Counterpick Calibur 5.

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Counterpicking a good choice?


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LP

Premium Member
Just posed a question to the other Chicago players as to whether or not we should start counterpicking in tournament matches. I ask this because this is a game where I feel that most of the characters (who aren't, say, Mits, Pyrrahs, etc) have some matches where quite a few things can be exploited. Of course, as the game draws, new tactics will be found and refined but, as I put it to them, you can't make a slow character fast or a short-ranged one right fullscreen.

While I'm more of a 'character loyalist', I happen to be able to play quite a few characters competently, so I'm torn between the two choices. What do you guys think?

What's more, what do you all think of counterpicking against other players (in other words, playing a character you know your opponent may not be up to slack on?). It's general knowledge which characters are underplayed and, either through their own admission or watching them play, you can see which characters your opponent may not know too well.

I know some people are on the side of 'your opponent should know the match' and others think it may be underhanded or lacking of skill, but what do you guys think?

I'm personally indifferent towards other players doing it but I don't think I could do that myself. I think you can change the tools a player has but you can never change their thought patterns.

Really want to hear feedback from you guys, people who travel and don't alike, to get an idea of how you view the game.
 
If your opponent doesn't know the match up then why not counter pick? You're trying to get the win and it doesn't matter how you got it as long as you got it. Though you should be using the character that you're most comfortable with, since odds are you will play better with the character.
 
If your opponent doesn't know the match up then why not counter pick? You're trying to get the win and it doesn't matter how you got it as long as you got it. Though you should be using the character that you're most comfortable with, since odds are you will play better with the character.

Yeah, that's why I used Mits at MLG, he's ezpz and really strong so he took away a lot of my nerves and allowed me to relax more.
 
Overall, you need to do what you have to do to get that W, including counterpicking. If you feel that you have a bad matchup, can use a character to capitalize on your opponent's ignorance, or can put yourself in a better position to win by switching characters, take it.

There's nothing underhanded about it and is not against the rules, so there shouldn't be a problem.
 
Yeah I was typically a 1 character kinda guy in 4, but that's changed for this game.

These days I will not hesitate to "run" to another char when the going gets rough. Considering how fucked up things can get in this game, I almost think it would be crazy NOT to have an ensemble of characters.

I'd still prefer to figure everything out with one, but seeing how a certain character is missing from the game (and my heart U_U ) I don't really mind it as much.

Of course this is just my opinion on the matter.
 
Choose a main, then have a pocket Mitsu / Prryha at the ready any time.

In all seriousness, it's hard for me to recommend character counterpicks as opposed to choosing one or two characters, a main and a secondary, to be really solid with in order to round out your strengths and weaknesses in tournament play. Like LostProvidence said, you can change your tools, but not your thought patterns. I believe in tournament, solid play wins over winning through your opponent's character ignorance.

Know your match-ups and own them until your fingers bleed. Maybe pick a secondary character to round out your style/ strengths / weaknesses and do the same. Against most top players in a tournament...the characters don't matter.

Trying to train more than two characters for me is hard to recommend to another player going for a tournament for the sake of counterpicking.

This is a good discussion. This wasn't an easy post for me to write since I don't think there's really an easy answer to this.

I'm curious about what others have to say.
 
Pocket Mitsu works.

Swing for the fences and 2KB BE until the cows come home. Oh, you have years of experience and training?
Doesn't matter, I swept the leg.



But otherwise, study the matchup. You'll have to set aside some time to do so, you might have to play online to find those characters, and (imho) it's a lot of %^&*ing work, but if you're serious you gotta do it.

I wanna see Viola 66AAB get ducked on stream. For real.



ed. as for specifically counterpicking against certain players, if your control of said character is up to par, and you know for sure that this person will have trouble adapting, go for it.

A tournament win through gimmicks is still a win. (Though the loser may be well seasoned once they review the footage.)
 
I was always a fan of keeping at least three characters with a big difference in their tools to keep my opponent and myself on our toes. Also if I find a weakness in your playstyle that is easily exploitable by another character I play, I will run them just to test your adaptability as a player.
 
I believe that everyone should have TWO solid Main Characters

- A Primary Main (your go-to main who you know the complete ins and outs of that character to the best of your ability)
- A Secondary Main (A character that strongly that fills the gaps that the Primary cannot do properly, while also being able to properly handle his/herself in battle)

Having a pocket character imo means that you're just lazy as hell to fully learn the character's strengths and weaknesses and are looking for the easy way out.
 
Main: Alpha
Pocket: Viola, Mitsurugi, Yoshimitsu, Nightmare, Algol, Patroklos.

Its like SF - know your mains, know your opponent and know the matchup.
Crucially, apply and exploit ALL THREE. Counterpicking in this game I feel is a necessity for almost anyone.

... Except Keev, obviously, lol.
 
Main: Alpha
Pocket: Viola, Mitsurugi, Yoshimitsu, Nightmare, Algol, Patroklos.

Its like SF - know your mains, know your opponent and know the matchup.
Crucially, apply and exploit ALL THREE. Counterpicking in this game I feel is a necessity for almost anyone.

... Except Keev, obviously, lol.

Keev gets away with so much crap, it makes me sad, like players not teching GS K BE and not punishing GS A and his crouch throw attempts. If the players could punish this bad behavior properly, he wouldn't be such a threat. People just don't know the matchup!
 
Keev gets away with so much crap, it makes me sad, like players not teching GS K BE and not punishing GS A and his crouch throw attempts. If the players could punish this bad behavior properly, he wouldn't be such a threat. People just don't know the matchup!

Keev does get away with a lot of stuff but, then again, most people do in tournies (especially when you're up against a good, known player). I think most of the reason people kept staying on the ground was because he kept mixing it up with unblockable setups and 1a (and I'm pretty sure the 1a trapped in those situations).
 
1A can trap in a situation after GS K BE, but if you have slow reflexes, you'll get hit by it. I believe that by doing a LEFT ukemi (NM's right) you avoid most of his trap options, like 1A and 3B.

Small Edit: Thanks for the heads up it was left ukemi not right! I didn't know off-hand which one was it
 
To answer your question, LostProvidence, I voted "under certain circumstances."

If you're confident with a specific match up, I don't see the problem with it. As everyone else mentioned, it's all about the W. Personally I do/will counter pick if I feel need be. It's a strategy that explores even more into the competitive side of fighting games:
- Will the opponents know each other and expect a certain match up?
- Will players be able to counter pick efficiently
- Is it a personal counter pick rather than a character counter pick?
the list goes on...

Basically, it comes down to pure skill/knowledge of the game. Which is what it should be. Counter picking is a viable tournament strategy, and I encourage players to indulge.

EDIT:

I believe that everyone should have TWO solid Main Characters

- A Primary Main (your go-to main who you know the complete ins and outs of that character to the best of your ability)
- A Secondary Main (A character that strongly that fills the gaps that the Primary cannot do properly, while also being able to properly handle his/herself in battle)
If you're for counter picking, the best thing to go about it is learning each character on a equal note.

Having a pocket character imo means that you're just lazy as hell to fully learn the character's strengths and weaknesses and are looking for the easy way out.
Easy way out to what? I have several "pocket characters." Some have more universal tools than others, which makes it easier to be/become skilled with said character. On a personal note, having pocket characters has helped me familiarize with certain match ups. I fail to see laziness in pocketing 10 different characters, and being solid.
 
Yeah, I was a character loyalist in SC4. No matter what, I would always play NM in a tournament. I had pretty decent matchup knowledge, so I could handle a bunch. But of course, there were those matchups I struggled with.

However, in 5, I'm still a character loyalist - however I'm not afraid to play some other characters in local tournaments. But when it comes to majors or big money, its all Nightmare. I'm most comfortable with him, and I know how to handle most situations with him.

Pretty much, go with what you're comfortable with. If you love your character enough to have the faith to win, go for it. Same is true for counterpicking. Nothing wrong with it.
 
Is it really counter-picking if you're running to Mitsurugi, since he counter-picks the entire roster?

Also I seem to be physically incapable of playing any character that doesn't have an agA or a long range 236B so counter-picking is not something I'm personally good at. However, let me say that counter-picking is what won me the Great Seattle Chicken Match of 2012, in which I handily defeated G1 using my awesome Dark Jedi tactics - to quote:

greatone1939 said:
I thought that little stabby thing (1B) was a high!

So if you know they're not up to snuff, it goes like this: The weak will die, and that is all. :sc4app1:
 
1A can trap in a situation after GS K BE, but if you have slow reflexes, you'll get hit by it. I believe that by doing a right ukemi (NM's left) you avoid most of his trap options, like 1A and 3B.

It's a left ukemi, but where the hell were you before MLG?! (Just tested it).

Is it really counter-picking if you're running to Mitsurugi, since he counter-picks the entire roster?

Yes! And I'm a dirty counterpicker! Mits 2 gud.

I think I should actually practice Mits and play him at another tournament! Mwuahaha!
 
To answer your question, LostProvidence, I voted "under certain circumstances."

If you're confident with a specific match up, I don't see the problem with it. As everyone else mentioned, it's all about the W. Personally I do/will counter pick if I feel need be. It's a strategy that explores even more into the competitive side of fighting games:
- Will the opponents know each other and expect a certain match up?
- Will players be able to counter pick efficiently
- Is it a personal counter pick rather than a character counter pick?
the list goes on...

Basically, it comes down to pure skill/knowledge of the game. Which is what it should be. Counter picking is a viable tournament strategy, and I encourage players to indulge.

EDIT:


If you're for counter picking, the best thing to go about it is learning each character on a equal note.


Easy way out to what? I have several "pocket characters." Some have more universal tools than others, which makes it easier to be/become skilled with said character. On a personal note, having pocket characters has helped me familiarize with certain match ups. I fail to see laziness in pocketing 10 different characters, and being solid.


@Xeph:I stand corrected.

Also, I picked up Mitsurugi only because I used him as my third Main back in SC4 (He was the first guy I played Soul Calibur with!)

I guess it's my luck that Mitsu just so happened to be top tier in this game.
 
Yoshi's reach is bad enough that in certain matchups he's rendered almost useless. I'll counterpick in those matchups if I am obviously being outplayed with range and simply cannot get in. I have a make-shift cast of pocket characters (Cerv, Algol, Oprah, Aeon, and Nightmare) that I will use depending on which I think has the best chance against a specific play style.Side stepping my shit every time for no reason? Aeon's 66A all day erryday. Spacing me out with a very small life lead every time? Algol bubbles and Qflips 'til the cows come home. Abusing a range move that's -14? Oprah stabs all up in your shit. Back dash wrecking my life? Dread Captain Cervantes wants a word. Nightmare is really just used as a complete desperation pick (this used to be Maxi pre-nerf). Cerv is probably my favorite considering I mained him for almost every other SC game but IV.

I used Algol for almost an entire tournament for the first SCV tournament I entered because nobody could figure out 6BBB was high. Good times.
 
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