Devolved

[Organous]

Politics

Ok, it's official. We as a community have devolved to the point where we are politically divided over bans.

Conservative: Real conservatives oppose change. Thus the conservatives are those who are against character bans or in any way playing outside of the game's programmed rules/options. Namco already changed the game by releasing this new chapter, so banning anything is a change from that. I think an appropriate title would be Purists.

Liberal: Liberals, aka progressives, have a "fluid" perspective, and are more welcome to changing things. They believe that all games are merely toolboxes and it is up to the players to use those tools to custom-tailor the game through the players' filter. For this side, I dub thee Craftsmen.

We are now so entrenched in our ban views that we basically have to pick a side. We are now officially divided in half. I am a hard Purist, and I think Sirlin would fit that title, as well.

 

[Thane]

Moderate. I just can't get over SC2 days I guess. SC tourneys for Sc characters only.

You want to be the King Darth Vader player? The ultimate yoda? Online. oh, and have fun there.

 

[Organous]

Explain to how banning an entire section is moderate.

 

[ChaCha]

I think you are getting carried away with your antidisestablishmenterrionism.

 

[ZDamned]

I love your "toolbox" metaphore, as other very established games in professional leagues have drastically changed up rules. Take Counter-Strike for example. You can't have a tournament without specific modifications to the server and the games rules, or else the game would be tournament the the moment you finish installing it. Round Timers, Maps, Point systems, all need to be calculated differently in competative play.
When an over powered character, or a tool that requires far less work is introduced... some times it is only there for the purpose of extended play such as Speical mode. If a Character on the other hand was meant for that mode (Bonus and what not) then it's only proper that they be categorized accordingly. We do random level select, or else it would always be player 1 picks the stage. We do winner keeps his character or else it becomes a game of counter choice. The game has no built in Tournament mode, so we had to create it. Moderation is thusly required. Technically Ivy's infinite pre patch should be legal to the "purists" because namco put it there, right?

 

[PhilBond]

Maybe this is faint praise, but I just want to step off-topic and comment as someone who took a very long time to give up on caliburforum.com:

Even as petty as you could call this argument at times, with the multi-threadness and the anger and the bull-headedness, I'm sincerely impressed with the level of discourse at 8wayrun.com. Again, maybe this is a pathetic commentary on my bad taste in message boards, but I've never had so much fun talking Calibur on Internets. Cheers.

Back on topic: this thread might go wierd ways, but the poll itself is very interesting.

 

[E.C]

Even as petty as you could call this argument at times, with the multi-threadness and the anger and the bull-headedness, I'm sincerely impressed with the level of discourse at 8wayrun.com.

Hey guy. Fuck you!

antidisestablishmenterrionism

antidisestablishmentarianism. And no, I didn't look it up, cuz I'm smarts!


As for the topic, I'm an apathetic voter who bucks the system.

 

[Organous]

I love your "toolbox" metaphore, as other very established games in professional leagues have drastically changed up rules. Take Counter-Strike for example. You can't have a tournament without specific modifications to the server and the games rules, or else the game would be tournament the the moment you finish installing it. Round Timers, Maps, Point systems, all need to be calculated differently in competative play.
When an over powered character, or a tool that requires far less work is introduced... some times it is only there for the purpose of extended play such as Speical mode. If a Character on the other hand was meant for that mode (Bonus and what not) then it's only proper that they be categorized accordingly. We do random level select, or else it would always be player 1 picks the stage. We do winner keeps his character or else it becomes a game of counter choice. The game has no built in Tournament mode, so we had to create it. Moderation is thusly required. Technically Ivy's infinite pre patch should be legal to the "purists" because namco put it there, right?

Actually, I'd argue that any patches released are considered to be the new base as if it was already part of the game, because the game designers did it. I suppose what you suggest would be a more hardcore line, though.

The point I'm trying to make here is that every element of a political discussion is at work here.
* Immovable opinions
* Debate over what the issues even are
* Personal attacks
* Some very rational and irrational statements (both sides)
* The desire to end partisanship
* The inevitable vote by those in power (TO's)

Face it. We're divided and polarized beyond compromise, For greater justice, I've been posting through my Wii the past few hours! Wii want SC4!!!

 

[ZDamned]

Actually, I'd argue that any patches released are considered to be the new base as if it was already part of the game, because the game designers did it. I suppose what you suggest would be a more hardcore line, though.

The point I'm trying to make here is that every element of a political discussion is at work here.
* Immovable opinions
* Debate over what the issues even are
* Personal attacks
* Some very rational and irrational statements (both sides)
* The desire to end partisanship
* The inevitable vote by those in power (TO's)

Face it. We're divided and polarized beyond compromise, For greater justice, I've been posting through my Wii the past few hours! Wii want SC4!!!

I actually didn't add in a little bit to the end of what I said. I emant for it to worded: Purists would have not banned the Invinite that Ivy had before the game was patched. Meaning at the time of the game's state, it would be legal. I agree with you 100%.

 

[Organous]

On that note, personally, my instinct says to OK it, but I'd have to evaluate it overall. Basically, if it is easy to initiate and continue, difficult to avoid, universal (off-subject, that makes Yoda better if it can't work), and basically unanswerable if spammed, I'll favor a ban BUT of the whole character. I absolutely oppose maneuver bans because then you'll get too many arbitrary rulings.

 

[Tiamat]

Ok, it's official. We as a community have devolved to the point where we are politically divided over bans.

Conservative: Real conservatives oppose change.

Lol we actually do need something like this for easy reference. However I DO NOT like the way you word the conservative stance. One could view the new characters in danger of being banned as "change" which people are not willing to deal with, but the "liberals" obviously no not support them. For this reason I think it's best if you make it VERY clear that you are talking about BANS and bans only.

I like your terms though, craftsmen sounds funny but is fitting.

I get the general idea you are putting forth though, so it should be obvious what I'm gonna put down.

 

[arstal]

Ok, it's official. We as a community have devolved to the point where we are politically divided over bans.


We are now so entrenched in our ban views that we basically have to pick a side. We are now officially divided in half. I am a hard Purist, and I think Sirlin would fit that title, as well.

Sigh. Sirlin is NOT a hard purist.

I hate it when purists misquote him. That was like Stalin misquoting Karl Marx. or G-Dub misquoting Milton Friedman.

 

[Organous]

Everything I've read suggests that he would be. How is Sirlin not Purist?
EDIT: I've updated the Purist definition.

 

[arstal]

Look at his STHD design and how he nerfed one character outright, as well as other nerfs. He also thought ST Akuma should be banned.

I'm not saying he'd ban a lot, but he would support some bans.

 

[Tiamat]

arstal: you do realize that ST akuma is literally unbeatable right? (in original version, not HD remix of course)

look how often Japan bans characters, it's pretty damn rare. if they do it you know it's gotta be pretty retarded. I think china is similar but not sure. I do know that KOF2003's Duolon was banned from tournament play, because he was prettymuch unbeatable. When he has 3 different infinites, and can infinite off a fast, safe low poke, AND a grab, and he has amazing pokes, amazing pressure, and a teleport with virtually zero recovery time, that's just too much. Oh and I need to mention these infinities are not super hard and would happen in matches often. The difficulty of infinites does matter. If the infinite is so hard that even players with amazing execution can't do it consistently, it is really not much of a problem.

I'm just saying there is a point where it's just way too retarded for anyone sane to keep it allowed. We are talking extreme cases of one character who just rapes the rest of the cast for free though, so keep that in mind.

 

[iKotomi]

Lol at trying to compare ST Akuma to YODA...

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

Hey guy. Fuck you!

dammit...you beat me to it.!!

back on topic....im personally tired of all the ban arguments. people have legitament arguments for each side. so im mostly undecided. I think im more purist. I think i voted for something else though. If its in the game, that means the tool is there in my toolbox. If said characters are pieces of shit then they will fade out in time anyway. Let that happen naturally. But if a character is specific advantages, there has to be a defense or offense for it. I dont see any major advantages or disadvantages with any character that another character might have a tool to counter it. "you cant grab yoda" then dont grab yoda, "algols bubbles block the camera." thats sounds like a disadvantage to him as well........

so blah blah blah.....just shut up and play already!!

 

[Thane]

I consider it moderate in that Algol, who I don't question at all, should stay in. SW and Algol seem to be our only choices. poor ones.

In the end i guess for me its not about anything other then a personal preference that I have. Bonus characters are nice But i LOVE the SC universe and the characters that belong there. The whole adding people in from different games is so weird anyway and is now a direct marketing ploy.

I guess to be honest w/ myself, im arguing from purist standpoint. Pure in the sense that its SC only and the bells and whistles are simply that. Flashy stuff added on to get people not in SC, into SC.

Other then that it doesn't matter to me.

 

[Tiamat]

I guess to be honest w/ myself, im arguing from purist standpoint. Pure in the sense that its SC only and the bells and whistles are simply that. Flashy stuff added on to get people not in SC, into SC.

Yeah I thought of that too, people wanting star wars characters banned likely see them as tarnishing the purity of the SC series. Makes me wonder about using the name "Purist" but I guess as long as we know what it implies it's all good.

 

[LKV]

well if you view soul calibur historically, then it seems to me that the impurities would be the SW characters, and maybe Algol since he's a projectile-having boss character. the conservative account is usually something along the lines "stick with what we know, don't mess with tradition", which would definitely not include SW characters, what with their force gauges and shenanigans and shiny swords and alternate-universe stages.

liberals are more welcome to change in things, not necessarily changing things. but yeah, your definitions, your poll.