Dead or Alive 5 Ultimate

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

You said, "Large update maybe coming in October? I hope so, Helena and Rachel are really strong." It was implied you thought Helena and Rachel needed to be nerfed. Mentioning them and saying they're really strong doesn't necessarily convey you wanting to buff everyone else.

But i didn´t say that they are OP either. ;)

You can still play Ein according to your own "personal playstile", you just won't be as effective because of your stubbornness. If you don't know what's so special about adaptation then you're not playing fighting games properly. Adaptation is the essence of competitive fighting games. Adapt or die.

"Adapt or die"... I am sorry to say this, but fighting games are not only about adaptation. Heck, how could i win tournaments if it was all about adaptation?

Giving everyone lows like Helena would turn the game into a Low spamfest and would defeat the point of Helena's individuality. Helena's strong but she's not OP (though her BKO duck is fucking annoying) and is perfectly fine offline. If you're having trouble against her, you're probably having trouble against other characters too. On the otherhand, Helena is unbearable to fight in lag though.

It´s a difference if you loose and it is because the other player is just plain better or if he is winning because his character has advantages that are maybe to strong. And that applies to most peolpe who use Helena imo. I am not convinced by their skill, but by the abilities that character has.

... Okay, first off: if your personal playstyle is efficient and exactly how you want to play your character, you're horribly lucky.

Otherwise, your opinion is yours alone. Adapting to the game allows you to try and keep up with the best of the best, especially if you're a character loyalist. How do you think the greats like Rikuto and Master keep in the Top 8 with the characters they have fielded since their earlier days? They adapted their styles to fit with their character's good tech in the current game.

In the end, though, it's your call. Do what you want.

I am a "character loyalist" through and through. Used Ein since DOA2 and was very strong in DOA4 with him. Maybe I am just not interested in DOA nowadays in general.

 

[Ninjaguy446]

But i didn´t say that they are OP either. ;)




"Adapt or die"... I am sorry to say this, but fighting games are not only about adaptation. Heck, how could i win tournaments if it was all about adaptation?


It´s a difference if you loose and it is because the other player is just plain better or if he is winning because his character has advantages that are maybe to strong. And that applies to most peolpe who use Helena imo. I am not convinced by their skill, but by the abilities that character has.

The way you worded it made it sound otherwise, buy whatever.

Actually, that's exactly what happens during tournaments, especially for DOA. You play only two matches so you have one match to adapt to your opponent or else you die. Adapt or die.
Basically goes for any fighting game.

So, in your eyes, anyone who uses Helena is not actually good but is only beating you because Helena has some good tools? Kthanks

 

[Force_of_Nature]

I give up. I truly, truly, truly give up.

I'm punished for trying to vary my attacks and I'm rewarded for constant repetition of the same moves. I am not learning and neither are the players I play against. None of them try to slow escape or block, they just hold, at random points and swing through the air constantly. Or the simply spam strings on a blocking opponent for minutes on end.

I punish, I pull off 50% combos, I repeatedly use the same exact move every time, and they eat it, every time, and they hold every time.

If I try to vary my attacks. If I try to do something new in the match, if I change strategies or doing something unexpected, it is defeated every time. The players simply don't care, and I have no idea how to make them care.

I can see entire strategies for some players at the B rank level in my sleep. I know when exactly they'll do it, they've practically got it down to habit. And yet every time I punish it and every time I win the match and every time we match up again, they continue to use the same strategies and they simply will not work. And I have to deal with them in a very specific fashion, that's not helping me learn or improve. And I'm not sure if I can get it through their skulls that what they're doing isn't going to work on me.

I guess, that in and of itself, would be what I should try to do; find ways to make them look at what I'm doing and take notice. But I'm not sure that's the right kind of learning. I don't think know enough of the character(s) that I do play that I might be able to do something to completely and utter dominate against them. All I know is if I continue to fight them as I do now, I will not improve and I will end up developing bad habits that will be difficult to get rid of.

Maybe I should play a character I'm completely unfamiliar with to get some more perspective. Although there are few I truly like. Or handicap myself with the characters I do play by forbidding myself from using the moves I use often to punish. I can't say for certain. All I can say is, these players I fight against I will always lose to unless I fight them a certain way. And I want to improve and I want them to realize that the tactics they use won't work against me ( or least shouldn't, yet I continue to be caught off guard by their lack of understanding).

You're going about this the wrong way. You're getting frustrated because your opponents are not playing the way you want them to play. They have no reason to play your way if they're beating you with their "playstyle". And likewise, you're supposed to be using what works. If the opponent doesn't ADAPT, that's great for you and tough shit for them.

In a tournament, I have absolutely have no problem fighting people that don't adapt. It's a Free win for me! However, online, I don't really care to play people that don't put much thought into their actions because it's detrimental to my overall playstyle (not to mention that Ayane is a pain in the ass to use properly online). Take d3v & Rikuto's advice and fight better competition. If you can seek out an offline scene that you can realistically get to regularly, then do that! DOA is amazing offline. You never think about lag tactics and only think about your actions and your opponent's actions.

Stop fighting stupid scrubs and fight competent opponents. You will still lose, but it will be much more beneficial for developing your skills.

i just got 3rd place at Wednesday Night Fights and i just bs'd my way through most of the brackets using bread and butter combos with Momiji. not to mention that i haven't played or practiced the game in about 2-3 weeks. but either way i say my rusty Mila got me through 1/3 of the brackets. and Momiji the rest. i wish i would have practiced before the tourney but there aren't any games at work. :P

Congratulations dude! Hope you had fun! Momiji can be a bit annoying to fight at the moment because her pokes are so darn good but she's also quite new like Rachel. Good luck in future competitions!

 

[Ishimaru Jinrai]

When is the next patch update coming out??? =D I am so betting it has a Rachel nerf.. Not that it bothers me, she is a fun character to use.

 

[0VincentRayne0]

When is the next patch update coming out??? =D I am so betting it has a Rachel nerf.. Not that it bothers me, she is a fun character to use.

Wait. Hold up. Put the phone down. Heel the dog. Shut the front door.

Did I read that Rachel is "fun to use"? That must be a typo. Either that or someone came out of playing a play station 1 fighting video game where that had like 8 moves. Cause that's what Rachel is like now. Use about 10 moves or less to get results. If Rachel is fun to use than characters like Pai,kasumi, and lei fang must be the equivalent to going to six flags, Disneyland, And knotts berry farm all on Halloween and Christmas on the same day!

 

[Ishimaru Jinrai]

Wait. Hold up. Put the phone down. Heel the dog. Shut the front door.

Did I read that Rachel is "fun to use"? That must be a typo. Either that or someone came out of playing a play station 1 fighting video game where that had like 8 moves. Cause that's what Rachel is like now. Use about 10 moves or less to get results. If Rachel is fun to use than characters like Pai,kasumi, and lei fang must be the equivalent to going to six flags, Disneyland, And knotts berry farm all on Halloween and Christmas on the same day!

Nope I main Christie and Kasumi. =D

Rachel is fun to use because she's so simple, free wins.

 

[CappuccinoJak]

Use about 10 moves or less to get results.

isn't that like every fighting game character ever made ever?

 

[DrakeAldan]

When is the next patch update coming out???

Sometime this month... It seems it will come with a bunch of Halloween-themed DLC.

Hopefully it does come with a Rachel nerf. I want to go back.

Jacky is nice but it feels like I'm missing something. Also, the YEAAAAH is still in a can because they didn't redo the voices for VF characters (but they didn't put the swoosh sound on all of the full circular attacks? Come on.)


Gen Fu seems pretty cool but he's Original Blender which defeats the point of picking him up...

If Rachel is fun to use than characters like Pai,kasumi, and lei fang must be the equivalent to going to six flags, Disneyland, And knotts berry farm all on Halloween and Christmas on the same day!

Do you not like Mitsu either? :|

 

[Ishimaru Jinrai]

Sometime this month... It seems it will come with a bunch of Halloween-themed DLC.

Hopefully it does come with a Rachel nerf. I want to go back.

Thanks! >:D And I at least hope they release some compatibility pack so people who haven't bought the DLC can still view it when you fight them. It's sort of lame buying new costumes and not being able to show them off other than to yourself.. =P

 

[0VincentRayne0]

isn't that like every fighting game character ever made ever?

Not fully. There are some characters that have to utilize around 80% of their move list at least to use very effectively.

Nope I main Christie and Kasumi. =D

Rachel is fun to use because she's so simple, free wins.

Ah. It seems your definition of fun is different then mine.

Do you not like Mitsu either? :|

Hell no! :D

 

[ZOo00OOm]

Hey guys, I was thinking about picking up a new fighter and this has been on my list for quite some time now. How does this game play? Is it similar to Tekken (I hate that wave-dashing bullshit) or does it play like VF or SoulCal?

 

[Ishimaru Jinrai]

Hey guys, I was thinking about picking up a new fighter and this has been on my list for quite some time now. How does this game play? Is it similar to Tekken (I hate that wave-dashing bullshit) or does it play like VF or SoulCal?

It's a blend between VF and Tekken mostly, juggles of course give you the highest damage output, the game relies heavily on Counters, there by reading your opponents moves if they're being too predictable. (The juggles aren't as long, and annoying as you'd find in Tekken.) You get a special meter when you are less than half health, so you're capable of doing a Power Blow, or a Power Launcher.

Obviously that's just the basics, read Rikuto's posts for everything.. =D

 

[Force_of_Nature]

Wait. Hold up. Put the phone down. Heel the dog. Shut the front door.

Did I read that Rachel is "fun to use"? That must be a typo. Either that or someone came out of playing a play station 1 fighting video game where that had like 8 moves. Cause that's what Rachel is like now. Use about 10 moves or less to get results. If Rachel is fun to use than characters like Pai,kasumi, and lei fang must be the equivalent to going to six flags, Disneyland, And knotts berry farm all on Halloween and Christmas on the same day!

Sometimes using characters with small movelists can be fun because it keeps things straightforward so you can focus on the match more instead of input execution. For instance I find Rachel fun to play in DOA5U and Pyrrha fun to play in SCV because they're straightforward and effective. On the otherhand I don't find Brad Wong and his 200+ moves or Viola to be fun because of how awkward it is using them.

 

[Xernuht]

Sometimes using characters with small movelists can be fun because it keeps things straightforward so you can focus on the match more instead of input execution. For instance I find Rachel fun to play in DOA5U and Pyrrha fun to play in SCV because they're straightforward and effective. On the otherhand I don't find Brad Wong and his 200+ moves or Viola to be fun because of how awkward it is using them.

Whereas I find Brad fun and effective because of his long-ass moveset. There's no way anyone's going to remember how to beat everything he throws at you. Viola's still weird. That said, I mostly play Momiji because she's got fewer moves, but they're almost all effective in some ways.

 

[0VincentRayne0]

Whereas I find Brad fun and effective because of his long-ass moveset. There's no way anyone's going to remember how to beat everything he throws at you. Viola's still weird. That said, I mostly play Momiji because she's got fewer moves, but they're almost all effective in some ways.

Viola is weird because she's a character with 2D mechanics put in a 3D game.

 

[Ishimaru Jinrai]

Viola is weird because she's a character with 2D mechanics put in a 3D game.

She's a MvC3 / Tekken tag character all in one, she can juggle you around, mid/low mix-up stuns into launchers, and use meter to keep you in the air longer! Lol, I have some of the most epic matches against Viola players, after getting up from her devastating 50% damage combos and taking the round, it's rewarding!

 

[DrakeAldan]

How does this game play? Is it similar to Tekken (I hate that wave-dashing bullshit) or does it play like VF or SoulCal?

DOA is roughly based on VF (hence the VF guest characters). DOA tends to have worse frames on normal hit when it comes to frame advantage, however. There's a lot of fishing for counterhits.

DOA's holds are a way to stop your opponent from using the same move over and over again (well, you can still stop people from doing that in other games, but in DOA it's more "direct"). In my opinion it makes things a little more dynamic... but you'll still be repeating things, just not so blatantly.

The game revolves around the Triangle System; strikes beat throws, throws beat holds, holds beat strikes. i.e. "Rock Paper Scissors". Using the Triangle System properly usually grants you 150% damage. An interesting thing to note is that the startup frames of strikes are invincible to throws (period!- no matter how slow the attack). This last fact also makes advantage and disadvantage feel "fluid"- if you are blocking at disadvantage (a natural reflex) and your enemy goes to throw you, the only way to counter (since command throws are unbreakable in this game) is to attack at disadvantage, even if it's severe disadvantage.

DOA has "Critical Stun", which is its form of frame advantage (usually granted on counterhit). In Critical Stun you can't block, attack, or move, but throws won't be effective on you (at least until you leave stun). You can stagger escape (a la SCIV/VF/etc.) or Critical Hold (basically a hold with greater recovery and less damage) to get out of situations. Your opponent can "stun > launch" which is basically getting frame advantage and then launching you for a mini-combo, or they can take the risk of you holding them to go for more damage.

It's important to know the Triangle System since your throws are what's going to be keeping people's holds in check. If you focus on combos too much, especially keeping your opponent in stun too long, you'll eventually be interrupted by a hold.

Backdash cancel is in the game, but it's like SC backdash cancel (44-214214214...) You can wavedash, but you don't need to. Moving isn't a complete pain like Tekken. Freestep (sort of like 8-way-run) is fairly effective for moving around the arena depending on your character.

It's a weird little game but the rules are consistent so you can indeed skill up. The game forces you to get in the other guy's head, so playing it will probably make you naturally better at reading or analyzing opponents on the fly.



Really the only thing is if you like the characters or not. I'm not crazy about half the cast (lot of girls with bad attitudes...) but if you like someone you see, you should probably go for it.

There's a bigger community on Xbox, too.

 

[Ishimaru Jinrai]

There's a bigger community on Xbox, too.

That's good to hear, do you play on PSN also? I checked on gamefaqs and seemed like the PSN DOA5 Ultimate board was a lot more active then the Xbox side. There are about 5,000 ranked registered players on solo match on DOA5 Ultimate, and about 1,500 on Tag team.

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

The way you worded it made it sound otherwise, buy whatever.

OK, i give you that. But i already made clear that it wasn´t meant that way.

Actually, that's exactly what happens during tournaments, especially for DOA. You play only two matches so you have one match to adapt to your opponent or else you die. Adapt or die.
Basically goes for any fighting game.

So, in your eyes, anyone who uses Helena is not actually good but is only beating you because Helena has some good tools? Kthanks

Imo it is almost impossbile to adapt only during 2 fights. Players with very good yomi/mind skills can do that yes, but they are rare from my experience.

DOA was and is imo very extreme when it comes to mind and guessing games. Much more than SC or Tekken.

And no, this time i made myself very clear... I said "most people who use Helena..." not anyone.

 

[Windstar]

You're going about this the wrong way. You're getting frustrated because your opponents are not playing the way you want them to play. They have no reason to play your way if they're beating you with their "playstyle". And likewise, you're supposed to be using what works. If the opponent doesn't ADAPT, that's great for you and tough shit for them.

In a tournament, I have absolutely have no problem fighting people that don't adapt. It's a Free win for me! However, online, I don't really care to play people that don't put much thought into their actions because it's detrimental to my overall playstyle (not to mention that Ayane is a pain in the ass to use properly online). Take d3v & Rikuto's advice and fight better competition. If you can seek out an offline scene that you can realistically get to regularly, then do that! DOA is amazing offline. You never think about lag tactics and only think about your actions and your opponent's actions.

Stop fighting stupid scrubs and fight competent opponents. You will still lose, but it will be much more beneficial for developing your skills.

I'm not sure if I am ready to move on to better competition, if I'm having trouble with these players. The thing is, I know I can beat them. I know exactly what moves they're doing and when and I know exactly what the weaknesses are. And yet, I'm unable to beat them because I get in my head that I need to vary my attacks to keep them guessing and it never works on them. I have play a very specific way to beat them and I'm having trouble adapting to it.

I'll punish a player using Brad's 2H+KK then 66P for the CB into a combo. 66P will get held often so I end up switching to just repeating 2H+KK, they hold mid, so I repeat the process three or four times until the critical stun knocks them down. Then I punish them again with 2H+KK and go in for 66P, they hold and I get punished. And I think its my fault (and it is) that I thought they would stop doing that.

There's this Lisa player that always opens up with 1PP and always varies with 1PKKK. If the distance is too great, its 1PP. I block, I punish, they keep doing it. Fine, great, I'll keep punishing. But I don't want to sit there just punishing it. I want to move into the offensive but I can't find ways of getting into that when the opponent is so recklessly stupid (and 1PP is a hard move to deal with since it can be used as a defensive tool). I don't know Momiji or Brad well enough to deal with the move or simply anticipate it. I know Kokoro can't really do much against it at close range (33P or sidestep P are about the only things that can handle it), but since I'm trying to learn Momiji, I would like to be able to stop 1PP before it starts and I'm not exactly sure how I can do that yet.

Basically, I know what the players are going to do, I know how to punish it, but I don't really know how to anticipate it and stop it from happening before it starts. I want to beat their stupid stuff, more than just punishing it, but by not playing a specific way to do it, but the way I want to do it. I want to cut off the head before it starts breathing fire.

i just got 3rd place at Wednesday Night Fights and i just bs'd my way through most of the brackets using bread and butter combos with Momiji. not to mention that i haven't played or practiced the game in about 2-3 weeks. but either way i say my rusty Mila got me through 1/3 of the brackets. and Momiji the rest. i wish i would have practiced before the tourney but there aren't any games at work. :P

am i the only one that thought of shortening Momiji's name and have only come up with Mom? it just keeps coming to me.

Momiji's name is related to maple trees or red leaves. Its generally symbolic with autumn So if you wanted to give her a pet name or a nick name. You could always call her red, autumn, or maple (syrup).