Into prep analysis

Discussion in 'Raphael' started by NGKrush, Feb 2, 2012.

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  1. NGKrush

    NGKrush [02] Apprentice

    With the framedata at our feet it's good to get a list of all and strong options a raph player has when moving to prep.
    Some moves are not possible to hit-confirm leading you into prep on guard.
    What is possible from each move on hit/block? This thread is not only about the frames, but also about distances , evasiveness of prep and the options that are available vs specific characters depending on their range and fast options to counter this stance.

    Legenda:
    -MOVE / block / hit
    -----------------------------------------------
    6A(B) (also prep A(B)) / -3 / +9


    6B(B) / -4 / +10

    3(B) / 0 / +14
    ON BLOCK:

    ON HIT:
    **at close/mid range
    -guaranteed prepAB = -4
    -guaranteed prepA(B)

    **at mid/far range
    -guaranteed prepBB = 0
    -guaranteed prepB(B)

    4(B) / -2 / STN

    66(B) / +7 / STN
    ON BLOCK:

    ON HIT:
    -guaranteed prepA+B (..dmg)

    44A(B) / -2 / +10

    prep B(B) / -3 / +10


    -----------------------------------------------
    Please post & discuss your findings and I'll collect them in the top post. Over time I'll do a better layout, depending on the wants and needs of the info given.
  2. NGKrush

    NGKrush [02] Apprentice

    to start the discussion: I believe that 4(B) spaced well could still keep prepBB as a viable counter-hitter as most players fast 12/13frame moves would whiff. this would depend on the character of course.
  3. darkfender

    darkfender [07] Duelist

    well excluding CE the SE mixup would prevent them to use high and 4 aGI tu use mid verticals....
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    piggy RIP Team Edward

    PSN:
    dmg_piggy
    After 4(B) (block), Prep BB hits i13, which seems to be pretty fast for this game.

    6A seems like it could be a good tool to help against step. Doesn't guarantee anything on hit, but only -3 on block which puts Prep BB at i14 which will lose to some basic fast attacks, but should beat most "punisher" type moves.

    Another item of note is that if Prep B(B) or A(B) hit (+10 and +9 respectively), SE K should be generally un-interruptable (moves that are M/L i11 / 12 would clash, but off the top of my head, I don't know any moves with these properties except some CE possibly) and is safe-ish at -13. SE A is even on block for a safe "reset" after a hit on Prep A(B) or B(B) (into 6BB would be beat most non-step options).
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    WuHT Premium Moderator

    PSN:
    Trolt
    I don't like using 6A(B) as a random prep entry (rather, I agree that it should be part of an attempted step kill), as the 2nd hit is crouchable if the 1st is blocked. However, given the speed of prep4 (haven't tested the active frames) you can train your opponent to do their iwrB/3B or some other mid hitting vertical and punish accordingly.

    And by "accordingly", I mean you could get a 30 damage from prep6A(B) or go for the SE A which seems to be guaranteed if the opponent hits your aGI frames late, while they can block if it hits the aGI frames early.
  4. NGKrush

    NGKrush [02] Apprentice

    found a few new things today:
    4(b) is a really interesting move because you can connect it at many different distances, giving other options.
    4(b) to prep is -2, so when you are blocked and moves to prep you have limited options.
    but connecting 4(b) on it's tip in the same situation suddenly prep b and even prep k can become viable pressure options that interrupt opponents fastest counter attacks. it's a great position to be in because you are far enough to confirm their attack and pick a good option to counter it. combining that you don't have to go to prep in this situation leading to a range where most opponents moves whiff and raphs 4b, 44b, 6b, 22b, 22a, 33b, 66b all connect. even at -14 you won't get punished and have so many strong options.

    also at midrange (max. aa range) does 4(b) blocked give good options either when going to prep or not. 4a+b is one of them.

    44a(b) to prep on max range lets you interrupt with prep b, prep k and se a and se b are strong options (se k is out of range nearly always when connecting to prep moves on max range).

    all this stuff is prob character dependent, i tested on some fast ones like leixia and raph, but i'm sure options change a lot according to matchup.
    Fendante likes this.
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    piggy RIP Team Edward

    PSN:
    dmg_piggy
    BT B+K is the best option after 66A+B, I haven't been able to get anything else to hit after BT B, especially since this will allow them to air control.
  5. Black_Dog

    Black_Dog [09] Warrior

    What happened to the 66A+B, BT K, 66A combo ?
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    WuHT Premium Moderator

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    Trolt
    The "Combo thread" is elsewhere fellows. Just trying to help us stay organized as opposed to squashing productive discussion.

    So after 4(B), 6B(B) and 6A(B) setups, inputting 4 as soon as possible will GI pyrrhas' 236B.
    3(B) into prep4 cancels too fast, so the last aGI frame is likely i13. That doesn't give us hard numbers yet as I don't have a slower prep entry to test the earliest aGI frame.

    After landing an aGI (dont' know why my brain ignored its existence) you could
    1) prepA(B)
    2) SE A into mixups. I imagine that aGIing at the end of the aGI window = guaranteed hit while aGIing early in the mixup only leaves you on block.
    3) prepK -- probably the most optimal choice, as you get 28 damgae, and you can GRAB right after without being out of range (maybe it was a pyrrha blocking animation hitbox) for mixups after.
    4) prepK(BE) : using meter to tack on an additional 41 damage ? count me in!
  6. crow_winters

    crow_winters [11] Champion

    I wish prep GI would GI horziontals instead of verticals (2a's) Outside of 3B's godly +0 (the guide says that prep BB is i11 and that normal 6bb is i12, too. i haven't sat down to test this yet) I'm not really sure what to do to discourage 2A's.
  7. KowtowRobinson

    KowtowRobinson [10] Knight

    Honestly most 2A's can get swayed away from anywhere but point blank range in prep. Try to get a feel for it in practice mode, or just in matches, but you definitely sway down AND away a bit too. Depending on the frame situation, the backstep from prep 4 would also be sufficient.
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    WuHT Premium Moderator

    PSN:
    Trolt
    The problem with the backstep from the prep4 after avoiding a crouched opponent : now what ? Your two fastest "semi" safe mixups are high and your big prep K is sadly easily punished. Sure you can SE, but lets hope your opponent doesn't have an absurd wr game (like alpha pat)

    Sometimes i just keep backpeddling with repeated prep4, and I hope no body mistakes that as taunting.
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    piggy RIP Team Edward

    PSN:
    dmg_piggy
    I was playing against Pyrrha last night and she AKd me out of SE every time - I haven't had time to test it, but can anyone tell if this can be done on reaction? It seems likely, AK is i11, and the K probably comes out at, I dunno, 18 frames?
  8. Leonyx

    Leonyx [07] Duelist

    XBL:
    Leonyx3
    I think Prep K is safe at range (though, I have no idea how to test that). I feel like SE is the best option to get out of Prep because of the mix ups you have from it and the TC.
  9. Hudathan

    Hudathan [09] Warrior

    What move did you transition into SE with?
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    piggy RIP Team Edward

    PSN:
    dmg_piggy
    I don't recall probably 3(B) testing what can and can't be punished with it, but it could have been 6B(B).
  10. Hudathan

    Hudathan [09] Warrior

    Block or hit?
  11. Von_Blackhardt

    Von_Blackhardt [06] Combatant

    Can someone tell me what exactly prep's inherent aGI property is? It activated on a high kick of all things today.
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    WuHT Premium Moderator

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    Trolt
    o shit was it a vertical kick (like raph's own 66K)? Maybe thats what i should have tested, since the majority of kicks are considered horizontals.

    I'm not happy with the speed of SE before your attack will begin. Seems excessively long.
  12. JodorowskyVIII

    JodorowskyVIII [02] Apprentice

    In the official guide it's say 3(B) is +0 block/+14 Hit, and in the wiki it's +1 Block/+15 Hit.
    I must presume the wiki is right, no ?
    Because if it's the case, it's mean the lag time on SE before an attack come out is 20 Frames. :x

    Edit :( On another subject, did someone begin to test JG frames on raph moves ? I've done test on some moves, but it looks like it will take some times to have a complete list...)
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