Are you happy with Siegfried in SC4?

Ok so try to imagine sc4 Sieg in the sc3 gameplay :P

forgot [A], SSH K NH ><
66KA has nothing the 66K stun is breakable and the A is high.
 
A blend of SC3 and SC4 Sieg will be hot sauce :)

Don't forget in SC3 AE, flapjack was safe and led to sweet mixups. It seemed to have more range, flapjack seems...useless now? i don't see ppl using at high level...i still do though.
 
Aulord, i've to strong disagree with many of your points. I really love new Sieg, but too many things got tuned down. As Spidey stated before, Sieg had many viable offence and defense tools ripped off.

WL-mixup: Launchersafe mixup, which gave 40 or 60 dmg if succeeded. On block you received small punishment.

22KA-string, with option for safe low. Great frames on hit as well, though stancetransitions are poor compared to sc4. Good frames on block were way too juicy however.

66K:B, safe fast TC with guaranteed extra damage and front ringout on CH.

And the last but not the least, WS , though it was unsafe, you could kneespam or spin your way out of danger. Much better damage output on NH and CH (CH WS ~SCH A+B~4[A] and SRSH-mix). Better suited for punishing, but pretty evil in WS-mixup situation.

These are few things to mention, but Sieg had firepower in SC3 too. Gamemechanics works better for Sieg, which compensate these lose. Ofcourse his new goodies are sweet, but I personally miss those fance tricks of old Sieg
 
hotnikkelz said:
A blend of SC3 and SC4 Sieg will be hot sauce :)

Don't forget in SC3 AE, flapjack was safe and led to sweet mixups. It seemed to have more range, flapjack seems...useless now? i don't see ppl using at high level...i still do though.
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flapjack is still useful because it's a decently tracking move that is in a constant TC state. It takes a big drop in effectiveness if the opponent can block it on reflex consistently (from my experience, almost no one does this). Even if they can block it on reflex consistently it is still not completely useless because of the TC.

for example

CH 1K is +2, amy/fast A characters can beat all his non TC moves. so then you start doing CH 1K > flapjack. sieg is kinda lacking in TC moves from a crouch isn't he? especially since 66K got hit with the RAPE bat in this game, and his new WS B, while great, does not TC like the old one.
 
Flapjack is still good.
66KB was NOT safe.
WL KB could be punished hard by a decent number of characters (-16).
WS ~2_8B+K didnt evade shit and the initial WS move also had no TC.
22_88B tech-trap loop could be blocked with standing guard.
ch 4K tech-traps are still in.
22K did only give +2~+3 on block.

3 things I miss about SC3 Sieg:

B+K.
SCH B_{1} block frames.
The voice actor.

Every other nerf is secondary in my eyes and does not take away from Sieg being a beast.
 
basically what sach said

and um.....I used to play sieg alot in 3 but never posted or read of the boards so I never really knew the acronyms on the stances til this game came out so....WL?

anyway though they have changed sig alittle from 3 to 4 I really wouldnt change too much. I never really used B+K unless I thought the opponent was horizontal heavy. Against Amy, sieg gets guaranteed damage off of both versions and when near a wall (opponent with back to wall), guarantees 33B. In this game Sieg can contend with all characters, in 3 it was a different story
 
And Sacharja slams down the Siegfried law! ;D

Very true. And yeah, I miss the old voice acting too.

If there's anything I do miss more than anything, it's old B+K, but what can you do? It's still damned useful despite that.

About the CH 4K stuff, it seems like 4K knocks them back a little farther? Or Sieg seems to recover slower on hit? I don't know. It doesn't feel the same to me for some reason. Were any frames or properties changed from 3 in that move?

Spidey, I'm not sure how easy it is to break shake stun on 66KA, but quite honestly, it is a brief moment you have to react in. Hell, it's a very fast move in general. The opponent might space out in that window. And even then, they might not retaliate just because of how quick they have to shake. Then again, you're right, the A hits high, and that sucks bawls.

And Korento, in certain situations, the new CH WS is better. Try this near a wall: CH WS , SCH k, 3A, w! 3, wait for them to slide down, SCH k, 3A/1K, whatever you prefer. It's a nasty techtrap, and you can always stance cancel from SCH k in SRSH, I suppose, if you wanted. Was old WS good? Yeah. But I really prefer the new one.

66KB and 66KA are ... well, they're -both- kinda secondary/tertiary moves. They're not really a core in his arsenal, and quite honestly, they're about equally useful now that I think about it. So he hasn't really -lost- much in my opinion with that change.
 
Sacharja said:
Flapjack is still good.
66KB was NOT safe.
WL KB could be punished hard by a decent number of characters (-16).
WS ~2_8B+K didnt evade shit and the initial WS move also had no TC.
22_88B tech-trap loop could be blocked with standing guard.
ch 4K tech-traps are still in.
22K did only give +2~+3 on block.

3 things I miss about SC3 Sieg:

B+K.
SCH B_{1} block frames.
The voice actor.

Every other nerf is secondary in my eyes and does not take away from Sieg being a beast.
Click to expand...


Well technically both 66K and WL K were safe, follow-ups not. And because of those follow-ups, you could mindfuck some frames for your advance, just like 22K. But you got my point. I love older Sieg more, though old Sieg couldn't ever offer me the satisfaction of devasting wall splat combos.

Oh yeah, can you do Instant Crouch Cancel anymore? Like 2B~2~2A+B? Works retardly well in SC3.

//EDIT: Aulord, yeah, I agree with you. Walls work better for him now. Ie. If you can make opp wall splat with 3A~w!~3 that his back facing you, Sieg can relaunch him with full charged SCH .

That would be 3A~w!~3~SCH ~comboender of your choice. Damage is low, but relaunch is nasty ;D.

Hero Sacharja, please ignore my complaints =)
 
Even 66K and WL K by themselves werent safe, although Im not going to pull a K's flicker here and say 66K was easily punished. There were like 3 characters in the game that got free dmg off of it.

@AuLord

4K does indeed still have the same properties it did in SC3.
 
AuLord said:
66KB and 66KA are ... well, they're -both- kinda secondary/tertiary moves. They're not really a core in his arsenal, and quite honestly, they're about equally useful now that I think about it. So he hasn't really -lost- much in my opinion with that change.
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from the standpoint of the US ver of SC3, you are totally wrong. 66KB actually TCed well, and it was hit confirmable. GREAT move

66KA does not TC (death knell right there), is not hit confirmable, punishable on block after first hit whether he does second hit or not by some characters, second hit is high. it SUCKS

losing 66KB is IMO the biggest downgrade he got in SC4. However, it was downgraded in AE because they made it not hit confirmable anymore, so from AE standpoint biggest downgrade would be the loss of that cheesy high move (I forget the input)
 
the difference between 66KB and 66KA for me, while the second was mid and gave shakeable stun on CH, is was unsafe and wasnt really worth it while even though 66KA was a high, it was safe and interrupts well in between the K and the A, and because of this I dont see too many people trying to punish the K unless they 2A but I dont see too many people knowing about this which is why I always tell people, play the player not the character, alot of people arent that knowledgeable about sieg. but anyway I`m talking too much about a move that is C rank at best.

WS B- in sc3 I believe it was easy as balls to interrupt the K afterwards and on CH just gave you a SCH B, in 4 this move is possibly faster?, harder to interrupt the K, Guarantees a sch B afterward (dunno if many of you knew this but SCH B was never truly guaranteed off of 3 or ws in 3), and on CH gives you a nasty combo that can lead to a nasty Tech trap.

B+K- the true difference I see here is that in 4, body attacks cannot be parried, yes there is a difference in the length of the Auto GI but how many people used this move other than the same speed of a normal parry? No real harm done IMO, in 4 you can B+K from stance, another good addition.

flapjack- If I remember this correctly you couldnt throw someone behind you in 3, I believe just the addition of that takes out the sc3 version

4K- I personally dont like to work on just Tech Traps, so I dont really miss the 3A trap (if its actually gone), If I believe the opponent doesnt know to tech left afterward, then I`ll hit him with 33 after, if I see he does know where to tech, I`ll just 1K, I like free damage.

3K- Did anyone really try to attack after this move in 3? if so......really? Its still safe if this game, I never thought it was the most useful move but when "last hit" was in play I might use this as a final rushdown

22K- isnt this that slow high kick? and didnt we replace this with the kA series?

voice acting- learn to like japanese =p

22_88 B- sc3- can lead to tech traps or if the opponent doesnt move gives you a free 22_88B
sc4- 88B- leads to a 3 hit guaranteed combo, RO remotely near edge
22B- leads to SSH A+B on normal hit, SSH A,A on counter
Both directions leading to nasty damage and very fearsome compared to its SC3 counterpart

dont forget 11_77B never stunned on CH in 3

I can go on but I got somewhere to be.
 
kPc said:
flapjack- If I remember this correctly you couldnt throw someone behind you in 3, I believe just the addition of that takes out the sc3 version
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flapjack is MUCH worse than SC3 (any version)

SC3 flapjack speed i17
SC4 flapjack speed i22

That's the killer right there.
 
I never have too many problems with it being blocked and this is against good players, asta's 1A is slow as balls and yet it can hit people,or how about lizardmans A+B in the crawl stance, I`ve seen it. Speed might be worse this game but i`ll take the +5 frames to have the ability to throw someone behind me.
 
Well, I won't argue about 66KB. Quite honestly, when I was playing Sieg at the time, I never even noticed there was a TC in the move. It never fell into my personal arsenal, so 66KA really doesn't make much of a difference to -my- Sieg in the end. So, yeah, nerf-beaten with a new 66KA.

I never realized the frame difference between flapjacks. My God.

Off of CH WS in SC3, wasn't A+B guarenteed, and you could techtrap after with 3 again?
 
Oh well, let's not make this too difficult or K'flickers. I just miss his high ws-damage.

Is anyone using B+K as an trap anymore? In sc3, you could pull K~B+K, 4K~B+K, SSH K~B+K, but I haven't see anyone doing that on sc4?
 
something good that was upgraded for SC4 is actually WS A, can't jump the second hit of WS AA after blocking first hit anymore, which makes it much much better. also better tracking now
 
Tiamat said:
from the standpoint of the US ver of SC3, you are totally wrong. 66KB actually TCed well, and it was hit confirmable. GREAT move

66KA does not TC (death knell right there), is not hit confirmable, punishable on block after first hit whether he does second hit or not by some characters, second hit is high. it SUCKS

losing 66KB is IMO the biggest downgrade he got in SC4. However, it was downgraded in AE because they made it not hit confirmable anymore, so from AE standpoint biggest downgrade would be the loss of that cheesy high move (I forget the input)
Click to expand...

Well well well... the users of sweihanders of the world are reunited to share theirs feelings about the beloved hero and his powers... let me resume the latest posts:

Sacharja: "3 things I miss about SC3 Sieg:
B+K.
SCH B_{1} block frames.
The voice actor.
Every other nerf is secondary in my eyes and does not take away from Sieg being a beast."

kPc: "basically what sach said"

sdnkorento: "Hero Sacharja, please ignore my complaints =)"

hotnikkelz: "A blend of SC3 and SC4 Sieg will be hot sauce :)"

AuLord: "And Sacharja slams down the Siegfried law! ;D"

Spidey: "Ok so try to imagine sc4 Sieg in the sc3 gameplay :P"

I gonna have to say this... I don't wanna go back to Siegf from SC3. Those times were more frustrating days than glorious days... I love the whole new system in every possible way and Siegfried is more fun than ever to play an use, but please don't miss understand me, the only possible complaint I could said is that the differences against other characters are clear as crystal... and this is not about balance, cause the gameplay is balanced at its top, but the characters possibilities not.

Major Complaint: Mitsurugi, Setsuka, Sophitia, Kilik and a more characters lift the opponent even on tech jump, starting a combo... also those sames characters lift on mid range, but Siegfried don't. I just want to say is why? Maybe its cause this sword is cold? uh?

3KKB... good move, but also vulnerable... not combo even on CH... why?

66KA... good on CH... punished even if u only did 66K... why?

SRSH A... high, slow, vulnerable, doesnt start a combo... high... short range... high... why?

Maybe the size of my complaints is equal to the sum of my needs...

-Stryker-
 
@Tiamat, 66KA has TC frames but its like 2 of the total 15 and extremely situation. Try blocking NM [A] and interrupt his NSS K with 66K. Again it sucks. In sc3 it was perfect. Btw what was that high u r talking about? :P

@Kpc, WS , SCH B was a NH on sc3 also and ch WS , SCH A+B, 4A was another combo :P
flapjack isnt only much slower as sach said (NM had the same flapjack there is now on sc4 back then in terms of speed i think) but it is much more unsafe, when it used to be like -16/-17.
22/88K was and is slow (i22) but it was totally worth doing for that + on block.

@Aulord, it might be hard to break the 66K stun but it can be done. Also u need a ch for a breakable stun when u had a knockdown in ch at sc3 which could wall hit or RO or just make the 66KB a combo. The old B of 66KB was that new 66K :P

To make myself clear one more time. Imo sc3 Sieg was better as a char but sc4 one is really helped by the sc4 gameplay
 
well block safety of flapjack is a funny thing to talk about

SC3 AE: safe on block
earlier SC3 versions: -20 or worse on block, but you can GI before you can block by quite a bit (wtf)
SC4: not as unsafe as early SC3 versions frame data wise, but GI option is gone

and yeah, nightmare SC3 flapjack was i22. they just decided to make sieg's the same speed now for some reason
 
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