Balance Patch Discussion

Very nice. Thanks for this.

Changes that I'd already thought of are:

Cervantes: aB - increase freeze on block; reduce damage by 10-20 (40 > 20-30)

α Patroklos: 33B / 2363B - increase block freeze (as well as reduce pushback); reduce tracking.
Agree w/ reducing Twister damage (perhaps by more).

Viola: VS 6B+K - decrease freeze on hit (so that 3B cannot combo after {6B+K}, 3A_6B)

Leixia: 6A+B - increase damage (34 - 40)
22K - increase freeze on hit (+0 > +4); and/or reduce pushback
A+B - perhaps increase damage; perhaps decrease block freeze

EDIT: oh btw I don't feel Nightmare needs a nerf

Interesting idea.

Overall :
- Remove all invincibility frames from CE
- All CE more unsafe (around -24 or something)
- 2K -4 hit instead of -2. Like SC4.

Alpha :
- Less pushback from 33B
- Remove tracking from 66B
- JF Twister no damage increase (36dmg like regular twister is enough)
- 2A BE less damage (from 40 to 35 seems good)
- FC 3B:B less damage, no more ridiculously easy 110dmg combo
- Make 33B more unsafe (depending on how more unsafe, it can be a very hardcore nerf).
- CH 33A less advantage hit (from +8 to +6) in order not to have CE being combo
- Fix 2A BE issues on little hitbox characters. And Patroklos. And Natsu. And other characters....
- Fix Twister/JF Twister into JF twister being insanely hard to do when opponent tech left. Inceptions of JFs are really hardcore...
- agB / ag:B less damage.

> So a lot of hardcore nerfs but IMO necesary... No more mindless 33B spams, no more insane damage throws (90/100dmg throws are stupid), no more insane damage at all (if you don't go for really skilled combos).
The 2A BE and JT Twister nerf will nerf all his combos and throws. The 214~3B:B will nerf a lot of combos too.

Algol :
- 66B reduce blockstun (from -4 to -10)
- CEx2 reduce damage (from 125 to 110)
- Remove (a little) QiB/QiK tracking.
- 44B less damage. 44B unsafe.
- FC 8B less damage, FC 8B BE less damage too.

Cervantes :
- CH 1A:B less damage.
- 1AB hit no pushback
- iGDR less damage
- 3B -15 instead of -13
- 4B BE less advantage hit (+4 is enough instead of +8)
- Completely remove backdash at the end of CE
- aB reduce pushback, and make aB more unsafe (from -18 to -22/-24)

Night :
- No change

Omega :
- Make DNS B -18 instead of -14
- Make NS A -18
- CE only 80 instead of 90
- BB -8 block instead of -6

Pyrrha :

- 66A decrease damage
- 66A more unsafe (from -8 to -12 like Omega's).
- BB -8 block instead of -6

Viola :
- B+K BE less damage (from 50 to 30)
- 66B less damage
- remove multiples BEs in combos
- Less advantage from BT throw, only 3B needs to connect, 44A BE should in no way connect.
- Speaking of 44A BE : less damage, no delay.
- 3B -16 instead of -14.
- Fix her glitchs

Here's my opinion guys, feel free to agree or disagree my lists will not be the most accurate.

A-Pat: Decrease damage on JF twister,33B- reduce pushback,Increase block freeze
Cervantes: aB- reduce damage, reduce pushback. 4B BE- decrease freeze on block( 1 or 2 frames) 1AB- Decrease damage on JF version.
Pat: 1k- negative on hit instead of +
Nightmare: Same as belial's lists
Viola: Set 6B+k less freeze on block, 2B+K BE- should not combo into AAB, 44a BE- should not be guaranteed on a back throw (correct me if im wrong about this), should not be delayable.
Algol: 66B- less freeze on block, reduce damage on some meter combos
Omega: DNS B- decrease damage, BT B+K- reduce knockback distance, Decrease soul gauge damage on 4A.
Mitsurugi: same as belial's. Im going to add reduce clean hit rate on 2kb BE. And 22_88 B- reduce tracking or less freeze on block ( not sure if the move has tracking)
Astaroth: 22b BE- Decrease tracking. Decrease Clean hit probability on half circle A+G throw. (sorry don't know the notation for that move yet)

ok this is all I have now, discuss. I hope my lists atleasts has some positive insights on this game's balance.

Viola: Increase distance or freeze on SET back throw(removing the only infinite no one bitches about).

A character like Cervantes imo should count his lucky stars he can punish -11 attacks at all, let alone having an i11 move as an interrupt that kills step and crouching. So even at 20 dmg it would be a great move. At 30+, I think the recovery frames need to be longer, and less pushback. (I meant increase recovery, not block freeze.) So that even if the block freeze is increased as well, and it remains -18, it is always possible and easy to punish.

I said 33B needs to be more unsafe, not JFT (I should have said shorter block freeze).

I think the nerfs to Omega are too harsh. She only needs little nerfs, if any at all, imo.

You reminded me about Viola:

44A - reduce hit stun so that delayed 44A BE will not combo (i.e cannot be hit-confirmed). I would do this rather than remove the delay, because you can step the second part if she delays and punish her hard.

Oh 125 for 2 CE outside of combo is kinda "normal" in my book. But problem is, most often than not it's not used out side of combos.
Even for 2 CEs I am completely against 140+dmg outside a single move. Way too much damage, even with 2 CEs, and Algol doesn't even need it...

lol you just provoked an heart attack to a lot of french guys. Cpt Russia, Cpt Troll.
More seriously : The move can be ridiculously spammed in some match up. I think you don't realise how much you can spam 33B in all kinds of situation. And win.
Oh, sick antibackdash too. Taking 110dmg because you backdashed is just plain stupid.

aB : because i11 move should definitively be more unsafe if they deal 40dmg in my book. Especially if they track and have so much pushback.
4B BE : because you don't step against Cervantes. You just don't. This move hits OTG, is hard to punish on whiff depending on range used, setups for 90+ dmg on hit. And allow for a +8 mix up from BT. Just plain stupid.

Ask Saitoh for more Cervantes rage. I believe he and I are in agreement on this.

Oh IMO, her pushback are kinda fine, if you put away her pushback from her, you'll destroy the character.

Her 66A is waaaaay too strong. Come on, fast, safe antistep mid, can antibackdash and opponent is side turned on CH making 70dmg throw avaible? And you ask why you should nerf it?
Hmm perhaps a difference in mentality. I am not in favor of moves that kills too much mind games options.

About BBs : because their BB tracks, and has sick range too. From i14 mids. -8 should be a minimum IMO. Oh well, not that important of a nerf anyway.

On the contrary, I believe I know Viola VERY WELL. I studied the character since day 1 and usually put very good fights with my Viola against most people.
Oh btw, 44A BE is not launcher punishable ;) 44A is -18 but well ... ha ha

It will always be spammable if it is safe. Talk about risk/reward.

Let's say it differently then :
Stepping against Cervantes at close/mid range has such a really bad reward. 66A, 1AB, and a lot of tracking tools are there to prevent them to step much.

-13 would be fine by me.

Yeah, yeah those are possibilities. But if I see you don't GI the first hit of the ball (the correct option) or step (2nd best option), I will start to use 6B+K to cancel the 2nd hit of the ball and if you try anything random either you'll be in a 6B+K pressing situation or launched into 100dmg.
B+K BE :
- is a really good move, completely underused. Depending on positioning, setup and such, it allow for tremenduous comebacks. Combo is easy 105dmg and, it's a very good blockstun move.
- Can also be used out of combos such are the easy 6B+K 3A B+K BE one that deals 133~140dmg. With one BE. Setup is kinda hard but still... And that's only with one BE. There's some 200ish dmg video with 4 BE out of this 6B+K 3A B+K BE combo.
- can setup (hard to do in game, but I've done it) unbreakable throws for 100dmg.

Why you shouldn't have more than one BE in Viola's combos :
- not only will it nerf her sick damage (only a little BTW, adding one BE adds only some 20ish dmg or less). She will still have 100+ combos ...
- It will nerf her really, really good ring out game. 3B AAB 6A+B 2B+K BE setups for insane ring out on its own, but that's not only it. 44A BE RO, 22B BE RO, 3B RO, 4B RO, throws RO, B+K BE RO, 8A+B RO, etc... Not only her RO distance is huge out of her starters but she can step between them (can be hard to time) to get in front of the RO (easy exemple 4B step 2B+K BE step AAB 8A+B can be used to RO 180°). Viola has sick positioning game.

I can only really speak on characters I've played extensively.

Siegfried

He's a solid character in this game. There's not much that's really horribly wrong nor disgustingly overpowered with him. It takes a lot of solid yomi to succeed with him, so a successful Siegfried player is going to make use of the tools they feel will help them win regardless of inherent strengths or weaknesses - they will make them work. Aside from glitches that need fixing, there's only one buff that I can think of:

Make 2KKKKK not push Siegfried back. This nerf doesn't make any sense whatsoever, and forces him to take sub-optimal damage after certain combos (e.g. most wall splats, 1B ~ W!). 3(B)'s lack of tracking and WR (B)'s inability to hit grounded can also make dealing with rollers a tad challenging, and making the stomps usable again would bolster his okizeme a bit.


Raphael

To put it bluntly, Raphael has problems. They're not easily fixed, and many people differ on how best to fix these problems, or even what parts of Raphael's game are actually problems at all. For the purposes of giving context to the buffs, I consider Raphael's game to be an emphasis on proper spacing, intelligent use of Shadow Evade, and poking.

Make 44B safer on block. As it stands now, 44B is pretty punishable on block (-16), which limits its use as a spacing tool. If it were safer on block, it would permit Raphael to use it when spaced properly without fear of terrible punishment. -14 at the worst sounds like the best frames for it, which makes it punishable by a select few, and does not permit him to do strong reverse mix-ups against characters who can't punish it. Nerfing or altogether removing the Guard Gauge damage would also make it less rewarding to throw out, as it currently breaks in 8. Essentially, it needs to be safer to use to allow a good reward on hit, and less dangerous on block.

Alternatively, bring back SC4 44B. This would be used differently from his current 44B, as the built in Guard Impact and Tech Crouch serve as a way to escape small damage pokes and punish for good damage. The Attack Throw on a close hit gives good reward for a correct read, and makes the opponent wary of Raphael's close range poking game. It also gives KND, which allows Raphael to either continue poking, or attempt to step back to mid-range or farther, thus indirectly supplanting his spacing game. The cons of this move should come from the paltry reward it gives on a shallow hit - it should give no attack throw and be negative yet safe on shallow hit. The move is also slow enough to step on reaction if they just throw it out, which guarantees at least a Side Throw Attempt / launcher.

Make Prep K not steppable after 44A(B) on hit. You shouldn't be able to step anything when you're at -11, and I don't know why you're able to step Prep K in this situation. This hurts the move quite a bit, as there's very little incentive to NOT step - Prep AB and Prep BB don't do much to pressure. Remove the opponent's ability to step in this situation and 44A(B) becomes Raphael's legitimate close range step kill. A good way to do this would be to give it a stun on hit - specifically, the crumple stun that also gives your opponent TC frames. This allows Namco to increase the advantage on hit and make Prep K unsteppable without touching Prep K's frames, while keeping the move from being an NC with Prep BB and still maintaining the high/mid mix-up with Prep AB.

This move is already balanced by the fact that the opponent is still in a reverse mix-up situation - Guard for Prep K, Duck for Prep AB/BB, or Interrupt for SE. They can still escape punishment, but now the risk/reward is greater for Raphael; this is as it should be, since it was Raphael who made the correct read to get 44A(B) to hit.

Just a random thought, but improve the scaling on Sieg's wall combos i.e.:

SSH K, W!, 6, (wait) SCH K BE, CE

It does less damage than just 6, SCH K BE, CE. Just doesn't seem right on paper.

Raphael
-66A+G: Lower amount of critical gauge granted to opponent. (WunT)
(this was already corrected in 1.02 for the most part.....the CG gauge is quite low atm).

4B]~prep: maintain distance on hit (Multiple users)
i think this is not accurate:
problem is prepBB not 4B.
Same issue infact happens with every prep entry some more some less.
Pushback and distance issues are quite common with raph
Same happens for example with 33K(B) where second hit whiffs often.





Realistic buffs already requested in proper section by many users:
66A ....please make it track as it should and not only at tip.

SEA <===== i think many players requested this to get back to +0 on block
Reason: entering SE and prep in general is really risky....give some sort of reward and not another risky mixup.
At +0 its not that raph can do that much.

1A: more damage

22K: namco forgot the proper stun chain on this on CH. fix it.



Buff to push raph on mid tier level (personal request):
(dunno why there are 3 spoilers code is OK ._. see the third)

P.S. also i think this is not enough :|
Raph has huge issues and really few users, probably not enough to agree and make him at least a solid mid tier...
Suggestion to namco is to work hard on tests, it would be nice considering how bad namco treated raph users from sc4 onward (expecially post patches).

An interesting thread. Let me contribute.
This is almost a direct translation of some sections of my post on ger-calibur + added commentary and a few changes based on recent reflections. I also do not mention any of the whiffing fixes, since these should go in the bugfix thread. They are, however, taken into consideration for evaluating my proposed changes.
I generally don't believe in sweeping nerfs and buffs, but rather fixing what is necessary and make everyone as close to design intent and effective as possible. True balance in the sense of the word appears impossible and should *not* be pursued in my opinion.

Algol:

- QI A+BB BE removed
- QI A+BB damage increased from 41 to 50
- 3BB damage increased from 42 to 55
- double CE removed, animation re-used for single CE, total damage reduced to 95

Comments: Algols biggest problem is the binary nature of his damage. No meter: meh, meter (especially 200%): rape time. While the concept can work in theory, it doesn't really in a game were the average damage already is incredibly high to begin with. These changes serve to bring his damage more in line with everyone else, without making him weak.

Ezio:

- 1B startup reduced from i16 to i15
- B startup reduced from i16 to i15
- 3B startup reduced from i17 to i16
- 6K2 block frames improved from -30 to -18, hit frames improved from - 18 to -6
- 44B block frames improved from -10 to -2

Comments: Ezio is a character almost entirely designed around the concept of ch fishing and oki - and he's ill-equipped in both. These changes speed up some of his main ch fishing tools to make them more effective. They also improve his main option against rollers and people that stand straight back up to make his choices post-knockdown more threatening.

Hilde:

- C2 B loop removed
- B+K air throw connects at lower heights
- A+B block frames improved from -16 to -13

Comments: Hilde is an odd character with a lot of holes in her game (oki, block punishment, and mid_low/throw mix-ups come to mind). While the C2 B "infinite" definitely needs to go, there are also some aspects of her that should receive buffs. The B+K air throw is inconsistent and hard to land for no good reason, making it a reliable option post launch serves to keep her damage high (it's supposed to be, she's a whiff punishment centric character) without stupid relaunch loops. Also, for a spacing centric character her zone control is hilariously bad sometimes. A large number of her anti-step options are stepable and most of them are not even applicable at what is supposed to be her preferred range. A+B would fit, but suffers from very bad risk/reward. Making it safer, while keeping its lower end damage and hit advantage should suffice to make her spacing more effective.

Siegfried:

- 2_8B+K evasion improved to be equivalent to quickstep in effectiveness
- 66B block frames improved from -22 to -16
- 2K series doesn't push back on hit any longer and is guaranteed on grounded opponents (only 2 hits vs standing)
- aA is now i16 just like its regular version
- 4B+K backstep distance increased
- ch SSH K now causes a groundslide for a guaranteed 3B
- SRSH K hits grounded
- the last hit of BBK is now mid
- CE damage increased from 93 to 110 (40, 70)

Comments: Siegfried is a tricky character to balance, because of his design being centered around a single multi-purpose move: 3B. He also is one of those spacing characters that is extremely effective in maintaining his sphere of control. Rather than buffing already existing strengths or removing core weaknesses, these changes serve mainly to fix rather nonsensical properties of moves that stand supplementary to his main gameplan. However, let me again emphasize that these proposed changes assume that all existing major whiffing issues are fixed.


I'll comment on already suggested changes later on. Keep it up, guys.

aPat: 4A should be a stun on CH

About the nightmare suggestions in the first post.

Making his 3B 32 dmg makes it counterable by asta's bullrush BE. In that matchup outside of committing to 3A,A nightmare doesn't have a (relatively) fast mid that can stop that move. You either have to step or JG the second hit...which is admittedly easy but not the point. It forces NM to limit his offense even more than he already has to vs asta. I get its only one matchup but just bringing it up.

On the GS B launching lower on hit

I'm assuming that the purpose is to stop the standard GS B x2 to GS K BE combo. Its really good and I don't think it should give that much damage plus RO as well as it does. If you lower the launch of GS B however I'm worried that he wont be able to combo to Aga anymore. Its pretty much a way for him to RO/get decent damage without committing to another GS B. If you can somehow get decent damage (decent to me around 60-70ish range) after GS B alone with lower launch then i'm all for it, otherwise I just propose to make it so you can't get GS K BE off of the second GS B hit. GS B x2 does 72 damage on NH and is good without being retarded.

aPat:
JF Twister, JF Twister combo damage reduction. Window for garuntee increased.
33B less safe, -14 or so, maintain pushback.
FC 3B:B and BT B+K:B to be 1 frame windows.
Increase A+B GI window from i5-9 to i5-11.
8A+BB to fully track all rolls when grounded.

Viola:
44A BE - remove delay NC so it cannot be hit confirmed.
SET Backgrab less advantage, prevent 44A BE comboing.
Damage scaling to increase on all launch combos.
66B to become unsafe on block, -15.

Ivy and Astaroth:
CEs to return to 1.01 speed, unable to be crouched when cinematic begins.

Regarding Leixia, I'd like to see more of Xianghua's moves making a return. I realize that it probably isn't going to happen, but it'd be a welcome buff. Here are some examples (I'm not asking for all of it, just some):
* 3A, K (NCC) - It's not that fast, the K is duckable unless on CH. Leixia needs more viable lows.
* Give us more cancels. Why is every single cancel a Feint Cancel or a WR/FC cancel? Bring back Xianghua's SCII cancels, just make them a bit slower. I miss 6A+B (6A+K? 6B+K?), the vertical where she jumps forward with her sword in an arc. WR B cancel (though much slower than Xianghua's NTSC WR A+B cancel)?
* Xianghua's 6K. It's a high, but it's fast and has range and is safe.
* 33B - Give us back Xianghua's 33B and it's 2 cancels. Opened up for mix-ups. Make 33A+B or something.
* Low throws. Leixia needs more lows.
* Bring back Xianghua's breakdancing move (kB? I don't remember the input). That move is highly gimmicky and really slow, but it's hilarious.
* 6BB - More lows.

Since none of this is going to happen:
* Make 3A+B a bit faster. It's got bullshit range, at least make it fast. Or give it better range. Or both.
* 6KK shouldn't push back so much so Leixia gets a mix-up on hit.
* WR B BE should get its old damage back.
* A damage boost in general.
* 22_88B should not be grabbable between hits.
* 6[A] should be +2, not -2 on CH.
* Her CH stuns should give her moves combos than pokes and CE.
* 22_88K should knockdown or give more +frames on hit. It's friggin' i28 for 24 damage and doesn't combo. What was so overpowered about it, anyway?
* Better aGI frames. Her aGIs are next to useless unless the opponent pulls some really predictable strings.
* Makes 11_99A faster.

I don't know if anyone cares about my opinion but here come my list of "fixes" (sorry if i am not allowed to do, but i think the more [reasoned] opinions, the better) :

Overall fixes:

fix the changes on "fuzzy guard" or make a kind of "quick jump" : From last patch, is hard as hell to jump over any low attack in chain (i, e: Asty's 1AA 2nd hit) to punish properly due this fix.

Reduce the cost of GI to a 1/4 of metter instead of 1/2.

And, for Maxi:

Bring back ALL PLS (PLS3 the first one): It's a pain beind "read" because of this or can't do "feints" in loops or dodge vertical attacks due the lack of 8_2 PLS dodges.

Make PLS B+K aGI window a bit bigger in its starter frames: you could be punished freely with some normal hits even on hit.

Again (and from SC2): bring back LI bKg cancel.

[IMO] Undo most of his damage's nerfs inserted in 1.03: Maxi was a "very risk <-> high reward" Char before that fix. Now, Maxi is a "very risk <-> normal reward" character.