Hate Speech: Extra Extra Credits

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Like many of you heroes out there, I spent several hours last Friday watching the French play Soul Calibur 5. As the stream ended, I found myself reflecting on two major issues: first, a suffocating, heady mix of shame and loathing at having lost a beautiful day, and second, the traits that make games compelling for spectators.

In fairness, Friday's exhibition wasn't my first rodeo; I've waved a fond farewell to countless hours of my life as I watched them spiral away down the match video/tourney stream toilet, which makes sense within the context of Soul Calibur matches because I'm personally invested in the game. Then again, I've also found myself watching intently as people I don't know play games I've never touched, and I've loved every second of it. So what gives? How does a game become "good tv?"

It's a question of design. The right combination of aesthetics and mechanics can make a game almost as fun to watch as it is to play.

A recent episode of Extra Credits tackled this very issue, among others, in an attempt to break down the challenges facing competitive gaming as "sport." It's worth a watch, but for those of you without the time and inclination to do so, I'll summarize: one of the central points argued in the video is that game designers must take spectatorship into account if a game is to become competitively popular.

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Curling has finally found the secret to good spectatorship, it seems.

The team behind Soul Calibur 5 is proving itself to be impressively savvy in this regard. The series has always had lush visuals and unique character design, but the addition of cinematic super moves--stolen ever-so-blatantly from Street Fighter 4--takes this visual appeal and gives it a huge injection of drama. The brief pause in the action combines with the violently zooming camera shifting to an exotic angle to let us know that things are about to get nasty. Moreover, that pause also gives us a split second of simply not knowing what will happen. Ivy's started up her CE --did Mitsurugi duck in time or is he about to take an unscheduled flight? All of this creates tension and excitement while providing a road map of sorts, unambiguously indicating to the viewer that he's witnessing a critical moment in the match.

SC5 has other elements which are good for spectators, too. Attacks look like they hurt, armor and clothing can be damaged, certain walls change dynamically by breaking or falling when a combatant is knocked into them, and players' health bars change color as their life approaches zero. These are subtle things, but together they operate along the same lines as the cinematic CEs to create a rich, tension-filled viewing experience that doesn't require expert-level knowledge to appreciate.

Binary Busting

Brace yourselves, kids--we're about to get heavy.

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Does this picture really require explanation?

Extra Credits didn't stop at pointing out that designers need to take spectators into account. It goes a step further, outright stating that games should be designed for spectators instead of the hardcore player. There's an implicit argument in that sentiment, namely that system depth is inherently incompatible with spectator-oriented design. The view seems widely enough embraced, but it also strikes me as flawed. As we've seen, spectator-friendly elements can be either visual or part of a game's mechanics. The purely visual should have no real bearing on the depth of the game involved, while changes to a game's mechanics can serve to either increase or decrease depth. SC5's cinematic CEs once again provide an excellent example. They are special, situational tactics to which one gains access through appropriate management of the new meter mechanic. They're clearly styled with viewers in mind, but they just as clearly add extra factors to negotiate, thus deepening the gameplay experience.

Conversely, these design elements can add drama while detracting from a game's competitive balance. Take, for example, the dreaded "comeback mechanic." While not as egregious as Tekken 6's "Rage Mode", SC5's practice of giving a player with meter when he is one round away from losing is certainly problematic. Comeback mechanics absolutely add to a match's dramatic tension, but at the cost of essentially rewarding someone for taking an ass-beating, which undermines a game's consistency.

Even so, both the good and bad examples above affect the game's depth independently of how they affect how enjoyable it is to watch. Design teams have limited resources, so it's possible that time spent polishing a game for viewership might detract from time that could be spent deepening the system, but in that sense there's also a resource conflict between system depth and, say, sound design. At the end of the day it seems entirely possible to design a fighting game that is both rewarding to play and entertaining to watch, and I observe that Namco is attempting to do just that with Soul Calibur 5.

TMWGZ.png
Another of life's most important design decisions; a classic one.

Homework:
Go watch some of the archived videos from France's exhibition tournament (or all of 'em, why the hell not?) and think about what makes a game enjoyable to watch, then come tell me what you think. Also, use the comments to weigh in on whether you think games can be spectator-friendly while also retaining their depth. Was Extra Credits right? If so, who should game companies be designing for?
 
I think Jaxel’s boredom was due to players playing to win since they were playing the SC5 build in a tournament format, and not so much trying out new things and finding what’s pleasing to the eye. I’m sure there will be a lot more to see once the game is further in development, but so far I love what I see.

Since watching the first gameplay footage from TGS, I have been hooked. The game looks very flashy and very fun to play. And if you didn’t notice, over 500 people were watching the stream on Friday for just Soulcalibur which is a very good thing. I’m excited to see what else is in store as the game gets later into development.

In terms of designing fighting games, you have to find that happy medium which pleases all crowds since skewing the design of a game towards one crowd could alienate the other. Making a game too spectator friendly could ruin how it plays competitively; making a game too hardcore could make it boring to the spectator. Street Fighter is able to be spectator friendly while still containing the depth that the hardcore crowd is looking for.

To KingAce’s points, how many people are really confused by meter besides yourself? What was confusing to people were the orbs in SC4. People can easily understand what a meter does, and why I hope the guard break mechanic in SC5 is shown with a meter instead of a flashing life bar so people can easily understand how far they are away from having their guard broken.

The affects that are now in the game are a part of what makes SC5 not boring to watch. A lot of people already have difficulty in watching a 3D fighter being played because not only do they not know what’s going on, but it’s boring to watch. On top of that, the games aren’t accessible to most people so that they could know what’s going on.

The changes to SC5 are going to make it easier to follow what’s going on and enjoyable to watch by the spectator. And if you get people to know who the players are by doing write ups, interviews, videos, etc. so that people can develop a rooting interest, they'll be more inclined to watch.
 
I don't think games necessarily have to sacrifice depth in order to be more spectator-friendly. In fact, I think this is one area in which fighting games have an inherent advantage over RTSes, FPSes and all those garbage DotA clones. For starters, all the action is contained on a single screen. There is no need to cut away mid-game to see what other players are doing, and this also puts less stress on commentators.

The action onscreen is also less ambiguous. For the most part, we can see all of the characters and everything that's going on around them, as opposed to just a first-person view with a gun sticking out in front of the player or a bunch of units moving around with who-the-hell-knows-what-else going on offscreen.

And as Hates already pointed out, flashy mechanics such as supers already fulfill the purpose of making fighting games more fun to watch while also adding layers of depth. Combos can also play a role here, but they do have to be carefully implemented.

Coming from someone who actually isn't opposed to the very idea of comeback mechanics, they do often make a game dull for me. The unlikelihood of a comeback is precisely what makes them exciting in the first place. If I expect a comeback, something is wrong. Obviously some games are more at fault for this than others, but I think it's kinda sad that we live in an era where some developers have to be reminded that comebacks are something that really should be earned.
 
I love the way the game is looking so far. The only problems I saw, were some pretty obvious ones. The characters kept using the same moves, and we all faced someone like that in our days. When a character gets hit, they make a loud, irritating yell. And I didn't see a lot of changes in Tira, Voldo, and Seigfried. But, other than that, I can't wait to play with Maxi already.
 
Well done again my friend, i love the game, but common like soakrates said comebacks should be earned and common what the hell, my reward for breaking a throw is to lose power -__-, there is still a lot to be done and change so lets wait and see, so far so good.
 
A bit off-topic but concerning the gameplay on the stream, please remember this :

1) We were playing the game for the first time. Buffer are not the same, GI are not done the same way, step either, etc etc.

2) A lot of moves are not done the same way as before (ex Asta 1B in SC4 is 2B+K in SC5) Quite confusing.

3) No buttons mapping possible. Stick players had to play in a Tekken-like configuration, very confusing at first. Pad players couldnt map anything too. Only RT was giving A+B+K.
 
The meter you get isn't really a comeback since you still need to win two rounds in most cases, and in other cases you'll already have 200% meter. Plus it's not changing how you would play during a round like an ultra combo or rage would. You'll know what to expect at the beginning of a round.

Also, regular moves do a lot more damage than the sliver of life that you lose for breaking a throw, especially when you have options to avoid being thrown. You'll be fine.
 
There is only so much the developers can do to make a game interesting. It doesn't matter how many cool effects they are using if the player is only using 5 moves. If the player is playing to Win, it'll be boring. If the player knows what level his opponent is at, he can then "Bring It" to a level that can be entertaining to the spectators. If you don't want to risk losing, there are so many risks (flashiness) a player can get away with.

Its the difference between blocking, GIing, Evading, or Auto-Gi'ing. One option is more safe than the other, while another option offers rewards in return for the risk.

Also, even if whats on screen seems confusing, good commentators are supposed to bring the game into perspective both for the new casual player, and the hardcore player. Knowledge of game mechanics, characters mechanics, and the people playing help make a good matches that much more interesting.

IMO They could have done a lot more to test for the SCV event, but there was about 40 Ppl waiting to play, so not much you can really do except try to win and stay on the machine.
 
Once again Hates, you hit the nail on the head and I'm in agreement. Loved every second of the SCV play, even parts that were considered boring by some due to the unreasonably tight play. But even during those parts I was transfixed thinking about the new properties and possible strategic implications of each move and movement.

As far as being spectator-friendly, SCV is the most beautiful 3D FG I've ever seen, and I love every bit of the flash and flair. Your comments about focal points and visual cues make me think that SCV really was designed with spectators in mind as well as the players.

I'm reminded of EVO when they announced that they hoped EVO would pick it up as a tournament game. It appears SCV was designed as an esport, and it could become the next big thing, as long as it's heavily advertised and it isn't overshadowed by DOA5 or even VF5:FS.

Well done again my friend, i love the game, but common like soakrates said comebacks should be earned and common what the hell, my reward for breaking a throw is to lose power -__-, there is still a lot to be done and change so lets wait and see, so far so good.

I can't really consider that a comeback mechanic. Keep in mind that if you're down two rounds, get the meter boost, and use it mount a 2-round comeback, THEY get a free meter at that point too. Both players get full and equal use of it, unlike X-factor or Ultras which may add a one-sided advantage due to the ridiculous buff in the case of X-factor and the fact that round-ending removes the other player's ultra meter, where they may have ate their comeback boost and now they can't send it back at them.

As far as throw breaks doing damage... keep in mind it's just a sliver of health. It's just right for landing a throw attempt which already requires a correct guess. The way it is now, the thrower has a big disadvantage. They must guess right twice in order to do any damage, and the defender only has to guess right once. Also, the thrower has to close distance if players are spacing properly so really, they have to guess that an attack isn't coming before they can enter into that guessing game.

Say the thrower manages to get in. Defender can either duck while reacting to block slow lows and mids, or stand and throw break. Thrower can either throw or do an unreactable mid. Throw's expected damage on successful attempt will be close to the average of the throws divided by two, usually around 30 up to 45 damage. A safe unreactable mid will generally be somewhere between 30 and 65, matchup specific on safety and damage. Unsafe, again, matchup specific, 55 to 80. So the mixup is 30-45/30-65 against good punishers, else it's 30-45/55-80.

Assuming the defender is rooted in place, the minimal defense, (but not long enough to get side-grabbed,) the reverse mixup can be as strong as their duck-throw-punish (not that high) and their mid punish. Against certain characters, it's just not in the attacker's favor to mix up on them. Sophie, for example, can easily duck punish with FC1B8BAK (76) if the player is deliberate about the throw guess, and can punish hard enough to deter use of unsafe mids. Tech crouches in general are really good, so often it's something like 30-75/0.

This doesn't take into account more advanced offense and defense and the fact that the defender first has to get in... but the offense should be favored a bit more.
 
I think Jaxel’s boredom was due to players playing to win since they were playing the SC5 build in a tournament format, and not so much trying out new things and finding what’s pleasing to the eye. I’m sure there will be a lot more to see once the game is further in development, but so far I love what I see.

Since watching the first gameplay footage from TGS, I have been hooked. The game looks very flashy and very fun to play. And if you didn’t notice, over 500 people were watching the stream on Friday for just Soulcalibur which is a very good thing. I’m excited to see what else is in store as the game gets later into development.

In terms of designing fighting games, you have to find that happy medium which pleases all crowds since skewing the design of a game towards one crowd could alienate the other. Making a game too spectator friendly could ruin how it plays competitively; making a game too hardcore could make it boring to the spectator. Street Fighter is able to be spectator friendly while still containing the depth that the hardcore crowd is looking for.

To KingAce’s points, how many people are really confused by meter besides yourself? What was confusing to people were the orbs in SC4. People can easily understand what a meter does, and why I hope the guard break mechanic in SC5 is shown with a meter instead of a flashing life bar so people can easily understand how far they are away from having their guard broken.

The affects that are now in the game are a part of what makes SC5 not boring to watch. A lot of people already have difficulty in watching a 3D fighter being played because not only do they not know what’s going on, but it’s boring to watch. On top of that, the games aren’t accessible to most people so that they could know what’s going on.

The changes to SC5 are going to make it easier to follow what’s going on and enjoyable to watch by the spectator. And if you get people to know who the players are by doing write ups, interviews, videos, etc. so that people can develop a rooting interest, they'll be more inclined to watch.
You know what hates is referring to?
I don't think you do....this thread right here
http://8wayrun.com/threads/extra-credits-presents-pro-gaming.8343/
on penny arcade's http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/pro-gaming

It talks about why professional gaming hasn't really caught on in the west.

Let's be clear here, when I speak of understand meters, I am speaking from an audience standpoint. For FGs to reach the level of other competitive video games, there has to be less confusion for the spectator...so that any average joe can tune into a stream and have a clear understanding of what's going on.

Because when you say people...you're referring to the FG community. And that's a very small niche group that is divided into 3d and 2d. Despite the views, In the grand scheme of things it's actually a very niche group. And the numbers don't lie 3d Fgs aren't boring, in NA you're all blinded by the success of SF4.

The flashing effects currently in SC5 don't sell it. It's the actually the cool animations. The flashing effects are pretty much just distracting. Even in SF4 it isn't the effects but the actual cool Ultra and super animations. Asta's CE, the yellow glow for BE, the yellow and red flashes for SG damage, the new weapon and throw effects, are there for intuitive reasons...in identifying each mechanic. However, compared to past games, they're heavily emphasized, to the point of distracting from the actual game play.

I can watch hours of any previous SC game no problem, SCv eventually starts hurting my eyes.

Even though I enjoyed SCV's gameplay, because it met some of the standards I wanted. It's faster, has safer frames, bigger damage, I was disappointed with a number of things.

RingOuts are heavily nerfed. There no cool cancels, WL, or wall jumps. Throws are overly emphasized(constant grabing is very very boring). No decent WR moves to punish throws. Because of the small moveset the game play looked too easy and lacking in depth. Since everyone was constantly rushing down, instead of attempting some defense, they're was no suspense. So in that sense I can see how the game looked boring.
 
I can watch hours of any previous SC game no problem, SCv eventually starts hurting my eyes.

RingOuts are heavily nerfed. There no cool cancels, WL, or wall jumps. Throws are overly emphasized(constant grabing is very very boring). No decent WR moves to punish throws. Because of the small moveset the game play looked too easy and lacking in depth. Since everyone was constantly rushing down, instead of attempting some defense, they're was no suspense. So in that sense I can see how the game looked boring.

Your POST is hurting my eyes. How you can get something so backward is beyond me.
 
I can't really consider that a comeback mechanic. Keep in mind that if you're down two rounds, get the meter boost, and use it mount a 2-round comeback, THEY get a free meter at that point too. Both players get full and equal use of it, unlike X-factor or Ultras which may add a one-sided advantage due to the ridiculous buff in the case of X-factor and the fact that round-ending removes the other player's ultra meter, where they may have ate their comeback boost and now they can't send it back at them.

As far as throw breaks doing damage... keep in mind it's just a sliver of health. It's just right for landing a throw attempt which already requires a correct guess. The way it is now, the thrower has a big disadvantage. They must guess right twice in order to do any damage, and the defender only has to guess right once. Also, the thrower has to close distance if players are spacing properly so really, they have to guess that an attack isn't coming before they can enter into that guessing game.

Say the thrower manages to get in. Defender can either duck while reacting to block slow lows and mids, or stand and throw break. Thrower can either throw or do an unreactable mid. Throw's expected damage on successful attempt will be close to the average of the throws divided by two, usually around 30 up to 45 damage. A safe unreactable mid will generally be somewhere between 30 and 65, matchup specific on safety and damage. Unsafe, again, matchup specific, 55 to 80. So the mixup is 30-45/30-65 against good punishers, else it's 30-45/55-80.

Assuming the defender is rooted in place, the minimal defense, (but not long enough to get side-grabbed,) the reverse mixup can be as strong as their duck-throw-punish (not that high) and their mid punish. Against certain characters, it's just not in the attacker's favor to mix up on them. Sophie, for example, can easily duck punish with FC1B8BAK (76) if the player is deliberate about the throw guess, and can punish hard enough to deter use of unsafe mids. Tech crouches in general are really good, so often it's something like 30-75/0.

This doesn't take into account more advanced offense and defense and the fact that the defender first has to get in... but the offense should be favored a bit more.
Yea great explanation, you have your opinion i have mine and still think that needs to be change, but if you go to devastation hope we can get the time to play so you can see why i say it needs to be change, hope you have the eyesight to duck all my throws.
 
Yea great explanation, you have your opinion i have mine and still think that needs to be change, but if you go to devastation hope we can get the time to play so you can see why i say it needs to be change, hope you have the eyesight to duck all my throws.

The difference between you and Signia is that you have fundamentally differnt visions of where game design should go. You beating him won't change his mind, and for good reason.

Signia doesn't want defense to be as powerful because of all the hoops an attacker has to jump through to successfully land a throw/mid mixup. It makes for a very boring and turtly game in many people's opinions. This is compounded by the fact that standing guard while throw breaking is already a VERY potent form of defense.

Whereas people like you believe that good defense should be heavily rewarded, and it should. But I feel like you are ignoring the fact that like Signia pointed out, your opponent already had to guess correctly to land a throw attempt in the first place. I don't see a problem with them being rewarded with a tiny amount of damage.
 
The difference between you and Signia is that you have fundamentally differnt visions of where game design should go. You beating him won't change his mind, and for good reason.

Signia doesn't want defense to be as powerful because of all the hoops an attacker has to jump through to successfully land a throw/mid mixup. It makes for a very boring and turtly game in many people's opinions. This is compounded by the fact that standing guard while throw breaking is already a VERY potent form of defense.

Whereas people like you believe that good defense should be heavily rewarded, and it should. But I feel like you are ignoring the fact that like Signia pointed out, your opponent already had to guess correctly to land a throw attempt in the first place. I don't see a problem with them being rewarded with a tiny amount of damage.
Yea understand what you are saying, but it seems we have different ways to view the game, so from were i stand i still say they have to change that, and im not talking about beating him, i talked about throws i dont know if im going to beat him.
 

I can't understand what you're trying to say. Plus the points you're making are just your opinion on the game. Plus SC5 has a long ways to go before it's done. Plus your average joe doesn't tune in to fighting game streams or any other stream for a video game, so they will have some semblance of an idea on what's going on. The elements that are confusing to you won't necessarily be confusing to them.

Also, I'm not saying that 3D are boring, but watching them certainly is.
 
Hell has frozen over, I agree with Signia and NFK, in the same thread. Also the curling picture was my idea! Get hype!

-Idle
 
Like Jaxel, I 2 found myself bored, but I think it was because its the demo version of SoulCalibur.
Same characters just kept getting used. Like watching repeats of a t.v. Show..... BUT I strongly blame my boredom on the demo.



I believe once SC5 is released, it will b fun to watch, because then ppl will learn new combos,tech-traps, n all new features about the game.

P.S. - And everyone will enjoy watching my Natsu in action... Lol!
 
I agree with Omega about the throw damage; it was very funny at first to see a character dying after breaking a throw... in a game where you can't possibly GI a throw, and most launchers can go to CE, and break a Natural throw do chip damage, then Siegfried will be OP...

Astaroth will be OP... but I don't want a game where defense can be break by throw spam; I want a game with options; when you break a throw in SF4 or Tekken you don't lose health; in SC case you only lose health breaking a special throw from Kilik. In SC2 after the opponent break a throw you have some frame advantage and nothing more, something that I guess is right( in SC2 you can have free damage doing Nightmare 3B after throw break).

So far I like everything in SCV, but not the chip damage for throw breaking... that's insane.
 
I quite like the throw break damage. It is like chip damage. However I do agree with Stryker that dying from a throw break is extreme (if I had it my way you wouldn't be able to die from any little tiny pokes..) Spider for president!!
 
I like the fact that a sliver of life is lost when a throw is broken for many reasons but mainly this one. It Improves the pace and speed of the game (the length of a round I mean). This game seems to try to be breaking away from the defensive heavy play of the past and balance it out. THe biggest complaint Ive ever had with sul calibur was how boring it could be to watch if you have to high level turtles going at it, fun to play as, not fun to watch.

@Omega: You may be loosing life when you get thrown and break it, but now you have the shiny new JG to mess with :). I will say this though, I think the compromise for everyone should be if you get the early break you take no damage.
 

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