Game breaking : Ivy nearly duplicate animation 2B+K and 2A+G but require different guard.

Rezildur

[09] Warrior
Sorry, I don't agree. I actually think its really easy to tell which one she is going to do. For the low throw, she only starts the animation with one hand and brings it back and over her head. The 2B+K animation starts with both hands in front of her head. People will learn to react to this.
 

fukou_da_man

[12] Conqueror
Sorry, I don't agree. I actually think its really easy to tell which one she is going to do. For the low throw, she only starts the animation with one hand and brings it back and over her head. The 2B+K animation starts with both hands in front of her head. People will learn to react to this.
I doubt you could learn to react to anything.
 

werD

[01] Neophyte
Ivy's 2A+G/2B+K needs to change. It's essentially giving Ivy an extra 'throw' opportunity at mid and long range. The only difference is instead of A/B break, it's 2G or G.

She'll be the only character who has the 50/50 opportunity to "throw" (60~ dmg 50/50 opportunity) at close, mid, and long range.

Most characters enjoy a low/mid mixup. However, the lows are usually:

-half the dmg of the mid, or less
-slow and reactable
-unsafe

Ivy enjoys a 'true' mixup at all ranges-- her low/mid is:

-same speed
-relatively safe
-Equal damage. 60~



Which other characters enjoy such mixup options?


Hey, I'm an ivy main and would enjoy having an even easier time to kick ass. But in the interest of balance....
 

babalook

[10] Knight
I'm not sure the fact that she has a long range un-reactable low is the problem, it's that it catches step, can RO, can wall splat, does more damage than any other low in the game (barring zas's 1BB with curses), and it's safe.
 

hellbottom

それであなたがたは,主の恩恵のどれを嘘と言うのか。
Sometimes I really wonder if the people complaining have played other fighting games.

You are basically complaining about not being able to block a 50/50 on reaction.

Just like a Devil Jin's Hel lsweep/Mid mix-up in Tekken, there are certain conditions that must be met before it can be a 50/50. This creates a meta around this mix-up in the DVJ match-up. In order to apply the 50/50 mixup, DVJ's opponent must first be in range (obviously), secondly, the opponent must not be stepping left, otherwise they would avoid the hell sweep all together, which then forces you to use moves that tracks right..etc

The same with Ivy, her strength in that range is being emphasized by this 50/50 mix-up. Namco has given her that range. If you don't want to suffer through it, then you would need to take measures to negate it. You can't just be in her optimal range and complain about the whole concept of a 50/50 mix-up in fighting games.

Ivy enjoys a 'true' mixup at all ranges-- her low/mid is:

-same speed

If they don't have the same approximate speed then they can be option selected, rendering them not a mix-up.

-relatively safe

Blocking the mix-up may not be the best solution. There may be better ones. But still, if that is the case, I agree that this needs to be addressed. The Ivy player must pay if they guess wrong.

-Equal damage. 60~

Typical of 50/50s
 

Party Wolf

Administrator
Sometimes I really wonder if the people complaining have played other fighting games.
We do. I have played Tekken myself actually.

You are basically complaining about not being able to block a 50/50 on reaction.
This is basically incorrect considering other 50/50s are in the game.

Just like a Devil Jin's Hel lsweep/Mid mix-up in Tekken, there are certain conditions that must be met before it can be a 50/50. This creates a meta around this mix-up in the DVJ match-up. In order to apply the 50/50 mixup, DVJ's opponent must first be in range (obviously), secondly, the opponent must not be stepping left, otherwise they would avoid the hell sweep all together, which then forces you to use moves that tracks right..etc
It sounds like you are failing to see what that condition is in relation to Ivy. All she needs is *some* distance in order to apply it. You can't sidewalk out of the 2A+G, so she isn't *forced* to change it up unless you hold forward and manage to reach her range 0. She's also a zoner on top of that, so you have to work your way in on top of not being able to be rewarded with correct blocking on the 50/50. Now you're at her range 0 after theoretically beating all of the conditions, then she has a 50/50 between an untechable throw up close and a mid. Same issue, but you can be rewarded for correct blocking, so it balances out. So now we understand that she has a worse range 0, but now all she needs to do to reset that range 1.5 or more, all she needs is meter to spend on a Soul Charge. Pretty easy conditions relative to what the defender is required to do.

P.S. Devil Jin is easily top 5 in Tekken on top of being an awful comparison since he isn't a zoner grappler.

The same with Ivy, her strength in that range is being emphasized by this 50/50 mix-up. Namco has given her that range. If you don't want to suffer through it, then you would need to take measures to negate it. You can't just be in her optimal range and complain about the whole concept of a 50/50 mix-up in fighting games.
That would make sense if the optimal range wasn't easy to control.

If they don't have the same approximate speed then they can be option selected, rendering them not a mix-up.
Did you... see what the mix up is?

Blocking the mix-up may not be the best solution. There may be better ones. But still, if that is the case, I agree that this needs to be addressed. The Ivy player must pay if they guess wrong.
The solution isn't reasonable as it limits the game to move forward or get a projectile. There's no 3D movement that can be taken advantage of against Ivy until you reach range 0

Typical of 50/50s
Not typical in SC6 without meter with that risk/reward on top of it.
 

Xeph

#TRYHARD
Sometimes I really wonder if the people complaining have played other fighting games.

You are basically complaining about not being able to block a 50/50 on reaction.

Just like a Devil Jin's Hel lsweep/Mid mix-up in Tekken, there are certain conditions that must be met before it can be a 50/50. This creates a meta around this mix-up in the DVJ match-up. In order to apply the 50/50 mixup, DVJ's opponent must first be in range (obviously), secondly, the opponent must not be stepping left, otherwise they would avoid the hell sweep all together, which then forces you to use moves that tracks right..etc
In Ivy's 2A+G case, her 50/50 is range 2-3. A bit different from DJ. As someone mentioned before, Ivy's 2A+G seems to not be step-able. Which can make this move annoying hard to deal with in SOULCALIBUR.

side note: Fighting her up close, you're pretty much in a 50/50 again assuming said Ivy player's SS is on point.

Also, DJ's hellsweep is launch punishable on block. Ivy's mid-long range low/MID (which lethal hits on ducking opponents) isn't as simple as just blocking it and punishing. Not all 50/50's are fair.. or rather not all 50/50's share the same risk/reward.

The same with Ivy, her strength in that range is being emphasized by this 50/50 mix-up. Namco has given her that range. If you don't want to suffer through it, then you would need to take measures to negate it. You can't just be in her optimal range and complain about the whole concept of a 50/50 mix-up in fighting games.

I'm sure there's things we haven't seen yet in the game that's a direct counter to Ivy's supreme zoning abilities. I believe the complaints are more stemmed of how strong this particular long range mix up is, and how strong Ivy's zoning game is in general (66A, 66(A).

Also, you are comparing DJ to Ivy. DJ is considered high tier in Tekken.
 

hellbottom

それであなたがたは,主の恩恵のどれを嘘と言うのか。
In Ivy's 2A+G case, her 50/50 is range 2-3. A bit different from DJ. As someone mentioned before, Ivy's 2A+G seems to not be step-able. Which can make this move annoying hard to deal with in SOULCALIBUR.

side note: Fighting her up close, you're pretty much in a 50/50 again assuming said Ivy player's SS is on point.

Also, DJ's hellsweep is launch punishable on block. Ivy's mid-long range low/MID (which lethal hits on ducking opponents) isn't as simple as just blocking it and punishing. Not all 50/50's are fair.. or rather not all 50/50's share the same risk/reward.



I'm sure there's things we haven't seen yet in the game that's a direct counter to Ivy's supreme zoning abilities. I believe the complaints are more stemmed of how strong this particular long range mix up is, and how strong Ivy's zoning game is in general (66A, 66(A).

Also, you are comparing DJ to Ivy. DJ is considered high tier in Tekken.

I am using DVJ mixup here as an example of an un-reactable 50/50 in a fighting game, not comparing them on any other level or DVJ as a character to Ivy, since they're in totally different games which have totally different systems. Think of any 50/50 in any other game and apply what I said to that.

Also, DJ's hellsweep is launch punishable on block. Ivy's mid-long range low/MID (which lethal hits on ducking opponents) isn't as simple as just blocking it and punishing. Not all 50/50's are fair.. or rather not all 50/50's share the same risk/reward.



I mentioned that it needs to be addressed if it's truly the case that Ivy doesn't get punished if opponent guesses right.

But still, if that is the case, I agree that this needs to be addressed. The Ivy player must pay if they guess wrong.
 

hellbottom

それであなたがたは,主の恩恵のどれを嘘と言うのか。
We do. I have played Tekken myself actually.

What I said apply to people who complain about the reactablity of the 50/50 mixup (as per Gifs) i.e. having the same animation. Not people complaining about other particularities of the move.

It sounds like you are failing to see what that condition is in relation to Ivy. All she needs is *some* distance in order to apply it. You can't sidewalk out of the 2A+G, so she isn't *forced* to change it up unless you hold forward and manage to reach her range 0. She's also a zoner on top of that, so you have to work your way in on top of not being able to be rewarded with correct blocking on the 50/50. Now you're at her range 0 after theoretically beating all of the conditions, then she has a 50/50 between an untechable throw up close and a mid. Same issue, but you can be rewarded for correct blocking, so it balances out. So now we understand that she has a worse range 0, but now all she needs to do to reset that range 1.5 or more, all she needs is meter to spend on a Soul Charge. Pretty easy conditions relative to what the defender is required to do.

P.S. Devil Jin is easily top 5 in Tekken on top of being an awful comparison since he isn't a zoner grappler.

Read previous reply. I am not comparing DVJ as a character to ivy nor disagreeing with other complaints regarding the mixup's cheapness when it comes to risk/reward. My post was mainly about OP post.
 

werD

[01] Neophyte
You are basically complaining about not being able to block a 50/50 on reaction.

Noo... I'm claiming her low/mid mixup is the most powerful in the game and doesn't follow the 'principles' of SC mixups.


Let me try from another perspective. Ivy's low (2A+G) is OP, and doesn't follow the principles of SC mixups.



Principles of Soul Calibur lows:

1) Lower dmg than character's best mid mirror move
2) Slower than mids
3) If high dmg and fast, then low is unsafe


So, If the low is high dmg:
1) slow 2) unsafe

If the low is quick:
1) Dmg is low, or is unsafe



Ivy's 2A+G is high dmg, quick, and safe. It also completely synergizes with her 2+BK moves, and makes them both much stronger. This may be the truest, purest mixup in the soul series aside from A vs B throws.


Equal dmg is Typical of 50/50s

Aside from throws, no. The low option is almost always far less dmg (like half), or slow, or very unsafe.



We'll look at the mixups options for SC2, since that's all I know (but i think the newer soul series are similar in principle). We'll assume the mids are combo'd.


Xianghua:
MID : 3B (60~) vs LOW: 3A (25~ [less dmg, slower, unsafe]) (CH 3AK, 3B is situational)

Soph:
MID: 3B/44B (55~) vs LOW: 1K (25~, [less dmg, slower, unsafe) or 1AA (slower, unsafe)

Yosh from 1AAA:
MID: WSK (~60) vs LOW: FC3K (25~, less dmg, unsafe)

NM:
MID: 3B (70~) vs LOW: legsweep/flapjack (30-40~ less dmg) or 1A (unsafe, super slow, unsafe)

Cervantes:
MID: 3B (70~) vs LOW: 1K (20~) or 1A (unsafe, super slow)





Now look at SC6 Ivy.
MID: 2B+K (60~) vs LOW: 2A+G (60~; SAME SPEED, SAME DMG, and SAFE ON BLOCK',)




Hey man, if the developers want to buff everyone's lows, that's fine and i'll deal with it lol. I'm an ivy main too if ivy stays like this i'll just have an even easier time winning, but lets call it for what it is.
 

Marginal

Chikara Sashimi
Easiest way for a non SC player to conceptualize this...

Imagine Guile. Now give him a spinning piledriver that bounces people back to full screen. That's basically what we're describing here.
 

HolyCarp

[14] Master
Now look at SC6 Ivy.
MID: 2B+K (60~) vs LOW: 2A+G (60~; SAME SPEED, SAME DMG, and SAFE ON BLOCK',)
Both of these attacks lose to moving forwards and then launch punishing her after she whiffs.

2A+G and 2B+K are not game breaking; once people are familiar with these moves, we will see them get punished hard.
I see that 2A+G could do with toning down given how oppressive it is for any characters who rely on mid-range movement, and it will be basically broken vs casual players, but this witch hunt seems a bit much to me.
 

Marginal

Chikara Sashimi
I see that 2A+G could do with toning down given how oppressive it is for any characters who rely on mid-range movement, and it will be basically broken vs casual players, but this witch hunt seems a bit much to me.
Then there is no witch hunt.
 

GreatOne1939

I Knew It!!!
Easiest way for a non SC player to conceptualize this...

Imagine Guile. Now give him a spinning piledriver that bounces people back to full screen. That's basically what we're describing here.
How would you know this? You obviously don't play any other fighting game. It's said right there in the first line.
 

SpiritSiegfried

[01] Neophyte
We won't really know if this is all staying in when the full game releases, there might be even more worse stuff that will be found when the game gets released worldwide. Im taking all this with a grain of salt
 

Ramus

[14] Master
We won't really know if this is all staying in when the full game releases, there might be even more worse stuff that will be found when the game gets released worldwide. Im taking all this with a grain of salt
That is the whole point a of a beta build, to field test certain things and tune them up. For the most part people have been really favorable for the game's balance, Ivy is particular has become a contingency point and not her as a whole, but a few key moves that could use some nerfing.
 

Pyrrus

[14] Master
A couple options to fix this issue are :

1. Make the area of the grab smaller
2. Have it be blocked the same way as 2B+K
3. Make it a soul charge move
4.Lower the damage or take the wall splat/ring out properties out
5. Give it a longer recovery if whiffed
6. Give it a voiceline/sound cue
7. Extreme option is to remove the grab
8. Or just make it so she cant cancel the move and has to commit to it due to the strength of the move.

I'm not saying that the move isnt ridiculous because it is, but I think it can be fixed in a simple way. If you nerf the move too hard it'll be useless. So let's relax and know that this issue will be taken care of.

Soul Calibur 6 seems to be taking a completely different route than 5 so Im pretty confident that the game will receive the needed balance patches that SC5 didnt get. We will just have to wait and see through time
 

Robert_J_King

Royal Impact Style
A couple options to fix this issue are :

1. Make the area of the grab smaller
2. Have it be blocked the same way as 2B+K
3. Make it a soul charge move
4.Lower the damage or take the wall splat/ring out properties out
5. Give it a longer recovery if whiffed
6. Give it a voiceline/sound cue
7. Extreme option is to remove the grab
8. Or just make it so she cant cancel the move and has to commit to it due to the strength of the move.

I'm not saying that the move isnt ridiculous because it is, but I think it can be fixed in a simple way. If you nerf the move too hard it'll be useless. So let's relax and know that this issue will be taken care of.

Soul Calibur 6 seems to be taking a completely different route than 5 so Im pretty confident that the game will receive the needed balance patches that SC5 didnt get. We will just have to wait and see through time

Reducing tracking is probably the best option, maybe a damage reduction as well since the mixup is getting folks lethal hit for crouching the 2B+K mid. Does she have a voiceline for 2B+K in this game? I know she did in SC5.
 

Maedhros

[12] Conqueror
Out of those possibilities, I like the sound que (something like Ivy's "ah-hah!" in Japanese when she did 3(a) in sc5), as well as it being a soul charge state move.
I would also add a possibility to change the move's initialization animation for it to differ more from 2b+k.
Maybe we'll see some new developments if we get a new build for Gamescom, though that's a big IF.