Valid reasons to warrant a Ban.

E.C. said:
And ban Yoshi from Tekken. Fighting with a sword? This is Tekken, not Soul Calibur.

And ban him from Soul Calibur as well. This is Soul Calibur, not Tekken.
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lol. I think this appropriately sums up the absurdity of wanting to ban the SW characters on principle alone.

@arstal--I'm totally for seeing both sides of the argument, but I really haven't seen anything convincing in favor of banning all SW characters. I can't speak for everyone here, but until I see some conclusive evidence for banning them, count me in on the "Stop banning new crap because it's new!" side.
 
CNP said:
He's been banned in MLG tourneys from day one. :)
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I actually think that's a dumb ban. The Elite body is a simple way of mixing up the game for one.

But for another, it's actually a disadvantaged hitbox compared to the Spartan. It just seems like a kneejerk "wah, it's different!!" ban. It'd be like in SC4 if they banned Yod... wait.
 
So...what have you guys accomplished? I don't think any of you are even serious about this...seems people are just interested in drama.

We can either organize ourselves and work out a final rule set for these characters, or just shut up and let everyone do whatever they fucking like.

Personally I respect what other countries have done...they managed to get things resolved without making complete fools of themselves.
 
Maxou said:
Tiamat : even you can't deny Algol doesn't change the gameplay.
Besides the point is not being his strengh, if he's broken or not, but him changing the gameplay. And he is.

God ... I knew I shouldn't have come to this thread, I'll stop now.
It's impressive the way you're getting agressive when I am just pointing out OUR reasons to ban them.
You're doing great to give a positive impression of the SoulCalibur community !
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I'm just saying your reasons are crap. If you guys think Algol changes the gameplay, name me a character that does not "change the gameplay." You have to fight every character differently to be most effective, Algol is no different. On the other hand, the fundamental game mechanics at your disposal are exactly the same against every character, including Algol.

As for impression of the SC community, from what I can tell the 2D communities think the SC community is a joke because of our pansy ass banning practices. I know it's hopeless to argue since I can't get anyone unbanned no matter how good my arguments are, but I'm still gonna call people out for giving bullshit reasons for the bans.
 
E.C. said:
I actually think that's a dumb ban. The Elite body is a simple way of mixing up the game for one.

But for another, it's actually a disadvantaged hitbox compared to the Spartan. It just seems like a kneejerk "wah, it's different!!" ban. It'd be like in SC4 if they banned Yod... wait.
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I guess this negates the disadvatange? lol
 
KingAce said:
So...what have you guys accomplished? I don't think any of you are even serious about this...seems people are just interested in drama.

Personally I respect what other countries have done...they managed to get things resolved without making complete fools of themselves.
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France and Canada look pretty foolish to me right now.

We may be making fun of people a bit, and getting too sarcastic, but I still think we're having a constructive conversation. I wouldn't expect to be invited for official decision making, but if it went like this thread, and I was allowed to read it, I'd be happy. This is certainly going better than any poll thread I've ever seen.
 
CNP said:
What is this "image" of Soul Calibur that you speak of? SCIV has Starwars characters. That's what it is. Maybe we should all just go back to holding Soul Edge tourneys or something. Is that more like what Soul Calibur is "supposed" to be?
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The image I speak of is that in the competitive scene, Soul Calibur is traditionally recognized as a game with ancient melee weapons and ancient warriors.

I don't mind if a few competitors use SW characters, but if too many competitors use Star Wars characters, then I'm concerned because I felt that this will alter the way Soul Calibur was traditionally thought off. Star Wars will get a lot of attention.
 
franman said:
The image I speak of is that in the competitive scene, Soul Calibur is traditionally recognized as a melee weapon game with ancient warriors incorporated.

My concern is that if too many competitors use Star Wars characters then we're altering the way Soul Calibur was traditionally thought off.
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I still don't understand how breaking "tradition" is a problem.
 
PhilBond said:
France and Canada look pretty foolish to me right now.
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I don't think it's fair to group all of Canada like that. It's only 1 person who is banning them in a small time tourney that he runs. As far as I know no other Canadian is in favor of banning all 3 Star Wars characters.

I was hoping most people would stick to the topic, which is what valid reasons for banning should be so we can set guidelines for future reference, but it seems like it's not possible to keep this thread from becoming a ban Algol/Star Wars debate. So I would like to add my thoughts about Yoda, and people's reasons for banning him:

"You can not throw him"
True, you can not, but he has so many negative aspects about him (I'll get to that), that it makes this look like a MINOR advantage for him.

"High's don't hit him/half the move list does not work on him"
This is FALSE. Highs and most moves DO work on him, they just don't work when he's on the ground. Half the time he is jumping, so a well timed high, or move that wouldn't normally hit him, will work at that point. A Lizardman player can play the game by being in his crawl stance half the time. High's and some mids don't work on him then. Should that be banned too?

"Normal Combo's don't work on him"
Since when did this game become Killer Instinct or Tekken? This game isn't only about pulling combos, it's about mind games, spacing, interrupting, mixups, and more. So what if you can't properly combo Yoda? That shouldn't hinder your ability to play the game. And it's not like Yoda has the upper hand with his combos. His best damage viable combo is 59 damage, and it can only be on counterhit (CH A+B,B, 6B+K, B).

Now I would like to point out his drawbacks:

He has NO STEP
Yoda can not step, period. He can 8 way run, very very slowly, and can jump to the side, which is no where near as fast or useful as stepping. This makes certain linear moves like Asta's 44B, and 22_88B very good against him, since he is usually forced to block such moves, and this brings me to the next point:

His Soul Gauge depletes quickly
It's very easy to damage Yoda's Soul Gauge, just GI him alot (easy to GI since he's all about string attacks and mostly mids), and use strong verticals, since he will be forced block them most of the time, since he has no step.

His drawbacks by far out way the positives. He is not a character that is overpowered, or unbeatable, in fact certain characters can be unbeatable for him, because of how bad he is. He doesn't take away from the gameplay aside from throws and combos, and even then he has more severe elements taken away from his own game play, which more than even it out.

You can't throw him? Well he has no step.
You can't hit him with certain moves at certain times? Well he can get Critical Finished much faster than you can.
You can't combo him for much damage? Well he can't really combo you for much either.

The mind game and adaptation aspects of the game are still very much there when fighting Yoda. Those are the core elements of the game and they are not taken away. He only takes away some minor aspects of the game. He can still be very much dealt with and is in fact very difficult to win with against a knowledgeable opponent. This is me speaking from experience since I use him as a secondary character.
 
I completely agree with Oof's reasoning for criteria for a true ban.

Namely the only thing that should warrant a ban is a game-breaking glitch or a character being so grossly overpowered to the point that the only viable way to win at the highest competitive level would be to pick that character.

That's how bans should really be implemented.

As for the 4 characters mentioned in this thread:

Algol: He has the ability to hide within a complete bubble shield by continously shooting them around him and side-stepping into them. If the opponent gets too close he can continue to hide in the shield until it's appropriate to attack by doing the runaway double-shot. This makes it very difficult for anyone to get a hit on him without being instantly CH'd by the shield and combo'd for their trouble. This is the only thing that makes me consider him as a candidate for banning. Still not totally convinced due to there being some long range attacks in the game that can penetrate the shield.

Vader: Ban Vader? You're kidding right? Absolutely no reason to.

Yoda: Being immune to highs and throws is a pretty clear reason to ban him if you ask me. His saving grace is that he isn't that good anyway and has generally bad matchups across the board. This may change in time.

Starkiller: see Vader

A character not fitting in with an overall "theme" perceived among the other characters is not a valid reason for a ban. Period. C'mon now.
 
franman said:
The image I speak of is that in the competitive scene, Soul Calibur is traditionally recognized as a game with ancient melee weapons and ancient warriors.

I don't mind if a few competitors use SW characters, but if too many competitors use Star Wars characters then I'm concerned because I felt that this will alter the way Soul Calibur was traditionally thought off.

Star Wars will get a lot of attention.
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Oh. Tradition. Ok. I get your point, but I still don't agree with it. I'm not really a we-must-stick-with-traditions type of guy. I just play the (new) game and enjoy it.
 
I personally think there isn't much wrong with banning Star Wars characters* and Algol. I don't play as any of them, and they only piss me off. However, I don't much care if they're allowed, with the exception of Yoda.

*Yoda should be banned without question. He breaks MAJOR game mechanics, such as grapples, highs, and combos. Say you play as a character like Siegfried, as I do, and you rely on juggles as a principle element of combat; when you fight Yoda, the only combos I can think of that work are rising {B} SCH B and SRSH {K} SRSH A+B. Siegfried's 4A and 6K punishers are also virtually useless against a Yoda, due to the fact that both attacks are highs. Yoda also effectively destroys the gameplay of Astaroth and Rock as well, due to the fact that both of them almost completely rely on grapples/attack grapples to be used effectively. Yoda basically destroys the entire game.
 
MAILBOXARSON99: To me it feels like Siegfried is one of the most difficult match ups for Yoda, mainly because of how fast Sieg can CF him due to Yoda not having step and being forced to block alot of moves. I'll be going somewhere today to play against a good Sieg offline, so I will further test this matchup.
 
I see absolutely no reason to ban any character in this game. Everyone agrees that Vader and Yoda fit in stylistically with the other fighters. Yoda is different, but *absolutely terrible*. Why punish people who want to punish themselves by picking him?

Algol is high on the tier list, but he's not so overpowered as to warrant a ban. I've seen a few tournament vids where Algol ended up in the finals, but I don't think I've ever seen him win. From my understanding, the infinites he has are so ridiculously difficult to set up that basing your game around doing so in a real match would pretty much assure a loss (I could be wrong on this), and although he has mechanics that no other fighter has (bubbles), so does Hilde and no one has seriously suggested banning her, so obviously that's not a real issue.

I agree with everyone saying that the only reason to ban a character is if they are a "win button" character in which the only viable option is to choose them if you want to win. No character in this game is remotely close to that powerful.
 
"...If an expert does anything he can to win, then does he exploit bugs in the game? The answer is a resounding yes...but not all bugs."

"...But there is a limit. There is a point when the bug becomes too much. In tournaments, bugs that turn the game off, or freeze it indefinitely, or remove one of the characters from the playfield permanently are banned. Bugs so extreme that they stop gameplay are considered unfair even by non-scrubs. As are techniques that can only be performed on, say, the player-1 side of the game. Tricks in fighting games that are side-dependent (that is, they can only be performed by the 2nd player or only by the first player) are sometimes not allowed in tournaments simply because both players don't have equal access to the trick--not because the tricks are too powerful...."

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

the point, not because they are too powerful is a focus for me. Thats not a reason to ban.

the only other thing I would say are infinities. A combo that once started drains all an opponents life that they cannot escape. Different from a great mixup that you/your opponent can't get out of.
 
Thane said:
"...If an expert does anything he can to win, then does he exploit bugs in the game? The answer is a resounding yes...but not all bugs."

"...But there is a limit. There is a point when the bug becomes too much. In tournaments, bugs that turn the game off, or freeze it indefinitely, or remove one of the characters from the playfield permanently are banned. Bugs so extreme that they stop gameplay are considered unfair even by non-scrubs. As are techniques that can only be performed on, say, the player-1 side of the game. Tricks in fighting games that are side-dependent (that is, they can only be performed by the 2nd player or only by the first player) are sometimes not allowed in tournaments simply because both players don't have equal access to the trick--not because the tricks are too powerful...."

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

the point, not because they are too powerful is a focus for me. Thats not a reason to ban.

the only other thing I would say are infinities. A combo that once started drains all an opponents life that they cannot escape. Different from a great mixup that you/your opponent can't get out of.
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Ban Lizardman!
 
PhilBond said:
France and Canada look pretty foolish to me right now.

We may be making fun of people a bit, and getting too sarcastic, but I still think we're having a constructive conversation. I wouldn't expect to be invited for official decision making, but if it went like this thread, and I was allowed to read it, I'd be happy. This is certainly going better than any poll thread I've ever seen.
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France looks stupid how? Their community is far more organized than ours...your view is screwed.

Going better...
Mostly because it's filled with people that agree with you...and because it so one sided, for that very reason...it obviously accomplishing nothing.

This thread is filled with pro keep every thing the way it is people. You all agree how nice...so what?

How about we make a thread solely to accomplish what needs to be accomplished. Discuss these issues objectively and come to an organized but fair rule set.
 
DiBiddilyBop said:
I still don't understand how breaking "tradition" is a problem.
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Cuz Star Wars will gain more recognition than Soul Calibur that way. In other words I'm afraid this will suck more audience into Star Wars instead of Soul Calibur. Star Wars belongs to another company not Namco.

So if Star Wars become so popular and Namco were to release SC5 with a different guest character or w/o any then wouldn't they lose that audience (which is the wrong audience to attract in the first place).
 
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