Sieg vs the infamous backstep strategy...

kPc

kPc

[09] Warrior
Alright guys I`m going to talk about what a lot of knowledgeable players already know, atleast they know about it but some do not know how to deal with it. I am still having issues with people that back step with skill myself but since I am constantly playing some good people I am starting to learn how to deal with it and since I`m learning then I`ll share.

Now let me give you the difference of a back step and a good back step.
Someone just back stepping all the time to try to avoid your moves is not really anything to get worried about, in fact since the last patch, they probably might get hit with some crazy shit. This usually turns out to be a who-fucks-up-first fight or if the other player sees what they are doing, could turn ugly for the back stepper if he/she does not change it up.

Now the skilled players are the ones I`m worried about. Here is an example.
Take pat's 66B. If not stepped but blocked, he does decent guard damage and slightly pushes you back but he is still with in reach. Add a back step and pat how no worries with sieg getting damage and as a matter of fact moves like B6 will whiff and now your going to take damage. Well in your head you might be going "ok so I do not attack after 66B, everyone knows that." The point I am proving here is that backstep can be used after many moves that are safe and since sieg has a problem with random whiffing as it is, we should not be throwing out moves to begin our offense.

The point I am making is if you are having problems against someone that excels in movement, you might have to change up your gameplay from defensive to a slightly unsafe offense but you have to judge your opponent. if the player loves to back step, you might want to incorporate a 66B of your own since even though he/she can block it, it should be at a safe distance. Then it turns into one big mind game of "now will he step back or step to the side." which ever mind game it is, you are going to want to make them play your mind game.

If any others have anything to add I`m sure it would help out
 
If opponent backsteps just move forward and engage with pokes. Ain't that bad. OR just sit down there when you have the lead because pat - using the example you used - will have a bitch of a time getting into sieg... sieg's like this tank...
 
What you do against back step depends largely on who you're playing against and what frames you're at.

A short list of moves you can use to kill backstep:

WR AA
B6
6B
3B
WR (B)
2A+B
66A
CE

First off, you MUST read the backstep correctly. If you're wrong and they block, they either get to step back while you're at heavy negative frames, or launch punish you (or worse). If you're wrong and they sidestep, you're getting launched. If you guess wrong and they do something fast or step forward, you're generally not in a terrible position unless they stabbed you or something.

If you're at a small advantage and/or they're fairly close, your safer tools are your best bet. iWR AA has a surprisingly long range and has the benefit of killing Quick Step if you guess wrong. B6 is the safest and quickest option you have, but its low rewards might leave a bad taste in your mouth after the first time you guess wrong and are stabbed in the gut. And as Sacharja said, 3B works wonders, but if you guess right you only get 3B and no follow-up, and on block you're in the SCH reverse mix-up.

For larger advantages, you can bring out some heavier moves for more reward. 6B is generally what I go to for big reads. iWR (B) is faster but doesn't have nearly as much range. 2A+B has good range and is a low, but the move has whiffing issues and you can't get the full combo from it at a distance. 66A can be used to kill back step in theory, but in practice you're most likely going to have it ducked unless they were at enough disadvantage to be punished. Finally, his CE should be able to be used to kill back step, but I have tried time and time again only to have people block it. Fuck those people.

That covers Siegfried's moves that cover back step. There's a few other things he can do, however.

Firstly, you can run at your opponent like a maniac. Generally, at close range Siegfried is at a disadvantage, and running blindly at your opponent is seldom a good tactic in any fighter. However, if read correctly, you've maintained spacing successful and can continue your mid range onslaught. The best part about forward step is that it's the only form of completely safe movement still in the game - you can 6 ~ G ~ 6 ~ G all day and not be hit out of it.

If you're a bit closer, you can do a more riskier forward step with 6B+K and attempt to subject them to SRSH. When done when at a frame advantage, they're forced to face the mix-up or else be interrupted by either option. This is definitely one of the riskiest ways to kill back step, though, so make sure your yomi is up to par before trying this.

On the defensive side of things, you can back step, too, and reset spacing to long range. If you have the life advantage, then you already know what that entails. The risk is a bit higher than most, but if you're fighting a short ranged character and counter their back step like this, you put them in a very bad situation.
 
kPc brings up a solid point. I've experienced this most when I've been using agA for pressure at its optimal range. The +4 on block at tip range is worthless when the opponent can back step all options. The same logic applies to SCH B on block at any distance beyond point blank. 6B doesn't actually doing anything because if your opponent backsteps and then sidesteps 6B will whiff and you will then be whiff punished and lose the match automatically (hyperbole). But he's got shit options in a situation like that where there is already space and despite Sieg having advantage he can do fuck all with it. This same situation is exemplified after say block Pat 66B, or PyrrhaO DNS B.

While you can retort with "just sidestep these" that's not the point, because Sieg gets put in these situations all the time where he is at advantage and all his options can be backstepped. We'll call this mid-long range.

Against characters with good backsteps like NM/Cervy for example blocking agA at anything other than point blank is no big deal. 6B doesn't work for the reasons I suggested above.

In these situations, you're stuck with a shit option. Dash-in and drop the advantage. If they've backstepped they're probably at more disadvantage than you, unfortunately most of sieg's options are pretty linear after you've dashed in so they're free to evade afterward, the exception is another agA.

I'm under the impression that Sieg is forced to do constant dashing in in these types of situations (which comes with its own set of problems). Siegfried plays best though when you can force an opponent's back to the wall and make them eat his mix-ups. So if they keep backdashing after this it ultimately leads to a viable strategy assuming you can keep pushing them back, and the blocked attacks will have lead to a healthy amount of guard damage.

But yea, it's a shame that he can't actually his advantage because he has nothing comparable to say NM 3B backstep kill, which seems to do a much better job than Sieg 3B at catching backstep (or maybe the grass is just greener on the other side in my eyes).
 
PyroZamfir said:
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You would be forced to do that, if you really wanted to get in close and apply pressure. Depending on the situation (pretty much every time the life advantage is in your favor or at least neutral) that might be the wrong approach to take. Yes, they can move out of your sphere of control at the tiprange of agA, but what good will that do them? They'll have to get back in again. If people want to make your spacing even easier, let them.

Also, use more 3B. It even catches NM and Cervy as far as close-to-midrange post agA and SCH B on block. There are few moves in this game that are as effective at this. NMs 3B for example has the same range, but is slower, therefore has trouble actually punishing backstep in certain situations.

The issue in general that light advantage at greater ranges doesn't result in immediate pressure options is not exclusive to Siegfried in particular (quite the opposite actually, he copes with his much better than the vast majority of the roster), it's just the nature of the game. Positioning and spacing are so much more important, small advantage only becomes relevant in closerange or if people are desperate enough to start attacking you in those situations. And eventually they will be.

Keep spacing. Know when 3B will hit them out of backstep and when it won't and work from there. Against people that like to cancel backstep into quicksteps, dash in and agA, you won't believe how freakishly large the vulnerability window for that maneuver is.
 
Sacharja said:
You would be forced to do that, if you really wanted to get in close and apply pressure. Depending on the situation (pretty much every time the life advantage is in your favor or at least neutral) that might be the wrong approach to take. Yes, they can move out of your sphere of control at the tiprange of agA, but what good will that do them? They'll have to get back in again. If people want to make your spacing even easier, let them.
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There is truth to what you say about this against a large portion of the cast. My main annoyance is against a few characters who operate well from this range. The characters that do operate well after backstepping out of agA are Ivy, Asta and PyrrhaO.

Ivy isn't so bad since Sieg can usually sidestep her long range options or SBH her horizontal options at mid-long.

Asta is annoying because 22B has surprising step catch properties and 22B BE might as well be a horizontal some days.

PyrrhaO gets put in perfect distance for DNS stuff. Which I'm finding I just need to be more aggressive against. If they backstep out they are effectively limited to DNS to resume an offence. Against this there are a few options.

You can try and step if you feel a DNS B and get an okay whiff punish (assuming she doesn't walk past Siegfried while he's trying to 3B which will make him whiff. Anyone else failing at whiff punishing PyrrhaO because she steps forward after the move lately and you have to use 3A / 22A / agA?

I stopped doing this, just to err on the side of caution. You can poke PyrrhaO after a blocked DNS B with b6(probably sieg's best move in this match-up) or 2A. Nothing guaranteed but it's annoying them at the least.

DNS A can be punished by b6, and at some ranges 3K for advantage on hit. 66kBE seems pretty unreliable against DNS A spacing on block though.

It is against these particular characters that the backstep issue becomes apparent. They are anomalies in the roster, however they're pretty popular anomalies from what I'm seeing so it's worth adapting to some counter strategies. Somehow it seems strange to me that using what I feel are Sieg's main pressure tools results in other characters being put into much better scenarios.

I might be alone in this school of thought, but I think backstep even after the nerf can be used in a lot of instances. The only time you don't do it is in your opponent's face.
 
PyroZamfir said:
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You mentioned appropriate countermeasures against Ivy and Omega yourself. Let me point out that iWS AA positively rapes 22B-happy Astas. It helps that it beats out 66K BE as well.

To maximize whiffpunishment against Omegas forward-moving, large recovery moves (DNS B, 66B, CE), either use 11A (this stuff is very underutilized by the Sieg community) or learn to adopt QS~crouch as main evasive maneuver. If they whiff, Sieg will re-align correctly for WS B to hit.

Also, I personally like 6A as NS A punishment.

In general, I do not consider the scenario truly advantageous for the aforementioned characters at all (except maybe Astaroth, because he actually has multiple tools that he can employ at that range).

And yes, backstep is still an incredibly effective defensive maneuver. The patch merely brought it in line with others. It's still largely applicable, that even includes situations in which you find yourself in closerange.
 
I still find myself struggling hard against good backstepping in specific MU's. The main problem is when they constantly reset the spacing to long range, where i dont exactly know how to get in correctly in combination with the char having good whiffpunish options from that range, like cervy.

What would be the smartest thing to do against this kind of constant backstepping? Right now i am mostly relying on iaga since its pretty safe on whiff. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Here's a video to show what i mean:


Edit: To clarify, just staying at long range wouldn't have helped me because i'd just end up avoiding bullets, so i felt the need to engage somehow.
 
Cervy's backstep is totally stupid. Especially because after he can do huge damage (3B, 33B) without meter.
The best option is still 3B or WRB from crouch. agA is interesting because it's safe on whiff and antiside, but the range is shorter. Same with WSA.
When 3B or WS B are not enough on my side I can adopt 3 attitudes.
- I Try to use long range move, but's it's risky, because of the recovery or the frame on block (66B, 6B, 3aA)
- I accept the situation and I don't try to attack. So I'm frontdashing or doing something more defensive (side/backdash or guard...). But with this attitude I just accept to loose the frame advantage, and I have to win a new mind game to have the opportunity do to damage (with an other mind game...).
-CE, it's so manly to counter backdash.

Well, in others terms, you have to be far better than the opponent to win (that's my definition of a bad MU btw...)

About the bullet : if you have the life advantage, just duck and wait... JG is funny, since it can discourage the cervy's player to continue... psychological effect. (it should be the opposite, lol)
 
ShenYuan said:
Hmmm no idea why but i think sieg is hard for opponents to backstep from. Also i think sieg vs cerv is solid 5-5.
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I agree with that if the opponent is close to Sieg but I personally think he is weak to backstep in his comfortable "zoning" zone.
 
He is very hard to backstep in the close-mid range, 3B will catch everything but mid-long is a problem for me personally.
 
Siegfried doesn't like backstep (and movement in general) mainly because his attack's recovery.
There is a lot of pushback in this game, and some character's backdash are very strong and can also whiff punish with a lot of damage. 3BWR/B are very strong against backdash, but it's far to be safe and in some setup it doesn't work. A lot of character have better tools for this (alexandra's 66B by example).

Cervy-sieg 5-5 is just unbelievable on my point of view, and not only because of this backdash story.
 
ShenYuan said:
Hmmm no idea why but i think sieg is hard for opponents to backstep from. Also i think sieg vs cerv is solid 5-5.
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Pantocrator said:
Cervy-sieg 5-5 is just unbelievable on my point of view, and not only because of this backdash story.
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Cervantes is faster... long range... many low attacks and pokes... best punishment... doesn't need metter to do damaging combos... CE can RO and is UB... better moves recovery... umm Shen Yuan are you trying to fool us or you just want to enrage Panto?
 
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