Zwei pessimist discussion

I think Zwei should get piercing on his ears and wear tighter pants, which would cause osculation is his upper body
 
Got to be honest here... only been playing Z.W.E.I for about a month, looking at some combo vids, seeing what he's got in matches and the guy is crazy fun but stupidly underpowered. I've already comprised a list of things "I" think he needs, I don't quite have the imagination of some of you other players so I'll mostly just be improving what he has. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on a well... newcomer to both SCV and Z.W.E.I himself's opinion on what this character could use to be more competitive. Gonna be a bit long, bear with me.

E.I.N - Overall cooldown reduced. Nonsense like B] can't be done infinitely but Ein now comes back out immediately after his portal animation ends for any move making general EIN pressure easier and scary (Things like B] > B+K become legit and almost instant, almost).

EIN will still be canceled if Z.W.E.I is hit before he is fully summoned or stationary but will now finish his attack regardless of Z.W.E.I being hit or not if the attack animation has already started (Applies only to 4A], 1B] and 6B+K]).

6A+B - Active frames reduced by 4, startup frames reduced to 3 (*NEW* Active window = 3-13, EIN appearing requires a little animation at least). aGI is now nearly instant and can be done to react to nearly any string involving mids as long as Z.W.E.I is not locked down by blockstun.

3B - Safety changed to -14. I know it's a launcher but it's just a bit too unsafe in comparison to some others imo, especially given it's speed.

4B - Stun changed to guarantee 66A+B without BE followup. Makes it a much stronger punish and a legitimately scary tool without Z.W.E.I requiring meter. I really wanted to shave it's frames down to i15 or have it guarantee CE but I felt like that would have been a bit too OP.

44B - Attack revamped. EIN and break attack property completely removed. Startup frames changed to i23. Stun changed to electric yellow falldown stun to guarantee both 4B or CE regardless of NH or CH. Safety changed to -12. Animation changed to remove Z.W.E.I flipping the sword in the air. Range increased to 6B distance, damage reduced to 28.

214B - Advantage increased to +6. Forcing all characters to at least respect BB. At +4 Natsu and Devil Jin can safely AA out of it and at best Z.W.E.I is either trading AA with them or attempting 2A or 2K which is still risky due to their short range.

22/88BB - Whiffing issue fixed to always guarantee the 2nd hit if first hit is not blocked. Don't know why it doesn't do this already.

66BA - Changed to mid, mid. No more of this string crushing nonsense. Adjust the move so that you can still do it after things like 1K BE. Make it a bit less safe to compensate. Around -13 or -14,

3AA - 3A startup changed to i19.

4A] - Changed property to guarantee EIN on CH. Safety on 4A changed to -14.

44A - Safety changed to -15, forward lunge range increased a bit.

6A - Tracking on both sides, as easy as this move is to crush and avoid, I don't understand why it doesn't already do this.

4A+B (Hold) - Fully charged property changed to break attack. +10 on block. Damage value unchanged. This move is meant to be a combo ender I know but I'm still having trouble justifying an i38 short range linear mid being -24 on block. Plus with 44B being changed, wihout this he'd only have one break attack.

6B+K - Startup reduced to 22 frames, advantage on the A/B followups changed to +12. Move actually has to be respected now. Followups can now be done regardless if first hit of EIN connects or not.

BT B+K - Whiffing issue fixed. Ein will no longer come out in front of Z.W.E.I if he is BT.

11/77K - Advantage changed from -2 to +5. Low kick or not, this move is too slow and easy to block to justify negative frames on hit. Give it enough advantage for the opponent to have to give Z.W.E.I a little respect.

-BE Attacks-

3A BE - Changed to be able to hit confirm like 4B BE. Safety changed to -10.

66A BE - Property changed. EIN will now track the opponent regardless of their placement on the screen. (Basically, they have to wait for him to move to his location and THEN move out of the way, but they risk being hit by him so the safest bet is to stand there and take the +30. which isn't exactly the best idea either. Win/Win.)

B+K BE - EIN will now come out regardless of if Z.W.E.I has blocked an attack or not. Will still be canceled if Z.W.E.I is hit.
 
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I don't play zwei at all, so i barely understand any wishlist.

But in a fundamental game design sense, is there ways people wish Zwei was more powerful without borrowing mechanical advantages from someone designed like viola ?
 
Just give him a good punisher man. That's what I've been saying from the start. I said it on FB, 8way, SRK, TYM, Twitter, ATP, Skype, and in person. Just one fucking punisher please omg, that's all I want :/
 
Zane said:
Just give him a good punisher man. That's what I've been saying from the start. I said it on FB, 8way, SRK, TYM, Twitter, ATP, Skype, and in person. Just one fucking punisher please omg, that's all I want :/
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Well, in your opinion, if 4B was scaled down to 15 frames and guaranteed 66A+B without the use of meter do you think that would be overpowered as a punish or as a tool in general? With damage scaling I don't see it being on par with tools/punishes like Pyr/O.Pyr's 236B~4, even with meter use making it semi-safe.
 
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what I want most is 4B to be i14, 3B to hit grounded and track grounded opponents, B+K BE the ein attack comes from behind the opponent pushing them towards you, and a better grab range.
 
Ehh I'll chime in on this, 4B needs to be faster and do a bit more damage (4b by itself the damage is so awful :/) ...really his slower frames is a big issue because then it makes it alot harder for zwei to challenge people who tend to disrespect him alot when their at disadvantage against him. I can live without him not having any fast lows since i don't think its meant for him to have that, and it would be too broken in conjunction with B+K BE anyway.

Better step kill obviously because 3A BE is a heavy commitment. He doesn't need much but ofc this is for sc6 (if there will be one) because I don't think a patch is coming out for sc5 again, its been too long anyway.
 
Zeo said:
Got to be honest here... only been playing Z.W.E.I for about a month, looking at some combo vids, seeing what he's got in matches and the guy is crazy fun but stupidly underpowered. I've already comprised a list of things "I" think he needs, I don't quite have the imagination of some of you other players so I'll mostly just be improving what he has. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on a well... newcomer to both SCV and Z.W.E.I himself's opinion on what this character could use to be more competitive. Gonna be a bit long, bear with me.

E.I.N - Overall cooldown reduced. Nonsense like B] can't be done infinitely but Ein now comes back out immediately after his portal animation ends for any move making general EIN pressure easier and scary (Things like B] > B+K become legit and almost instant, almost).

EIN will still be canceled if Z.W.E.I is hit before he is fully summoned or stationary but will now finish his attack regardless of Z.W.E.I being hit or not if the attack animation has already started (Applies only to 4A], 1B] and 6B+K]).

6A+B - Active frames reduced by 4, startup frames reduced to 3 (*NEW* Active window = 3-13, EIN appearing requires a little animation at least). aGI is now nearly instant and can be done to react to nearly any string involving mids as long as Z.W.E.I is not locked down by blockstun.

3B - Safety changed to -14. I know it's a launcher but it's just a bit too unsafe in comparison to some others imo, especially given it's speed.

4B - Stun changed to guarantee 66A+B without BE followup. Makes it a much stronger punish and a legitimately scary tool without Z.W.E.I requiring meter. I really wanted to shave it's frames down to i15 or have it guarantee CE but I felt like that would have been a bit too OP.

44B - Attack revamped. EIN and break attack property completely removed. Startup frames changed to i23. Stun changed to electric yellow falldown stun to guarantee both 4B or CE regardless of NH or CH. Safety changed to -12. Animation changed to remove Z.W.E.I flipping the sword in the air. Range increased to 6B distance, damage reduced to 28.

214B - Advantage increased to +6. Forcing all characters to at least respect BB. At +4 Natsu and Devil Jin can safely AA out of it and at best Z.W.E.I is either trading AA with them or attempting 2A or 2K which is still risky due to their short range.

22/88BB - Whiffing issue fixed to always guarantee the 2nd hit if first hit is not blocked. Don't know why it doesn't do this already.

66BA - Changed to mid, mid. No more of this string crushing nonsense. Adjust the move so that you can still do it after things like 1K BE. Make it a bit less safe to compensate. Around -13 or -14,

3AA - 3A startup changed to i19.

4A] - Changed property to guarantee EIN on CH. Safety on 4A changed to -14.

44A - Safety changed to -15, forward lunge range increased a bit.

6A - Tracking on both sides, as easy as this move is to crush and avoid, I don't understand why it doesn't already do this.

4A+B (Hold) - Fully charged property changed to break attack. +10 on block. Damage value unchanged. This move is meant to be a combo ender I know but I'm still having trouble justifying an i38 short range linear mid being -24 on block. Plus with 44B being changed, wihout this he'd only have one break attack.

6B+K - Startup reduced to 22 frames, advantage on the A/B followups changed to +12. Move actually has to be respected now. Followups can now be done regardless if first hit of EIN connects or not.

BT B+K - Whiffing issue fixed. Ein will no longer come out in front of Z.W.E.I if he is BT.

11/77K - Advantage changed from -2 to +5. Low kick or not, this move is too slow and easy to block to justify negative frames on hit. Give it enough advantage for the opponent to have to give Z.W.E.I a little respect.

-BE Attacks-

3A BE - Changed to be able to hit confirm like 4B BE. Safety changed to -10.

66A BE - Property changed. EIN will now track the opponent regardless of their placement on the screen. (Basically, they have to wait for him to move to his location and THEN move out of the way, but they risk being hit by him so the safest bet is to stand there and take the +30. which isn't exactly the best idea either. Win/Win.)

B+K BE - EIN will now come out regardless of if Z.W.E.I has blocked an attack or not. Will still be canceled if Z.W.E.I is hit.
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Sup man here is my opinion on each of your ideas for changes.

Cooldown reduced - I don't think it would make him that much better but it would give him a few more options (3A BE - B] - B+K BE?) which wouldn't hurt so i agree here.

Ein not being cancelled - could you explain this one a little more please? also does this include 66a+b?

6A+B - I agree with this because can make opponent think twice about using mids after more attacks on block.

3B - i know considering the speed, crappy range and available options on hit why is this move -16 when Gloomy Tira's 3B is much better in every way and its -14 so i do agree with this, however tbf 3B should only be used where its guaranteed anyway.

4B - Everyone wants to change this move in some way lol but finding the right balance feels difficult. Increasing the stun would also mean that 1K BE would be guaranteed as well, if this was to be the change the frames should defo stay the same.

44B - Sounds better than the 44B we have now lol. nah the 44B we have now does have its place in a few set ups.

214B - I agree here because this move is JGable on reaction ffs lol.

22BB - Yes please.

66BA - Personally i wouldnt like this change that much because for one it would probably still be JGable for a launcher punish considering if it was -14 on block already, plus it would stop them having to buffer ducking effectively weakening the reverse mix up we have already.

3AA - Not to sure here i19 does seem abit too good being able to punish backstep as well as step close range at neutral. I think i21 would be more fair which would still fuck them trying to backstep after a -2 attack if in range.

4a) - sounds abit too good if you mean you score a counter hit with 4a you then get Ein and then 66BA all guaranteed? proberly just the -14 on block would be fairer.

44A - Nice i guess but a tad pointless considering its still seeable and wouldnt make punishment any less painful apart from the Zwei mirror match lol.

6A - I agree, i mean i guessed right ffs lol.

4A+B) - easy JG lol but i do dislike the unsafeness of the current one, how about -14 and breaks in like 6 just like Pat's B+K.

6B+K) - cool i guess lol i22 high still a big hindrance though.

BT B+K - Yep.

11K - Yes please would prove alot better.

3A BE - if your changing the speed aswell then the -16 unsafeness is justified imo.

66A BE - could you explain this again please?

B+K BE - I know Viola has this meterless but the damage though lol this would be very cheap for time outs imo.
 
AndyrooxDS said:
Sup man here is my opinion on each of your ideas for changes.

Cooldown reduced - I don't think it would make him that much better but it would give him a few more options (3A BE - B] - B+K BE?) which wouldn't hurt so i agree here.

Ein not being cancelled - could you explain this one a little more please? also does this include 66a+b
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3A BE - B] - B+K BE would definitely work.

As for paragraph 2, it basically means if Ein is in his stationary animation hitting Z.W.E.I will cancel him, but if he has already begun his attacking animation (uppercut, swipe, etc) then he will finish regardless of it Z.W.E.I has been hit or not.

Example: Z.W.E.I throws out 66A+B and doesn't charge Ein and just lets him rip, you hit Z.W.E.I when Ein is already coming out, Z.W.E.I is probably in hitstun but Ein is still coming out and you're probably getting uppercutted. On the other hand if he opts to hold Ein for a mixup and gets hit, Ein is negated.

This would make 66A+B overpowered though so I'm not including that. I included 4A], 1B] and 6B+K in the moves with that particular property. 66A+B would be unbeatable if it had that property.

AndyrooxDS said:
6A+B - I agree with this because can make opponent think twice about using mids after more attacks on block.

3B - i know considering the speed, crappy range and available options on hit why is this move -16 when Gloomy Tira's 3B is much better in every way and its -14 so i do agree with this, however tbf 3B should only be used where its guaranteed anyway.

4B - Everyone wants to change this move in some way lol but finding the right balance feels difficult. Increasing the stun would also mean that 1K BE would be guaranteed as well, if this was to be the change the frames should defo stay the same.
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6A+B - Yep, this gives him an non JG option against various things like Viola's orb, BE strings with break attack mids and even a few quick mids.

3B - Glad we agree.

4B - I think it would be fair. 66A+B is one thing but 1K BE and even 1K BE into CE is literally a 1 and a third of meter. It's definitely fair considering the damage certain other characters are getting off of their i15 mids. Some without meter at all.

AndyrooxDS said:
44B - Sounds better than the 44B we have now lol. nah the 44B we have now does have its place in a few set ups.

214B - I agree here because this move is JGable on reaction ffs lol.

22BB - Yes please.
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44B - It's basically a variant of Patroklos' dreaded 66B. Automatically more useful than his current 44B. As for those uses you're talking about, I wonder what those setups are because I definitely have not seen them.

214B - Yep.

22BB - Uh huh.


AndyrooxDS said:
66BA - Personally i wouldnt like this change that much because for one it would probably still be JGable for a launcher punish considering if it was -14 on block already, plus it would stop them having to buffer ducking effectively weakening the reverse mix up we have already.

3AA - Not to sure here i19 does seem abit too good being able to punish backstep as well as step close range at neutral. I think i21 would be more fair which would still fuck them trying to backstep after a -2 attack if in range.

4a) - sounds abit too good if you mean you score a counter hit with 4a you then get Ein and then 66BA all guaranteed? proberly just the -14 on block would be fairer.

44A - Nice i guess but a tad pointless considering its still seeable and wouldnt make punishment any less painful apart from the Zwei mirror match lol.
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66BA - You're basically trading one poison for the other. I definitely prefer mid mid route. Literally the opponent can just use a TC move on reaction after seeing 66B and you're either getting beat out or your guard gauge is being pummled. I can deal with it being punished by JG-ing. I'd prefer not to be scared whenever I'm throwing out this string. Plus it's an extra chunk of guard gauge damage in the case that they don't JG.

3AA - It's so slow at i23 I don't see i21 being that huge of a difference even if I know one frame can be a huge diff in a lot of other cases. It's still unsafe on block and it's got a high followup. It can at least catch sidestep reliably as literally his only mid option.

4A] - Looking at the damage values especially considering the clean hit property on the 2nd hit of 66BA leads me to agree with you, that would be a bit too good. I do stand by the safety though, Ideally I'd just prefer to increase the safety or blockstun in order to force them to respect Ein instead of quickstepping on reaction being the ultimate answer. It doesn't really need a buff damage wise.

44A - It would be slightly better, but yeah not that big of a deal. The point though is to make it a bit more viable outside of when you have your opponent in the corner.

AndyrooxDS said:
6A - I agree, i mean i guessed right ffs lol.

4A+B) - easy JG lol but i do dislike the unsafeness of the current one, how about -14 and breaks in like 6 just like Pat's B+K.

6B+K) - cool i guess lol i22 high still a big hindrance though.

BT B+K - Yep.

11K - Yes please would prove alot better.
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6A - Indeed.

4A+B - It may be but that also would require you to JG it period. Which you don't even need to do. Why risk getting hit trying to JG when you can just sidestep or even just literally sit there block it and get a free punish because he's at -24 after using a 38 frame mid. It would still beat out 44B in break attack usability and it would force you to be on point with your punish instead of just getting a free one as soon as you see it.

I'd support making the fast version (which is still 31 frames...) a bit safer though. Also it already breaks in 6. The charged version at least.

6B+K - Still slow yeah but i22 isn't i27. You might actually be able to do something with the former, especially if the string itself is made more respectable.

BT B+K - I don't know of a single Z.W.E.I player or player in general that wouldn't agree with this anyway.

AndyrooxDS said:
3A BE - if your changing the speed aswell then the -16 unsafeness is justified imo.

66A BE - could you explain this again please?

B+K BE - I know Viola has this meterless but the damage though lol this would be very cheap for time outs imo.
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3A BE - You're right actually, I stand by the hit confirmability though.

B+K BE - It's a little cheap but all it really commands is respect, my stance on it has not changed. If he blocks Ein should still come out just like everything else he does that uses Ein.

66A BE -Basically, Z.W.E.I's 66A BE as it is now sends Ein to a set location every time, a few feet in front of him. If he's in front of the opponent then Ein will go behind them but if he's far enough away then they have nothing to worry about In other cases the opponent is so close to Z.W.E.I that Ein goes to far behind the opponent and still whiff. In any case they can just duck the high and punish or just sidestep Ein at any range.

The new version would track the opponent and send Ein to the opponent's back regardless of their location on the screen and track them until the attack comes out.

Example: Z.W.E.I does 66A BE from full screen and the opponent has no choice but to sit there and respect it (as Ein follows them if they step), they block, he's at +30 and literally has time to run across the screen and still get a mixup. The +30 however does not guarantee any attacks which is odd but also balances out the move and keeps it from going into the overpowered category. It's also +15 for Z.W.E.I even if it's JG'ded. Ein can still be GI'ed though.

Just for balance's sake.

Pros:
+30 or +15 on Block/JG for free mixup.
Tracks step and character location.
Combos into CE on NH and CH.
Guarantees A+G or B+G.

Cons:
Starts with an i25 high which can be crushed or ducked.
Ein dissapears if Z.W.E.I is hit.
Ein can be GI'ed.
Z.W.E.I gets no guaranteed attack followups after Ein on block regardless of the massive frame advantage.
 
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Zeo said:
3A BE - B] - B+K BE would definitely work.

As for paragraph 2, it basically means if Ein is in his stationary animation hitting Z.W.E.I will cancel him, but if he has already begun his attacking animation (uppercut, swipe, etc) then he will finish regardless of it Z.W.E.I has been hit or not.

Example: Z.W.E.I throws out 66A+B and doesn't charge Ein and just lets him rip, you hit Z.W.E.I when Ein is already coming out, Z.W.E.I is probably in hitstun but Ein is still coming out and you're probably getting uppercutted. On the other hand if he opts to hold Ein for a mixup and gets hit, Ein is negated.

This would make 66A+B overpowered though so I'm not including that. I included 4A], 1B] and 6B+K in the moves with that particular property. 66A+B would be unbeatable if it had that property.



6A+B - Yep, this gives him an non JG option against various things like Viola's orb, BE strings with break attack mids and even a few quick mids.

3B - Glad we agree.

4B - I think it would be fair. 66A+B is one thing but 1K BE and even 1K BE into CE is literally a 1 and a third of meter. It's definitely fair considering the damage certain other characters are getting off of their i15 mids. Some without meter at all.



44B - It's basically a variant of Patroklos' dreaded 66B. Automatically more useful than his current 44B. As for those uses you're talking about, I wonder what those setups are because I definitely have not seen them.

214B - Yep.

22BB - Uh huh.




66BA - You're basically trading one poison for the other. I definitely prefer mid mid route. Literally the opponent can just use a TC move on reaction after seeing 66B and you're either getting beat out or your guard gauge is being pummled. I can deal with it being punished by JG-ing. I'd prefer not to be scared whenever I'm throwing out this string. Plus it's an extra chunk of guard gauge damage in the case that they don't JG.

3AA - It's so slow at i23 I don't see i21 being that huge of a difference even if I know one frame can be a huge diff in a lot of other cases. It's still unsafe on block and it's got a high followup. It can at least catch sidestep reliably as literally his only mid option.

4A] - Looking at the damage values especially considering the clean hit property on the 2nd hit of 66BA leads me to agree with you, that would be a bit too good. I do stand by the safety though, Ideally I'd just prefer to increase the safety or blockstun in order to force them to respect Ein instead of quickstepping on reaction being the ultimate answer. It doesn't really need a buff damage wise.

44A - It would be slightly better, but yeah not that big of a deal. The point though is to make it a bit more viable outside of when you have your opponent in the corner.



6A - Indeed.

4A+B - It may be but that also would require you to JG it period. Which you don't even need to do. Why risk getting hit trying to JG when you can just sidestep or even just literally sit there block it and get a free punish because he's at -24 after using a 38 frame mid. It would still beat out 44B in break attack usability and it would force you to be on point with your punish instead of just getting a free one as soon as you see it.

I'd support making the fast version (which is still 31 frames...) a bit safer though. Also it already breaks in 6. The charged version at least.

6B+K - Still slow yeah but i22 isn't i27. You might actually be able to do something with the former, especially if the string itself is made more respectable.

BT B+K - I don't know of a single Z.W.E.I player or player in general that wouldn't agree with this anyway.



3A BE - You're right actually, I stand by the hit confirmability though.

B+K BE - It's a little cheap but all it really commands is respect, my stance on it has not changed. If he blocks Ein should still come out just like everything else he does that uses Ein.

66A BE -Basically, Z.W.E.I's 66A BE as it is now sends Ein to a set location every time, a few feet in front of him. If he's in front of the opponent then Ein will go behind them but if he's far enough away then they have nothing to worry about In other cases the opponent is so close to Z.W.E.I that Ein goes to far behind the opponent and still whiff. In any case they can just duck the high and punish or just sidestep Ein at any range.

The new version would track the opponent and send Ein to the opponent's back regardless of their location on the screen and track them until the attack comes out.

Example: Z.W.E.I does 66A BE from full screen and the opponent has no choice but to sit there and respect it (as Ein follows them if they step), they block, he's at +30 and literally has time to run across the screen and still get a mixup. The +30 however does not guarantee any attacks which is odd but also balances out the move and keeps it from going into the overpowered category. It's also +15 for Z.W.E.I even if it's JG'ded. Ein can still be GI'ed though.

Just for balance's sake.

Pros:
+30 or +15 on Block/JG for free mixup.
Tracks step and character location.
Combos into CE on NH and CH.
Guarantees A+G or B+G.

Cons:
Starts with an i25 high which can be crushed or ducked.
Ein dissapears if Z.W.E.I is hit.
Ein can be GI'ed.
Z.W.E.I gets no guaranteed attack followups after Ein on block regardless of the massive frame advantage.
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Paragraph 2 - I get it better now, it would make Ein a little more feared, mainly 1B) zoning would be must use by ZWEI players because of its buff.

4B - when i brought up 1k BE i was thinking about his RO game but i remembered you can still just BE the 4B now derp.

44B - A few include - A+G > 4B BE > W! > 44B (because 4B BE W! combos can be inconsistent at even slight angles) and 22BB CH > 44B vs left and right tech (As it hits grounded and if they back tech then they run the risk of eating a 66A+B tech trap) . Basically set ups to get this heavy GB attack to get blocked.

66B - Yeah i guess because its still a reverse mix up, how safe would just 66B be on its own? In higher level play unless your playing the reverse mix up mind game well then players will JG it everytime so at this level (where it matters) you still have be prepared to be punished for it. (Leixia 6KK is a similar move which comes to mind)

3A - if you can now hit confirm the BE then this mix up is quite strong already and you want it i19 too? This would probably be on of ZWEIs top 5 moves in that case.


4A+B- oh right its only the hold version where it becomes a GB attack? Yeah the none hold version -14 would be good.

6B+K - i do agree with you on this one.

66A be - this move would get complaints at first i bet, but yeah this would improve him, cool idea.
 
AndyrooxDS said:
Paragraph 2 - I get it better now, it would make Ein a little more feared, mainly 1B) zoning would be must use by ZWEI players because of its buff.

4B - when i brought up 1k BE i was thinking about his RO game but i remembered you can still just BE the 4B now derp.

44B - A few include - A+G > 4B BE > W! > 44B (because 4B BE W! combos can be inconsistent at even slight angles) and 22BB CH > 44B vs left and right tech (As it hits grounded and if they back tech then they run the risk of eating a 66A+B tech trap) . Basically set ups to get this heavy GB attack to get blocked.

66B - Yeah i guess because its still a reverse mix up, how safe would just 66B be on its own? In higher level play unless your playing the reverse mix up mind game well then players will JG it everytime so at this level (where it matters) you still have be prepared to be punished for it. (Leixia 6KK is a similar move which comes to mind)

3A - if you can now hit confirm the BE then this mix up is quite strong already and you want it i19 too? This would probably be on of ZWEIs top 5 moves in that case.


4A+B- oh right its only the hold version where it becomes a GB attack? Yeah the none hold version -14 would be good.

6B+K - i do agree with you on this one.

66A be - this move would get complaints at first i bet, but yeah this would improve him, cool idea.
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44B - Eh, I'd still prefer a solid additional whiff punisher and big damage combo starter to a gimmicky guard break that can only be used in a few specific setups.

66B - Yeah either way it's a risk in high level play, I'll still take the mid mid though for just an inch more reliability. 66B by itself would still have the frames on block it has now also.

3A - If it was as fast as 4B (i17) I could agree, but at i19 even as a tracking mid it's still fairly slow and with the BE followup itself being unsafe on block I don't see how it would be too good. A great tool sure but too many cons and risks to be considered top 5.
 
I'm pretty sure Z.W.E.I is easily the weakest character in the entire game, if not the entire series. Even as a strictly casual player who wants nothing to do with the competitive side of SC, I never play as him because he's so terrible. His range is atrocious, his damage is weak, his grapples are shite, his combos don't make any sense and his main gimmick, E.I.N, never bloody shows up except for a few very specific moves (which are hard to remember how to do). Jesus, he's even useless against the AI on easy.

A shame, because the character design and weapon concept is awesome. What a pity the moveset is so unspeakably awful.
 
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