33B / 33B B+K
- Step~33B sometimes goes under horizontals
- Amy can punish FC3K for 54dmg+wakeup
- Yoshi has nearly no good TC stuff to stop the 6BB poking.

Sure, Yoshi's base damage is higher (combos, throws), but Amy can do just as well with launch/throw + wakeup.
Yoshi has a better ring out game but Amy is pretty strong too, and good spacing will prevent most ring out setups too.

What do you think ?
I feels to me more like Amy-Yoshi 6-4 than 5-5.

Warning : this is just a feeling I got from recent matches.
Maybe Yoshi has stuff I didn't think about and so on, and these users just didn't take advantage of them.
 
tresto said:
- Yoshimitsu can't punish properly 2B+K. This is awful for Yoshi
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If you mean he can't do lots of damage, then you're right. That's a weakness. He still gets some minor crap like FC 1KKK, FC B, etc.

- Amy has more range/speed with 33B so she can actually keep Yoshi away until he gets launched. Keeping away means no iMCF stuff.
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Amy's 33B can be stepped and isn't a spammable solution to keeping Yoshi out. If that isn't what you meant, you should be more specific.

- Amy can punish 33B / 33B B+K
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Almost everyone can punish 33B_33B B+K, but the opponent has to know if the Yoshi player is going to do the B+K or not. IMO, a smart Yoshi will vary this if he's getting punished. Amy's punishment isn't terribly threatening here either.

- Step~33B sometimes goes under horizontals
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Considering Yoshi's horizontals / step killers are already pretty weak already (except maybe 3K), this isn't some big exploit against Yoshi. Besides, step~33B is strong against many characters.

- Amy can punish FC3K for 54dmg+wakeup
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Yoshi's game doesn't revolve around FC 3K and just about everyone can punish Yoshi's FC 3K. Pointing out this weakness is like pointing out that everyone can punish Cervy's WS A for 50+ damage. Good Yoshi players will use FC 3K intelligently and sparingly, imho.

- Yoshi has nearly no good TC stuff to stop the 6BB poking.
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Considering 6BB is pretty fast, I'm guessing you mean something that TCs that the opponent does on anticipation? 214A fits in nicely, then.
 
Yes I agree with Hajime for the most part. I'd also like to point out that 214A is very good in this matchup.
Anohter thing I want to not is that mostly people overestimate yoshi RO game, yoshi can RO far away, but Amy's RO game is better.
 
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