Cervantes Combo Discussion

Hey guys. I'm here to say that 3B, iGDR, B2 is beast.

After B2 we got a nice tech trap setup with throws. After B2 quick do a single step forward and do a throw if they tech, they can get caught, if they quickly stand up they get trapped in an ambiguous side/backthrow setup without mentioning we can also mix it with his BE throw. Lastly, when they stop teching out, feel free to mix it up by hitting them on the ground.
 
2A+B. This move hits grounded and stops all rolling stone dead, so if they don't tech you 2A+B.
I also like post b2 mixups and use them a lot. Crazy damage potential. 3B, iGDR, b2, step forward, A throw is something like 133 damage... for no meter. It's insane.
If they tech and then start ducking to avoid a throw, you can always step forward and 3B relaunch!
 
Yeah, I was under the impression that if they don't tech after b2, then a 3B or a 2A+B is more guaranteed damage, although they both completely whiff if the opponent does tech. Since nobody seems to tech online, I've been using the 3B, iGDR, b2, 3B "combo" for fancy-pantsy damage, but I know that a good opponent will be doing a lot more teching. How much frame advantage do you have if the opponent techs? Do you really have the time for a forward step followed by an i17 throw?
 
True but if they aren't paying attention they will get caught by it. Yeah, is more of a setup than a trap but in order to successfully implement it you need them to tech. When you get your opponent used to it, it gets worse. You can do pretty much what you want with them for a nice 130+ dmg depending on setup every time you pull out the combo.
 
If you want something it's a bit of a tech trap, 3A will catch tech trap after a successful side-tech of the b2 attack throw. Not too useful since it doesn't even catch on all characters, not to mention whiffing on those who don't tech... shucks :(

Edited for tone.
 
Probably iGDR. But I'm staying with the throw/OTG setup. It gives me the chance to play their minds for better results.
 
Moldredd said:
Probably iGDR. But I'm staying with the throw/OTG setup. It gives me the chance to play their minds for better results.
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Nope Backtech after b2 escapes everything, at least after 4B BE, b2.. I havent found anything to hit them, no tech trap etc...so i just dash forward and do 1AB....
 
I see. Good to know. I'm not a big fan of tech traps so my knowledge on that department is scarce. Meh, not being a fan of it since they became mainstream on SC3 lol.
 
Moldredd said:
I see. Good to know. I'm not a big fan of tech traps so my knowledge on that department is scarce. Meh, not being a fan of it since they became mainstream on SC3 lol.
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SC3 Tech Traps were so retarded, im not a big fan either. Good Cervantes is a sick solid char who doesnt rely on gimmicks at all.
 
Cypher said:
If you want something it's a real tech trap, 3A will tech trap after a successfully teched b2 attack throw :-)
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Just wanted to say that unfortunately this is NOT the case vs all characters. I used to use this all the time before Astaroth and others started side teching out of it.
 
ShinJin said:
yeah but only with a side tech, not back tech.
i dont think anything is guaranteed with a back tech.
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Heisenberg said:
Just wanted to say that unfortunately this is NOT the case vs all characters. I used to use this all the time before Astaroth and others started side teching out of it.
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Hmm... yeah, this stuff's no good. I made that post after turning on training mode, trying about 3 things, and then calling it a day. Let me go modify the tone of my original post to be less smug and positive...
 
I do my best to impress :]

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That said, I certainly feel that the merits of each of the various 3B followups are worth discussing, debating, and analyzing. After all, Cervantes's 3B is far-and-away one of the single best tools in the entire game! As such, it would be prudent to for us to thouroughly understand all of our options after a succesful Cannonbal Lifter. The two most common [meterless] 3B combos that I see high-level players such as Hates, NoFaceKiller, and JapaneseCervyPlayerXYZ perform are:
  • :3::B: . iGDR . :b-small::2:
  • :3::B: . :8::B+K: . iGDR . :aB:
Although we also know that some viable alternatives are:
  • :3::B: . iGDR . iGDR
  • :3::B: . :8::B+K: . :2::A+B:
We'll label these combos Combo1 through Combo4 for ease of reference.

Combo1 is the only one of these combos that pushes your opponent a significant distance forward, and while it's unlikely to give you a ring-out (due to b2 also rotating your axis a bit) all the other options end with you crossing under the opponent and not making any significant headway towards the ring edge (unless, of course, your back was to the ring edge to start). It's also certainly the easiest and most consistent of the iGDR combos, with the largest window of time in which you can input your iGDR. Of course, if you botch the iGDR, you're not getting much out of this one in terms of damage. Finally, the b2 gives you a guaranteed 3B or iGDR (or 2A+B on larger characters) if your opponent does not tech, bringing the damage of this option up to Combo3 levels. If your opponent does tech, however, they're probably getting a guaranteed punish on your whiffed 3B. Your rewards for anticipating your opponent's tech are arguable (see posts #121 to #135 of this thread).

Combo2 is a more damaging option, but only by about 4 points. Of course, if you botch the iGDR it does about 15 more damaged than a botched Combo1 (see post #101 of this thread). Otherwise, the chance of a damage boost due to Clean Hits are identical between the two combos, although I suppose the iGDR in this occurs after the second hit of the combo, so damage scaling kicks in. While this means lesser rewards from the Clean Hit, the difference is likely negligible. The real strength of Combo2 seems to stem from the position of the opponent when you end the combo with aB. The opponent happens to be at the lowest possible point in the air for you to hit with Cursed Roman Fire (Cervantes's Critical Edge). This means that replacing aB with your CE places your opponent in a grounded stun state much closer than the CE variation of Combo4 does (more on that in Combo4's section). While the timing for the combo varies, the CE variation of Combo2 allows you to follow up with a guaranteed Killer X Crawler (9B+K), catapulting the damage of your combo into the 120+ range. The best news is that 9B+K has so many active frames that it will tech-catch an opponent who techs, and it will hit them grounded if they just stay on the ground and block or roll. If the 9B+K hits as a tech-catch, then the combo does 139+ damage!

Of course, the downside to Combo2 is that the window in which you must input your iGDR is much more strict than in Combo1, and due to the nature of two-button slide inputs, it can be very difficult to time the ending aB as well. Inputting the iGDR too late to relaunch still leaves you with a 78+ damage combo (and leave you Back Towards), which is still quite respectable. As mentioned earlier, the CE variation of this combo will knock your opponent a variable distance from Cervantes depending on their height in the air, so getting the 9B+K followup consistently may require even more precise timing. You may be able to replace 9B+K with the faster 44K or the more range-y iGDR/4B BE, although I have yet to test these options (it's finals week). Finally, one can instead place the Critical Edge just after the 8B+K, a useful variation further discussed in the paragraph on Combo4.

Combo3 is certainly our most damaging option, giving about 10 more points of damage than other alternatives, along with having two chances to Clean Hit instead of just one. The obvious downside is the higher execution barrier of not only having to perform two iGDRs in a row, but having to do so with much tighter timing than is present in Combo1. As both this combo as Combo2 end in a quick moves with a long recovery time, I would assume that both combos allow similar Okizme opportunities for Cervantes (as in, "not much but better than nothing") although this combo does leave him Back Towards his opponent, unlike Combo2. It should be noted that, according to http://goo.gl/u2WVA there exists a Critical Edge variation of this combo, much like for Combo2, in which a CE is appended after the last iGDR. I have not, sadly, been able to reproduce this myself, so it may be character-dependent, and I am unable to test if there are any guaranteed followup to the CE, short of another CE (according to payopayo8484's video, a guaranteed followup seems unlikely). While it seems unlikely that one would consider this meter expenditure "worth it", it could still mean the difference between winning a round and giving your opponent another chance, and thus the option still provides utility (assuming that the execution of the CE variation of this combo is even match-viable). Still, the fantastic meterless damage of Combo3 seems to heavily suggest it, even taking the execution barrier into account.

Combo4 is that good 'ol standby of a combo that you could do with your eyes closed. It's the least damaging of our combos, sure, but it get's the job done and has one thing that none of the other guys have: a complete lack of iGDR (a complete lack of any execution barrier overall, to be honest). When your opponent is low on life and you've landed a 3B, it's time to follow up with Combo4 instead of, say, Combo3. More importantly, Combo4 gives you the best Okizme out of all four of our options, leaving the opponent on the ground right in front of Cervantes, and giving you enough frames of advantage to have a decent number of options, too. Furthermore, the 2A+B can be replaced with a second 3B if you'd like to add a great deal of knock-back to the combo, trading your Okizme for spacing (useful if you're trying to keep a close-range opponent out). Note that at extreme-tip range of 3B, the 2A+B will whiff and the second 3B becomes necessary.

One extremely important variation of this combo, mentioned above in the paragraph on Combo2, is following the 8B+K with Cursed Roman Fire (your Critical Edge) instead of with 2A+B. Because this variation of the combo causes the CE to hit the opponent so high in the air, it causes then to travel an almost unbelievable distance, most while airborne. That last fact is important, as the CE variation of Combo4 can ring-out from a very good distance, and even cause wall-splats from a good distance as well. While a discussion of Cervantes's wall combos is beyond the scope of this post, suffice to say that achieving a wall-splat using the CE variation of Combo4 is meter well-spent.

RingOut followups to the 3B launcher exist as well, and bear adding to your repertoire. While the vanilla version of Combo4 will ring out (over low walls even) when you opponent's back is close to the ring edge, and the CE variation of Combo4 will ring out from a good distance, Cervantes can ring out to his left and right after a 3B as well. As Heisenberg mentioned in post #12 of the "Under-used moves" thread, 3B followed by Surprise Wave (bA slide input) will very effectively ring out to Cervantes's front-left. Following 3B with a short step forward and then Storm Generate (b2 slide input) will effectively ring out to Cervantes's back-right. Both of these moves will successfully wall-splat in their given directions as well, although the forced autoGI after Surprise Wave means that you can't get much more then a 2A+B off of it (resulting in a combo only slightly more damaging than Combo4).

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So... thoughts? I've done some thinking (obviously) and I've made my conclusion about which combo offers the most overall utility/reliability etc. However, I'm extremely curious as to all of your thoughts on the matter! I know everybody's got their own favorite 3B combos and decisions, and I really wanna hear what everyone has to say. I will, of course, update this thread with any salient points anyone brings up (and corrections or new technology!) so keep it flowing :-)
 
Nice post. Very informative and well thought.

I really find it goes down to taste. Some people get used to a certain variation and they stick to it making the execution quite easier. Combo1 is now my main choice, it simply has everything, 83+ dmg, RO/Wallsplat properties and beast wakeup game.

My second option is combo3 when I'm going for the kill.

Like I said, it goes down to taste as the four are great. I just find the two I mentioned the most useful for my game.
 
That pretty much covers all the useful 3B followups, good stuff there. It's worth mentioning that 3B, 8B+K, 3B has nearly as much pushback as 3B, 8B+K, CE, which is significant because ending with a CE sends the opponent MILES. It's just hard to tell because ypu move forward so much yourself. You can't wallsplat by ending with 3B, but it's good because not many of Cervantes' moves/combos push the opponent straight back a good distance so it is useful for positioning.

My iGDR based 3B combo of choice is definitely 3B, iGDR, b2, for the following reasons:

1)It's the easiest option, only one iGDR with the biggest input window to do it in by quite a way.

2)Best overall damage option compared IMO. Only 4 points less damage than 3B, 8B+K, iGDR, aB and 9 less than 3B, iGDR, iGDR. 83 damage is more than 1/3 life, many characters dream of having a meterless b&b that does that much. Then, if you guess correctly as to whether or not they tech, 110 damage minimum. This guess is in your favour. Definitely worth the chance of a slightly lower minimum damage.

3) Definitely the best oki game afterwards. iGDR and aB recover slowly so you can't do much after ending a combo with either of them. Ending with b2 leaves you in a great position with loads of options to really hurt the opponent. Ending with aB allows for the reset, but it does that every time (unless they press nothing) and the opponent gets on to it pretty quickly.

4) Gives you the option to end with slightly delayed CE, 9B+K. Sure, the timing for CE after 3B, 8B+K, iGDR is braindead but that combo is harder overall for the same damage.

Besides 3B, iGDR, b2, I use:

3B, 8B+K, 3B for pushback, aB for reset or 2A+B for oki

3B, 8B+K, CE for front ringout/wallsplat from really far away!

3B, bA (rings out REALLY well to the left) or 3B, b2 (rings out well pretty much directly to the right). By the way, does anyone else find it tricky to remember which way each move rings out in the heat of the moment? I do it by looking at Cervantes. bA rings out towards his big manly chest, b2 towards his back.
 
I use 3B, 8B+K, iGDR, aB most of the time.

This Combo gives the most Meter of all, especially the Gunshot adds quite some meter, so anytime yu are at around 75% meter you should go for this one, since you will pass 100% during the combo and then can continue with the CE into 9B+K followup.

But i like iGDR into b2 also...
 
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