SCV Yoshimitsu Q&A and General Discussion

Supa said:
Metronome in IV was only marginally more useful. I don't follow why people would think that it would be strong at high level play consistently.
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IFP was incredibly more useful in SC4 than in 5, and it was strong in high level play because it worked beyond mere gimmicks.

Supa said:
You had the option to IFP but it required a set-up.
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Most times you didn't have to set it up. People who played Yoshi an abundant amount acquired a natural inclination to look at the clock during juggles, stepping or even when blocking strings. The use of IFP thus became much like second nature. Quite similar to any other move in his arsenal. You weren't waiting for second 23 to use his strongest unblockable, you had a good grasp of what every time-move was and its uses in respect to your current situation. IFP presented Yoshi players with another level of thought process that most other players didn't necessarily need, and I loved it for that.

Supa said:
In the short, I think Metronome was being abused in IV. Possession in V seems to function more of the way it should have worked previously.
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Why shouldn't you abuse something that worked well but also required a good understanding of your character and his surrounding? Not to mention it was FUN... crazy fun.
Regarding your second point, well I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion. Though its stupid, honestly.
 
IFP was a unique strategy/skill/whathaveyou for Yoshimitsu players. It had very strong options that weren't entirely unpredictable and impossible to pull off. You can find tournament videos of the Helm Splitter walk that clearly shows players weren't having to bait, waste time or use some other gimmicky set-up to get the high kick. That's not the question.

Actually, let's find a tournament player that fought a Yoshimitsu using more than a few IFPs. The idea being the sentence you quoted has the words "strong at high level play consistently." Those are the qualifiers you should be arguing against. Otherwise, you're not even on topic.....

Senzait said:
Regarding your second point, well I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion. Though its stupid, honestly.
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Right. So based on the evidence we have (that is, it is no longer clock based) that clearly shows that the opinion (or speculation) is stupid. Good thought process. I like it.
 
I’m not sure if we’re on the same page anymore.

Nobody is arguing that the whole of IFP was ever important to high level play. That’s silly. Half of IFP was gimmicks, and some of IFP was even worse than useless.

I don’t speak for anyone but myself, but I think the point that Senzait et al were trying to make was that specific IFP moves were useful even in high-level SCIV play (crucially, because you could deliberately select them — it wasn’t a crapshoot). I specifically recall Lolo winning rounds multiple times with spinning uppercut. Whereas, SCV IFP is categorically useless for high-level play, since you cannot control it and a “wrong” result would very likely lead to punishment.

Speaking loosely, then, SCIV IFP is “suitable for high level play,” but SCV IFP isn’t.

Does anyone object to any of this? The only thing I don’t quite understand, Supa, is what you meant by IFP being “abused” in SCIV, and that SCV IFP is more of how it “should” be. Rather than make assumptions, I’d rather let you expand on this and reply afterwards.
 
Gabedamien said:
Does anyone object to any of this? The only thing I don’t quite understand, Supa, is what you meant by IFP being “abused” in SCIV, and that SCV IFP is more of how it “should” be. Rather than make assumptions, I’d rather let you expand on this and reply afterwards.
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Sounds good to me.

With the exception of very few IFP moves, none of them really had practical applications. Online, however, all the sudden they were unblockable and unavoidable (spinning uppercut delay, anyone?). One common use (helm splitter walk) probably should've been considered a bug early on....

Early in SCIV, tons of people would go on about how IFP was useless before they noticed the clock correlation. Then it became a matter of using the attacks that were more applicable, but generally it was about using the launchers or unblockables. You were guaranteed moves that were generally faster, launched higher, become unblockable, Horizonal+Vert GI, etc. Since they were clock based, there would be no reason for a good tournament player to remember to avoid eating a launch on x1, which direction to step an unblockable, etc.

Online was an even more ridiculous mess with people quite literally abusing the helmsplitter walk (I did....), the spinning uppercut (nearly impossible to get out of the way of.... online), etc. These techniques were nothing but exploits.

The IFP moves this time around are few and mostly decent unblockables. They are randomized, but Level 3 grants you a specific set that reduces the randomization of other levels. The charges are the key to using IFP effectively.

Rewinding to Soul Calibur 2 you should remember that IFP required a charge (Soul Siphon) and was random.

So let's review -
IFP received little tournament usage, even in SCIV
IFP had it's uses, but most of the results were really strong
IFP was great for online shennanigans
SCIV was clock based
SC2 was random
SCV is random

I think Metronome was abused in IV. I think it's *back to* the way it should be in V. Metronome was only marginally more useful in IV because it was very abusable.
 
Thanks for clarifying my point Gabe.


Lolo, Furzy and I believe Rddk all used IFP's consistently and efficiently in high level play. When I have time later I can try and find videos for you if you dont believe me. I never said they used all of them, I said that in general their application was VERY strong against any level of opponent.

Online is never a measure for anything. Ever. I thought you'd figure that out by now. Specially in SC4. Quoting its abusiveness in that regard makes your point null. Its effectiveness in the presence of lag has nothing to do with the fact that its uses were vast beyond those in SC5.

And yes I believe that its stupid to think that making an efficient but moderately "balanced" mechanic random is "the way it should have worked".
 
@Supa:

I see. Well, online is its own topic. “Abuse” as a FG concept makes a lot more sense in that context, and I’m not particularly interested in it so I’ll concede that particular point without reluctance or further discussion.

As far as offline MU knowledge goes, however, I don’t think that IFP moves in SCIV could definitively be considered “abuse.” Just because it was hard to train for doesn’t mean it couldn’t be studied and anti-moves developed for it. So I see that argument, but I think its validity is... limited.

On the flip side, I’m not so sure that SCV IFP can be used effectively. Yes, building its strength to get the best possible selection is a good way to influence it, and maybe you’re right that the top set of SCV IFP moves are good enough and universally applicable enough that high-level tournament players can and will roll the dice on them. But personally, I’m going to need to see it to believe it.

And that’s all I really have to say on that subject.
 
Senzait said:
When I have time later I can try and find videos for you if you dont believe me. I never said they used all of them, I said that in general their application was VERY strong against any level of opponent.
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No need - I'm sure I've watched every single one of them 4 years ago. Thanks, though.

Senzait said:
Online is never a measure for anything. Ever. I thought you'd figure that out by now. Specially in SC4. Quoting its abusiveness in that regard makes your point null. Its effectiveness in the presence of lag has nothing to do with the fact that its uses were vast beyond those in SC5.
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You really like to leap to conclusions, don't you? Once again, there is no question about how bad SCIV online was - the point was it was VERY strong online in IV. How that relates to my inability to understand that IV was bad when I know IV was bad... wut? Get back on topic.

Senzait said:
And yes I believe that its stupid to think that making an efficient but moderately "balanced" mechanic random is "the way it should have worked".
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Historical way it worked is consistent with the way it currently works. Did you not play SC2?

Stop trolling me and pay some attention to what you're reading, bro.
 
Supa said:
Super launch IFP (high kick), 44bB, 44bB, 44bB.....

It was definitely a bug.
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Wow...how did I not know about that...

So on other subjects, has anyone noticed how, even though Yoshi's style is listed as "Katana x2," or something like that, he doesn't ever bring out the other sword except for Flea Walk or his CE? Unintended side-effect of losing INT stance, I think. []
 
I doubt sc5 IFP will ever be used in high level play imo. Sorry but the fact that u need 3 guard impacts to do the moves to have the highest rate of them coming out, and its all random..no..and we're talking about a mistimed GI and high damage in this game..Im sure we will be mostly seeing them in casual play. @Gabedamien: I feel in terms of building its strength it just has way too many shortcomings atm to even put it in high lv play.
 
Supa said:
Metronome in IV was only marginally more useful. I don't follow why people would think that it would be strong at high level play consistently.

You had the option to IFP but it required a set-up. It wasn't often you had the opportunity to ask your opponent to step into X amount of character spaces at the 30 second mark, and when you did, they should reasonably know what to expect. Of course, if you happened to be finishing an attack at the right time it was priceless - especially with the helm splitter walk. :)

In the short, I think Metronome was being abused in IV. Possession in V seems to function more of the way it should have worked previously.



Your devious plans were to complain about 214A, run away hoping to trap someone giving chase into a fast IFP move that was difficult to block in IV and win by timeout.......
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Offtopic:
Not to sound like an absolute jerk, but man you're salty about something or your humor is just bad. I really hope it was just bad humor and not the latter. I mean, if you think I was so easy, why didn't you stop me from doing my devious plans? IIRC, it was me giving you the whoopings since you didn't know how to stop my obvious devious plans. And most competent players force me to play carefully once they figure me out. You weren't one those back then. No offense lol.


As for the 214A complaints? That's old news back when we were in shitty online SCIV, but I usually let things slide if the person really doesn't care about the tedious irritable online code I go by. So even if I stated that 214A was lag tactic back then(though it's good for TCing highs, grab happy fools, or stepping opponents), I didn't stop you from using it or booted you since I know when it's a lag tactic. However I understood, if you didn't know Yoshi better and needed help. So can we please drop this buddy? You're only making me think of reinviting you to a SCIV Yoshi mirror match to give you a rematch should you go on with this logic.



Anyways, IFP in SCIV was very useful imho. IFP in SCIV was safe gambles because it was just about the clock. I'm pretty sure you know this Supa or you don't since some peeps don't research, but if you just play a plain jane typical solid yoshi, that's fine and dandy. But you should use these sparingly on opponents who know Yoshi's tricks. If they're not competent, abuse them while playing solid to mindfuck them. All this devious plans of mine were all to mindfuck my opponent and keep them guessing or get them too cocky thinking they can underestimate my "bait then attack" strategy.


Even though they changed the IFP functions which forces me to play a bit differently, I would never say something stupid as "In the short, I think Metronome was being abused in IV. Possession in V seems to function more of the way it should have worked previously." That just shows thou is a coward to try new ideas back in SCIV or you felt the scrubs were stealing your ish(which I didn't mind since I like playing antis). Yoshi needed everything to win Tourneys back in SCIV. Taking risks like suiciding should at least tell you, try your luck.

Anyways my most used IFP moves that helped me:
If you got tired of pokes ruining you or being pressured, T3(electric guard) could interrupt anything but well placed lows or you can use T2(drunken walk) to get you into certain stances: opponents hit low, drunken puts you in flea. They go high, meditation. The last option is you do spinning evade. And I will say I know how to follow up afterwards.

If you got tired turtles and wanted to crack their shell. You could try your luck at T4(kunimitsu's ub) or Special T3(devil jins uppercut ub). But you'd have to be careful especially if you're opponent was competent.

Though gimmicky, T5(paul's incomplete somersault), was nice to mock opponents into thinking they could run and kill you fast.

T0 was that drop kick that loved to smack chasing opponents with. Gimmicky, but fun to use.


Finally, my favorite T6. Running away to avoid anything but horizontals......especially up close. But great for mid to far range.

Pardon my post.
 
Someone is defensive about their 214A/Metronome/Clock-runner game...... The whole game was prefaced with me admitting I stopped playing IV in 2008 because online was garbage and I even thought offline fights were boring. There wasn't really a reason to take insult to that if you admit it's such a basic, simple tactic that you enjoyed. Play your way, bro, play your way. If you want to play SCV - hit me up. There's no grudge here and I have no idea why you're offended - I actually expected some luls from you.

And no, I didn't lose to "scrubs with the magic of metronome," either.

At the end of the day, being an online warrior isn't actually going to change the fact that Metronome was *exclusively* in IV and not present in 2, 3 or 5. I still think Metronome was being abused in IV and it now works the way it did historically and probably the way it was intended.
 
Supa said:
No need - I'm sure I've watched every single one of them 4 years ago. Thanks, though.

You really like to leap to conclusions, don't you? Once again, there is no question about how bad SCIV online was - the point was it was VERY strong online in IV. How that relates to my inability to understand that IV was bad when I know IV was bad... wut? Get back on topic.

Historical way it worked is consistent with the way it currently works. Did you not play SC2?

Stop trolling me and pay some attention to what you're reading, bro.
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Referring to anything being strong online is not relevant to competitive conversations. Dont know the point your trying to make here. Half of the casts 1A's were VERY strong online. All slightly negative moves were VERY strong frame traps online. All slightly punishable moves were safe and hence VERY strong online...
NONE of these were abusable though.

Since when is the historical way things worked how things should work?. Should we just bring back the myriad of useless moves from SC4 just because thats how historically characters move lists have been??

Im going to repeat what I said in the other thread. Research your shit before making erroneous arguments. Bro.
And since when is speaking the truth and correcting misinformed claims trolling?
 
Hmm, Supa you may be raising some valid points, but the way you word it just makes you sound salty and a little rude.

Being a casual in SCIV I will say that I enjoyed Yoshi's clock method more than its current form. Idk anything about its strengths or brokenness however.
 
Senzait said:
Since when is the historical way things worked how things should work?. Should we just bring back the myriad of useless moves from SC4 just because thats how historically characters move lists have been??
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Aren't you one of the people supporting that IFP should be Metronome again? Isn't that desiring historical behavior? What exactly is your stance or point here?

Senzait said:
Im going to repeat what I said in the other thread. Research your shit before making erroneous arguments. Bro.
And since when is speaking the truth and correcting misinformed claims trolling?
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Is super launch 44bB 44bB 44bB not responsible for a couple of tournament match wins? How is that different than Doom Combo?

Metronome provided a way to create a huge reward off of no risk in a lot of situations online, offline, in competition and otherwise. None of this was emulated by people online using 1A/2K/whatever irrelevant nonsense.
 
This is getting out of hand. Supa, while certain Yoshi players appreciate your input, some of us really don't get what you're trying to say here. Your elaboration seems weak and you sound like a scrub trying to sound smart. Deny what you may, but the only reason I felt offended at your words was because how you word them. Don't be coy and a snobbish know it all unless you've proven that what you say is true by actions to the experts offline. There's a reason why I don't spout things even if it's about Yoshi, unless I researched it by trial and error while having it validated or told it's useless and move on.
 
I think this argument should really come to a close now. As for supa saying it was suppose to be orginally intended for yoshi...um what? If the IFP move's now were suppose to be like this then they mind as well should of never implemented them into this game then. There borderline useless( sorry to say that) no one is gonna try and get a GI 3 times just to pull off some random move and hope for a win...that's just nonsense. As for it being abused online thats a fail argument because there were alot of moves abused online other than IFP.....and IFP did not make it or break it for yoshi in the other SC games. Yes maybe his tekken upppercut have some crazy tracking and good damage..but your opponent could of also paided attention to the clock too....and avoided them.So to me it seems u rather have a useless mechanic rather than an interesting mechanic than can certanily help u win a match zzzzz well im done.
 
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