Nightmare's Movelist Changes and Move Speculation Thread

There two big changes in SCV. Although I was talking about a good low initially as a third option. His Soul Burst or Soul Guage dmg was also in consideration. And Daishi specifically showcased it as a forth option against turtlers.

Also the second big change, is his Auto GI CE...one thing he lacked in 4 especially against rushdown characters was a good anti pressure move. GSA was good, but too slow and unsafe on block. That CE will make players at least respect him enough not to do whatever they like once they get in.
His CE also leaves the opponent in prime position for a throw/mid mixup on wake up...worth considering.

I feel he definitely has stronger basics this time around.
 
KingAce said:
There two big changes in SCV. Although I was talking about a good low initially as a third option. His Soul Burst or Soul Guage dmg was also in consideration. And Daishi specifically showcased it as a forth option against turtlers.

Also the second big change, is his Auto GI CE...one thing he lacked in 4 especially against rushdown characters was a good anti pressure move. GSA was good, but too slow and unsafe on block. That CE will make players at least respect him enough not to do whatever they like once they get in.
His CE also leaves the opponent in prime position for a throw/mid mixup on wake up...worth considering.

I feel he definitely has stronger basics this time around.
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Im interested to see if you can combo into the CE. 3B CH perhaps? Or ground pressure CE in tech trap situation, charge it full and hit them for 220 damage lol.
 
Engared said:
Im interested to see if you can combo into the CE. 3B CH perhaps? Or ground pressure CE in tech trap situation, charge it full and hit them for 220 damage lol.
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I was thinking on that too, if he could combo into his CE w ground stun i think, maybe after GS B, GS B into GS CE ground stun, lol sounds sick but who knows 8)
 
Engared said:
Im interested to see if you can combo into the CE. 3B CH perhaps? Or ground pressure CE in tech trap situation, charge it full and hit them for 220 damage lol.
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There's a green glow around Nightmare when he does 236236...

Edit: My bad, that was Maxi's AGi. Damn.
 
I would say that's the fault of the player then. Daishi was in a sort of panic end-of-round mode and was going strictly for risky 50/50 mixups.

On the topic of mids.
- I wonder if it's possible to duck the second hit of the 4KK BE and interrupt NM before the third hit.
- The block pushback on 3AA might be a double edged sword, or at the very least NM needs to be careful not to have the first hit pushback and the second hit whiff.
- 66K might be the closest thing to a fast safe mid. It might be hard to learn to use it effectively, but I've seen Keev have pretty good success with this move in SC4: he would run up into throw range and mixup with a throw and 66K. I'll try to find a video for reference.

EDIT: Kinda? You see a lot of 11K as well. When you see 66K hit, it sets up for another throw mid mixup.
 
microgamer said:
I would say that's the fault of the player then. Daishi was in a sort of panic end-of-round mode and was going strictly for risky 50/50 mixups.

On the topic of mids.
- I wonder if it's possible to duck the second hit of the 4KK BE and interrupt NM before the third hit.
- The block pushback on 3AA might be a double edged sword, or at the very least NM needs to be careful not to have the first hit pushback and the second hit whiff.
- 66K might be the closest thing to a fast safe mid. It might be hard to learn to use it effectively, but I've seen Keev have pretty good success with this move in SC4: he would run up into throw range and mixup with a throw and 66K. I'll try to find a video for reference.

EDIT: Kinda? You see a lot of 11K as well. When you see 66K hit, it sets up for another throw mid mixup.
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Yes, it is the fault of the player if they keep spamming throws even though they are getting ducked. However, the character is also at fault for lacking any compelling mids from standing that are around throw speed. In the video (watched half of it) Keev gets much more benefit from 11K than 66K. 66K has serious safety issues (the reverse mixup you suffer can be much worse than a raw 2A punish), and punishing duckers with 3K is about as rewarding as doing 1K to punish standing block. The only other mid I can think of until 33B/3B speed is 4K, and that is strictly an interrupt move. 11K was so multipurpose that I think losing it hurts him really bad, it's like taking away Sophie's BB. Right now the best solution for a quick, safe mid is probably to use 66K without GS most of the time, and 66K6 on occasion.


On a different note, Nightmare should be better at standing block punishment in this game (something he has always struggled with) since aB was changed to 6B command. It's quick and the range is decent. Should give you some pressure options since you could vary between the regular 6B and 6(B) too.
 
Yeah Keev already hinted to that. He thought what NM lacked was a decent mid, fast and safe in 4 and he felt they hadn't addressed that for 5. Personally I favor 66KGS over 11K in 4 anyway. Those are two completely different philosophies on how to approach the character, because I see way more benefit with 66KGS.
 
hteng said:
how fast are WR B and WR K? those are pretty good mids?
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i16 and i15 respectively in SC4. However, in SC5 WR K is a headbutt so who knows, still looks pretty fast (hope it's safe...). I'm talking about his standing mids though, he's always been stronger for throw mixups from crouch state so I'm not too worried about that.
 
- 4K K BE: second hit is duckable on block, and the opponent can interrupt NM before the 6B-looking stab comes out.
- GS A: successful GI and hit now sends the opponent out of NM's grab range; really really lame (7:57)
 
4kA+B+K. You have to roll the BE commands. There is no room for hit confirming most of them, and certainly not Nightmare's. You'll see a lot of dropped GS k BEs because you have to mash that shit or it won't come out. It takes some getting used to.

And yes it's a NC. Any time you can land a guaranteed 4k and you have meter it means you can land 4k BE, and I guess the JF B after. Without the extra hit it already does nearly 1/3 of a bar.

Pad players were also having a ton of trouble with his CE. So many random GS transitions.
 
There isn't a whole lot that shouldn't be obvious from videos.

The movelist changes were the biggest problem. I had trouble finding things, and not everything is where it seems like it would be. There's no more aB, which annoyed me because I like that move. All a+k commands are gone, so no more of that. I couldn't get 1a, k out the few times I tried, though I'm certain I saw someone else do it (but I didn't see it hit so I don't know what it does). 3a+b is now 1b. Like everyone else, his movelist has been pared down a lot. There's plenty of stuff besides aB that's just gone. No more gs a+b, for example.

The new 2a is nice. Fast enough, even if the range and damage are meh. I love the new wrA, but it can be tough to land it. GS k BE tech traps into itself in the open, near walls it looks guaranteed (combo counter keeps going). It also scales really well, so 2 GS K BEs don't feel like a waste of meter.

The best thing I found all weekend was the 2b+k BE. I had to wonder why they kept such a trash move in the game, but the BE causes a quake stun. Quake stun for Nightmare = free 3b, b:A for very nice damage, and I'm pretty sure at least one of those is a clean hit move. However, it's just a break attack if they block it, so the ideal use is when they're out of attack range. Getting the quake stun is way better than getting a blocked break attack.

Timed fc3b can catch quick step when it's ending, which is useful.

His CE does not seem to have instant GI frames. There were several times where I tried to reaction CE moves and I would lose the meter and "Critical Edge" would pop up but I got hit anyway. Throws beat it completely and I'm relatively certain that other CEs will go through it. At least if they start later. It happened to me at least 2 times, once with Leixia's CE.

His ringout game seems limited without meter. GS k just doesn't do anything without the BE. No ring out, no wallsplat, no damage. In any situation where you're not trying to carry the opponent somewhere, or the range isn't too great, GS b is a better deal. 1a, gs b does good damage, but doesn't have as much range as 1a, gs k, so if the 1a hits too far out the gs b might whiff or they can recover in time to block it.

He builds meter fast with 2a+b and a+b. In fact, a+b is altogether a better move, despite losing the soul charge. It beats out more stuff and also hits grounded.

His throw range is still really good.

Edit: One more thing about his CE. Because of the new air GI and (supposedly) the mid-air damage bonus, if you catch a jumping move with his CE the damage is ridiculous--70% at least. Not sure how long that will last.
 
@Page- Did you test anymore tech-traps from GS K BE? Cause in theory if it reachs, 33B should also be a techtrap/ground-hit. And thats the minimum.

The stuff Daishi was doing was pretty cool and Keev seems to have developed some tech already.

Also what do you think about Nightmare overall? Is he good? Could use some work? Or hopeless? Or anywhere in between?

Also will you be maining Nightmare in SC5? If so, welcome to the Azure Brotherhood(TM).
 
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