Zas Matchups

mikosu

mikosu

Goderator of pink hearts
Zas-specific thread for the matchup project. Let's discuss! (Current numbers are from the project thread.)

VS
Algol - 3:7
Amy -
Asta -
Cass -
Cervy -
Vader -
Hilde - 4:6
Ivy -
Kilik - 4:6
Lizzy -
Maxi -
Mitsu -
Nighty - 4:6
Raph - 4:6
Rock -
Mi-Na -
Setsu - 4:6
Sieg -
Sophi -
Taki -
Talim -
App -
Voldo -
X - 5:5
Yoda -
Yoshi -
Yun -
 
no Zas matchup thread either eh? poor guy gets no love. at least there are some really strong zas players, but it's only really Kura and Omega as far as I know. The problem is that those are the best players in their respective countries anyway, so its hard to figure out rankings from them.

We have played Zas in my area for a while in SC4 (admittedly not very long, but zas is a rather simple character) and have a few matchups but not many which we felt we'd add to the chart. so far:
vs NM: 4-6
vs Raph: 4-6
vs Algol: 3-7

these characters beat zas at zoning and keepout, largely negating one of his better attributes. none of these characters have to move in on Zas because they have longer range low pokes and better ranged moves in general. they also do more damage on grabs etc.
 
I agree that Algol and Raph are poor matchups for Zas, but I'd disagree with NM. 4B+K is better at keepout than anything NM has, Zas's jumping moves are good enough/fast enough to mess with NMs 1[A]_1[a]K mixups, and his reverse RO game is nearly as scary as NM's forward RO game. I think it's closer to 5:5 or even 6:4.
 
Alright, don't everybody post at once now. :/

Anyway, I probably am not the person who should be debating this, but I know quite a bit about Zas and maybe I can give some points to start off.

vs. Kilik - 4:6
-
-Kilik has better tools from just about every range.
-Zas' keep-out game is not effective since Kilik performs better than him at long range.
-Asura limits Zas' options when he gets inside, or after pulls, to basic pokes and makes his weak throw game risky.
-Zas can't match the damage Kilik can put up, especially on NH.
-Kilik has much better whiff punishment. Zas' strongest option when close is 3B4, but 4A+B followup tends to whiff on Kilik. 6BA works great as whiff punisher, but Kilik gets better damage off of 22B and 4A+B.
-Zas is fairly vertical and susceptible to evasive moves like 1B, 4A, and 33A.
-Zas' 4A and 44A can be punished hard by Kilik's WSB and FC3B if ducked.

+
+Zas can punish things like 1B and 1_3A+B well (he can punish 1B from max range).
+Zas' unsafeness in nullified some by Kilik not having great punishers.
+6BA and WSK give good options on hit for Zas because BT Asura doesn't have an aGI (still risky to throw though).
+2B4 nullifies ALL of Kilik's FC options after 2K on NH at close range, and it beats many options after things like 1A.
+Zas' 4A+B nullifies all of Kilik's OTG A+B options.

The damage gap and Zas' limited movelist makes this an uphill battle for him. I might add some more later.
 
LiesIncorporated said:
I agree that Algol and Raph are poor matchups for Zas, but I'd disagree with NM. 4B+K is better at keepout than anything NM has, Zas's jumping moves are good enough/fast enough to mess with NMs 1[A]_1[a]K mixups, and his reverse RO game is nearly as scary as NM's forward RO game. I think it's closer to 5:5 or even 6:4.
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The thing is nightmare can fight this match outside the 4B+K range and still have good moves at his disposal like agA. Zas doesn't have good ranged TCs I'm pretty sure, unless he feels like committing to a FC 3B. 11B is way longer range than any of Zas's lows, and nightmare's long range mids are basically the same speed as zas's but with way higher damage output. Up close, zas has some priority thanks to his 2A, but that's about it.

also, what jumping moves could you possibly be thinking of? I don't see why nightmare can't just 1ak them all.

nightmare wins on:
zoning
throw damage, throw range, and throw oki
damage on mid launchers
RO versatility
okizeme
whiff punishing

zas wins on:
close range speed
CF ability
 
Sets 7/3

Every low or ducked throw is easily umbrella punishable, makes him have a hard time, finding a way to deal damage safely. She can vs most characters BUT, it's worse for him cuz he gets so little damage or opportunity for landing throws and lows.

If she forced a whiff her damage is massive for her (zas's linearity makes this easier)

She gets in on him easily

Her speed, A+B coupled with 4A, 22A, 214 etc makes Zas gamble not in his favor in his mixups even when he hits, cuz her CH damage is massive

33B has uber range and outspeeds most of Zas stuff at that range.

Her 214 and 236 zoning makes him more wary of using high horizontals to cut step. WS B is fast enough to CH his horis anyway. Makes 6B+K a bit riskier too.

She is setsuka and does everything better than him.
 
Tiamat said:
The thing is nightmare can fight this match outside the 4B+K range and still have good moves at his disposal like agA. Zas doesn't have good ranged TCs I'm pretty sure, unless he feels like committing to a FC 3B. 11B is way longer range than any of Zas's lows, and nightmare's long range mids are basically the same speed as zas's but with way higher damage output. Up close, zas has some priority thanks to his 2A, but that's about it.

also, what jumping moves could you possibly be thinking of? I don't see why nightmare can't just 1ak them all.
Click to expand...

All Zas needs to do to close in is force a blocked 4A_WS A4_2B4_6kB, so it's not really that bad. Plus, for what it's worth, Zas's 1A (at tip range, without B) has got longer range than NM 11B. His best ranged TC is still 6BA, which has a huge tech crouch but doesn't cover that much distance.

The kick out of 9K comes out pretty quickly. It's a little like Hilde's or Yoshi's in that it'll beat the K cancel unless NM anticipates it. If Zas outguesses 1A (or any low), his 9B gives excellent advantage on hit.
 
are any of those pull in moves reasonable block recovery? What I'm asking is, even if they are safe, are they safe enough that Zas can avoid eating a good mixup? I'm pretty sure 4A and 2B4 are not.

1A is far easier to see than NM's 11B. even if you hardly do 1A the animation is so obvious that anyone who's played vs zas before will probably still see it anyway. it's about as hard to see as nightmare's 1A (probably even easier to see).

LiesIncorporated said:
The kick out of 9K comes out pretty quickly. It's a little like Hilde's or Yoshi's in that it'll beat the K cancel unless NM anticipates it.
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This is not any advantage at all. Zas has very average jump moves, almost everyone has similarly fast jump moves. More importantly though, NM 1aK is not used on reaction to jump attacks anyway, so saying it will only lose when NM anticipates jump attack is obvious. The risk vs reward is a lot better for nightmare.
 
They're all -4ish. 2A after that beats anything really damaging, so NM is pretty much left with 66K, 1K and 3K to keep Zas honest after that. It's not great, but if Zas wants to get close, he can do so pretty easily.

As jump moves go, Zas's are very good. The K is fast and KDs, and the B gives big advantage on hit. Fast/rewarding jump attacks make 1[A] riskier. It's relevant.
 
Zas can also punish NM well with WS B or WS K when he ducks things like GS A, GS KK, agA, 6K, NSS K etc. If the second hit of GS KK is ducked at the edge of the ring, 44B4 = ringout (yes, I know this is very situational and rare.) Zas has a great interrupter in 4B which scores a CH just for NM being in GS. Thats 58 damage + great followups. 6B+K on block doesn't whiff against NM like it seems to on so many other characters :/

Nightmare's 11B is pretty easily stepped to it's left, and if its blocked, Zas gets a free 2B4 from most ranges to pull NM inside. Zas' 1A on the other hand tracks 100% and can be mixed with 1AB for jumpers (may have been its true intention as nobody is ever really hit by 1A in open space). 1AB is not easily punished by NM and at max range, blocked 1AB doesn't even give NM a proper FC mixup because he is out of WSB and throw range.

33B is a good tool to use from range once an a while and its only -5; I believe the pull is -10. iWSA/iWSA4 is also useful as it is very fast for it's range, has extreme range, gives great advantage, tracks to both sides, breaks the SG in 15, and both versions are safe vs NM. So Zas does have a few options at that range, but the idea is to bring NM inside anyway.

What tools does NM have to deal with Zas when Zas has advantage in his face? 6K? 1K? Only to keep him honest really. I get that NM has overall better damage output, but I could actually see this being 6:4 for Zas. It's at least 5:5 IMO.
 
omg Qshimitsu you live in nova and I have never played you. we should DECIDE THE DESTINY when I get back in a couple months! XD

I will look at some zas stuff again this weekend, it has been a long time.
 
Tiamat said:
omg Qshimitsu you live in nova and I have never played you. we should DECIDE THE DESTINY when I get back in a couple months! XD

I will look at some zas stuff again this weekend, it has been a long time.
Click to expand...

Yeah, we can do that. Although that might illustrate a gap in player skill as you have much more experience than I do.
 
Those matches better get recorded! Debate on gents.

LiesIncorporated: Are you an experienced tourney player? Seen you post a few good things.
 
Zas can shut down NM's grim step, but nothing at mid range is a match for Nightys 33B. Closes range, covers his side, tracks AND techs?

I bet its safe too.
 
almost everyone can shut down GS, after blocking moves that go into it. I'm not sure what zas's best options are to punish. generally you do 2A and whatever other TC moves youve got. 6BA should work sometimes but should be beatable by GS A. unless you have something that does good damage that consistently punishes say, WR B and 33B no matter what, being able to beat GS isn't really an advantage, as it's the norm

33B if he doesn't GS he's pretty far away so I'm not sure what zas would do. I'm gonna guess that anything long range enough for zas to punish 33B loses to 33B6 GS A

If you wanna look for matchups where Zas has advantage, you're probably best off looking into matchups vs
yoda (this should be cake thanks to 4B+K)
maxi/talim/taki(?) (should be able to keep them out pretty well)

that's my theory anyway
 
I feel Nightmare is within Zass comfort zone. That is if the Zass player doesn't spam his highs.
Nightmare has all the power...but Zass has the speed and the mindgames in his favor.
This match-up should be 5:5 IMO.

Zass vs Kilik should be 3:7
 
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