Mixups and mind games, a lehmans guide.

S

Synraii

[14] Master
I just realised nobody has bothered to make a mixup/mindgame thread yet, so: At the risk of embarrassment - here goes.

1. Stance roulette
Siegfried has four interchangeable stances - shifting freely from one to the other is integral to any Siegfried's mind games (yes, even yours jink ;P)
A lot of low-mid level players forget that this can also lead to excellent punishing, for example: SCH carries a decent step and SSH has a medochre backstep. Stances remove the ability to guard but that doesn't mean we can't dodge - don't be put off, properly executed you can bait whiffs or overly unsafe moves from your opponent.

When on the offence in stance with Siegfried, pressure is key - 2A generally face rapes his stances for instance, but scare tactics are nevertheless remarkably effective. For instance: iWS[ B] , SCH K, 6B+K.
Even if you are at advantage you do not necessarily need to attack, it is often much more effective to use roulette and scare a guard out of your opponent - OOPS. When a guard is forced a proficient Siegfried can do pretty much whatever he likes, be it further transitions, cancels, attacks or in my case teabagging ^^. In any case it gives you enough breathing room to really focus your offence.

2. Stance cancelling
This annoys me, so many Siegfrieds will happily switch stances and yet so few consider cancelling them as a part of their roulette, consider SRSH - all but the A can be stepped left, many players will thus step guard rather than interrupting, so why not cancel? Cancelling will typically give you one free quickish shot at your opponents defence - capitalise! ag:A frametraps, cancelling into 2[A+B] makes it trickier to read and 3A will punish twitchducks nicely. It can lead to spacing options, throw mixups, safe pokes - experiment, the possibilities are practically endless.

ag:A - The Jink Slash

We all know, love and abuse this move: catches step, advantage on step guard, great range, spaces, good damage, stance option but most importantly it is shiny.
Shiny is good.
Both of siegfrieds just inputs: ag:A and B:4 give good advantage on block, leading to a free poke, but against inexperienced players - a FREE CH 3, wall combos, RO potential, terror slap juggle - good and demoralising in any circumstance. It isn't flawless, 3B is unsafe and it only frametraps i14/slower moves? Anyway, the true frametrap is 6K, but it sucks so I won't mention it any further.
As these two moves offer potentially 60ish extra damage your opponent will be wary - humor him, save them up don't follow them up, let them poke your guard, bait them - better to cripple them at an oppertune moment than to throw them out freely, and be punished for it.

4.SBH - the shield

As I said before, 2A generally facerapes Siegfried stance roulette - which is why we have base hold. Whilst it does contain the launcher and A leads to wall combos it's most important property is it's auto impact. It will impact ALL horizontal attacks if timed properly and it carries a simultaneous tech duck. This is the key to his stance mixups , combining their dodging ability gives him his pressure, SBH takes horizontals and highs out of the equation, SCH will step, SSH causes short range whiff. You will find your opponent will have one or two B&B pokes and one of these options will catch it, don't block - use the stance! Eg. Amy's 2B+K/6BB can be caught by SCH step and SBH ducks 6BB. Experiment.

Phantom mixups
More correctly called a+kA mixups.
We all know the cross combos:
A+K A A B
A+k K
Etc. Etc.
Should you slide the A from A+K you will skip the A+K, and this applies to every hit of the slash combo, meaning you can skip straight to the lows of the phantom combo, giving a harder to react to and considerably safer double grounder beta option. A into chief, A A into side A2AA into triple grounder, WS[ B] followup mixup, the possibilities go on. These moves are not in the movelist, but provide a whole new way of entering stances, piercing guards and generally being badass, LEARN THEM, it can reverse fights.

If anyone has other ideas post them below, I'll be editing my post as I come up with new ideas.
Untill then, keep stance dancing!
 
great job Synraii! while my stance roulette is somewhat weak due to my safe style, you do indeed have some wonderful tactics posted here.

BTW 3B SCH K frame traps i16 or slower, collides with i15. but its good because it prevents your opponent from LNC punishing ur 3B.

some things i would like to add. (kinda tired right now, so i'll probably come back and revise it later to make certain points more clear, and make it all make more sense.)

5.Tip Game

while siegfried is indeed punishable, he can chip at most opponents with almost any move from relative safety. using this tou your advantage u can often provoke your opponent to whiff, easily throwing them right into the middle of a stance punish/mixup. this can be abused in many ways, such as using a move that is - on grd but creates space between u and your opponent. the negative frames will provoke your opponent to run in, but if your already executing an attack when they come in, they will either be punished, thrown into a mixup, or into a stance mixup. Another way is to chip away at maximum range with a variety of his unsafe lows. since at tip, most characters cannot actually connect a punish from such a distance(save maybe sophitia, raphael, another sieg player), this allows you to do almost anything you want. punish their whiffed punish, use his great front step to jump in for a grab mixup ~ uki, attempt a stance mixup, enter stance roulette, the possibilities are almost endless. tip game can also provoke your opponent to attack when you have the advantage in a flustered attempt to close the distance. and as for counter spacing, siegfrieds frontstep can allow him to counter most spacing tactics if utilized properly. beware that while tip game is very advantageous, the actual spacing range for it to be effective is very small. get to close and you'll eat your standard punish mixups, pratically giving away the free damage you were attempting to provoke in the 1st place. but getting too far can be EXTREMELY dangerous, as not only does it give them a free pass to run in and close of your space advantage, it also allows them to use almost any move/mixup to both punish your whiff and create extreme amounts of pressure.

6.Poke-Soul Crush game
This is another very important aspect to balance for siegfried. he has an EXTREMELY strong SC game, being that he has alot of strong moves, alot of which are safe and moderate speed. the 2 disadvantages to this being unable to deal with step, and not taking advantage of guaranteed damage, which if lost too often can hinder your game in the long run. Siegs poke game is also very good, often leading to stance mixups, which provides extreme mental pressure if utilized properly, giving high damage rewards ect. however, used alone, u often are left whittling your opponent down, with some mental threat for big damage, but no physical threat of victory other than the the raw, guaranteed damage you utilize, while your soul gauge is left taking all of the hits, easily undoing all of your efforts with a soul crush. while moderately effective tools on their own, utilizing both can be extremely important for creating pressure while remaining in relative safety. combine this with a powerful stance roulette, the jink slash, fear advantage, an effective tip game, and you become a force to be reckoned with.
 
Hahaha, thanks. As we all know I'm a hardcore gambler with regards to safety but thanks for the more... Balanced view. My schizophrenic style I find causes more lockups and hesitations in my opponent than a more defensive game so for me my core SG damage move is B:4; it's my favoured point blank pressure move, don't ask me why but I never get poked out of it, + on block, high dmg, high sg damage. The + on Block let's me mixup frametrap combos and further heavy sg damage moves like 66B against less brain-dead opponents.
I love playing against aggressive opponents and it's amazing how bloody quickly my opponent turns aggressive when there gauge is flashing red 40 seconds into round 1 ^^.
My key strategy generally is to use the gauge to scare, as soon as they turn aggressive through necessity, I've won. They can recite frames till they're blue in the face but going one on one with the offence of my Siegfried, it takes a steam train to keep me from getting up.
In challenging fights I'm infamous for passing up free damage, even match winning damage to force further block and keep that gauge crippled.
Mind you, I'm an extreme in that sense - very few siegfrieds take it as far as I do so maybe my strategy is flawed - even if it is, only a handful of players have broken me offline.
 
Versus Guard (VG), On Hit (Hit), On Counter Hit (CHit), Tip Range (TR)

VG) agA, 1K/2A
VG) agA, b6, 1K/2A
VG) agA, b6, b6, 1K/2A

Hit) K, 1K/2A
Hit) K, b6, 1K/2A
VG+TR) K, 4B+K'A+B

CHit) 6K, K, 1K/2A
CHit) 6K, K, b6, 1K/2A

CHit) 1K, 1K (2nd 1K comes at i13)
CHit) 1K, 6K
CHit) 1K, WS'K
Hit) 1K, G
Hit) 1K, 4B+K'A+B
Hit) 1K, GI

2A, G
CHit+TR) 2A, 4B+K'A+B
2A, GI

VG) BB (for 2nd Hit)
VG+TR) BB, 4B+K'A+B
VG) 2B, 1K (Possible to gamble thanks to expected 2nd B + the -2 of 2B, 1K comes at i17, possible lure for CHit loops)
VG+TR) 2B, WS'A (Same but at tip range)
VG+TR) 2B, 4B+K'A+B
VG) 2B, GI

Hit) b6, 1K/2A
Hit) b6, b6, 1K/2A
VG+TR) b6, 4B+K'A+B

kA2A, 1K/2A
kA2A, b6, 1K/2A
kA2A, b6, b6, 1K/2A

VG) b4, K, 1K
VG) b4, 1K
VG+TR) b4, 2A
VG) b4, b6, 1K/2A
VG+TR) b4, 4B+K'A+B
VG+TR) b:4, 6B

VG+TR) A, kA
VG+TR) A, 6K

G, 1K/2A
G, K
G, b6
 
Really now? Well that "BB mixed 2B,1K poke" have worked well for me even offline heheheh.

Edit:
66A is good vs "Quick Highs Or Step" gambles, like when against Taki's PO'A or PO'Step, Sig's 66A's TC vs Highs & Anti-step.

SSH'B's GI step up:
Sig's 4B+K after guarding vs Taki's PO'K & do SSH'B quickly, if after her PO'K Taki does 1BA, Sig gets to GI & punish her 1BA's A. The good thing is that most Takis do PO'K,1BA pokes often, & tho is safer to just duck & punish Taki's 1BA, using SSH'B' GI is badass :) & more manly too heheheh.

Whiff trap with 4B+K (still under test)
4[A], 4B+K: 4B+K spaces more from RSH. Vs guarding opponent at Tip Range, Hilt poke into RSH & 4B+K,A+B. Sig should sway away from most character's BB attempts while punishing.

Whiff-whiff trap:
At zoning or spacing plays, measure the distance where your opponent is often provoked, just outside your measured distance, step in with a whiffed 4[A] to lure your opponent then whiff trap with 4B+K & SSH's counters. If Sig ends far enough from whiffing & possibly still attacking opponent, Sig can get SSH' on CHit & combo with SBH"[K] for 85 damage.
 
66A is greater than what any1 gives credit for...

66A can be used to counter opponents who enjoy rushing u with high verticles (eg 6~iagA)
66A can be used as an offensive way of dealing with grabs, especially vs astaroth
66A can W! and RO to siegs left
66A has good range
66A can TC 66A =3
66A(tip) can both space your opponent and make them fear stepping
since 66A can step kill alright, u can use 66A tip on forced block for increasing soul crush potential(66A is SC 13)
66A is very minorly punishable(only -13)
66A can be used out of step to counteract late high step kill horizontals
66A can be used for stance punishing at times
if ur opponent manages to duck 66A, 66K is a mixup
66A can be used out of FC as opposed to using WR A
and 66A looks pretty kool too :p

Infact im very interested in 66A now that u brought it up jink. i think i'll toy with it for a few days and post some grd mixups.
 
Hmm... I wonder what slayer's favourite move is? =P

Anyways what about B:4? High SG damage, +5 on block, shiny ^^, high damage and for some reason nobody ever seems to impact it, most don't even step it.
A manly move for manly men.
 
Synraii said:
Hmm... I wonder what slayer's favourite move is? =P

Anyways what about B:4? High SG damage, +5 on block, shiny ^^, high damage and for some reason nobody ever seems to impact it, most don't even step it.
A manly move for manly men.
Click to expand...

i now dedicate my life to mastering GIing b:4 :p

my favorite move...hmm...speaking practically that be...1B, iagA, 66A, b6, b4, SSH A_B, or a+kA without stance.

otherwise its 44K FTW!!!
 
Ah, good old 44K. Back in the day I once won a tournament with that move as the final blow. Happy days =3
 
IMO Sig's best range from opponent is between his 1K's tip & 2A's tip. At 1K's tip range Sig has more room for using K & back stepping then punish counter most characters BB & other quick short reactions from opponent. It similar to quick whiff punishing in tekken where the dodger evades the attacker's 1st move & counters the attacker's 2nd string move. Like Sig Ks Mitsu's G at tip range, Sig backsteps & evades mitsu's 1st B of BB, then Sig 6Ks Mitsu's 2nd B of BB. This is still experimental & might fail depending on opponent's time & choice reactions vs Sig's timing & confirm. After tip range K vs G Sig can backstep & backstep more with 4B+K, or simple 4B+K'A+B after K. It also depends on the opponent's character range.

4B+K'A+B is good for regaining space while whiff punishing, it can be used often from most attacks at tip range. Another set up example: Sig 1Ks & normal hits opponent, Sig ends in disadvantage & opponent BBs, Sig GIs opponent's BB, the GI might force your opponent to do a slower attack or throw to counter Sig's GI, that might allow Sig to do 4B+K'A+B after normal hitting with 1K.

IMO Sig's best poke mix starter is 1K or 2A, why? pretty simple, neutral G: after Sig Gs vs opponent's disadvantage but safe attacks, it gives advantage to Sig, if the opponent is smart she/he will G, if the opponent is not smart or is reckless she/he will attack at disadvantage, but regardless of opponent's choice Sig's 1K is very likely to hit, more likely than mids. 1K is low damage but is good for leading or luring reaction like TJs & LowGrd. 1K (i15) on counter hit gives Sig +2 for an i13~1K, that means that after counter hitting with 1K, Sig can interrupt most i14~2As, Sig can 1K,1K,1K... against 2A friendly opponents.

Sig can 1K for an i12~6K against opponent who tries i12 or i13 moves to trade/interrupt, but another 1K after counter hitting with 1K still has more chances to hit or counter hit. If the opponent is clever she/he will might try 2G, 3GI or TJ. if opponent G2, Sig gets WS'K, B or 4K. If opponent 3GIs, Sig gets 11_77A. If opponent TJs, Sig gets 6K or 6A for right RO.

b6 & 2A are good tools together at tip range. Set Up: b6 hits tip range, 2A counter hits at tip range, 4B+K'A+B hits if opponent reacts with quick short attacks, that might promote opponent to use a slower range attack next time. Mix Up: b6 hits at tip range, 2A counter hits at tip range, opponent tries slower range attack, Sig 6K, 6A (if opponent steps) or WS'K (If opponent's range move is a TC) & counter hits opponent's slower range attack that was meant to counter Sig's set up 4B+K'A+B.
sig can also try SSH'K for this mix up. If the opponent is clever she/he will try TCs like Asta's 66K.

K is good against shaky opponents who got 6K stunned. Like for: 6K counter hits, K stun hits, then 1K, or b6 if opponent G2.
 
CH 6K is largly + on fastest SHK (+11 i think...remember reading it somewhere.) as well, giving sieg an almost free stance transition. it also creates 3B/grab mixups, lets u throw off an A+K string, get a poke, or even throw in some agA. u can even go 6 ~ 4B+K SSH A+B if you're fast enough, and throwing in the SRSH change up + grabs to make opponents duck is nice too. u cud even switch it up into chief hold for a K/B/stance cancel grab mixup, or if your opponent turtles after the SHK even try for a slower move, like 44B SBH mixup, 1B spacing mixup, or even 1A to freeze them up even more and discourage step.

NOTE: Not sure y we posted this twice jink, so i'll throw mine in here too so ppl dont get confused...lol...even tho im confused by u :p
 
I love how we ourselves can't keep up with each other considering this is a guide for newer Siegfrieds ^_^.
Anyways, I'd say his best range is subjective:
Against someone like Cassandra I will play as close range as possible to counter her whiff punishing and when she tries to space with 214, which they all do, I get free 4Ks basically whenever I'm at minor disadvantage. However against say a Mitsu player I zone them to tip range - mid range may be his own best range but it takes that ridiculous 2KB, 3B point blank mixup out of the equation, not to mention it plays havoc with his stance games.
I don't think Siegs optimum range should ever be set in stone.
 
BBB pokes & mix ups >>> Cass, Talim. Figure it out. :)

Sig's range game always depends on the opponent range+speed. Sig vs Cass, Sophy, Mitsu, X, Raph Maxi is entirely different than Sig vs Sig, NM, Kilk, Asta, Zas, SM, Hilde, Ivy, Amy. Against quick shorties, tip range poking works well for regain space & counter, tip range best friend is 4B+K'A+B, figure it out.
Against rangers luring game works well, a simple hit with b6 can make the difference, luring's best friend is time+patience. Never take unnecessary risks if you are clearly winning the match by time, just back off, lure them in & counter, Sig has the initiative advantage in this situation. Pay extra attention to your opponent's reactions to figure their intentions, calculate by range first. Learn your opponent = winning.

Its almost the same principal for both situation but is the lead what's different.
 
Very true, just yesterday I was fighting martimouff from the kilik boards. I lost my head and let him zone me and as you would expect, I got raped =S. When I was consciously altering my spacing however it made for a much more interesting fight. Spacing, I think we can all agree doesn't get enough emphasis for such an important technique.
 
Siegfried can also gain alot of offensive power through attacking though risking a TC attack or box step for high hopes of whiff punish after minor disadvantage eg NH 1K, b6 blocked @ mid range, 3K hit in addition to his 4B+K SSH backstep game. this can also help keep the edge if ur opponent is trying to zone u. if they catch on and try to agressively punish u, u have them in a position where i can either force mind games or simply play it safe for good poking and punishing options until u feel ready enough to throw out a few risks again, since thats the best way siegfried can deal damage for the most part.
 
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