Patch Wishlist

Pantocrator

Pantocrator

[10] Knight
Because on my point of view the character is far too weak. Here my suggestions list to make him stronger and competitive.
Like a lot of you know, I worked for FuturPress to elaborate this guide :
http://8wayrun.com/threads/soucalibur-v-the-official-guide-by-future-press.10310/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KsaIkazPmg&list=UUKJtYrlWaF3G0LIneEKoPew

So this list is not based on speculations or first impressions. It's the result of several months of work and analysis about the character and the game.
I'm doing this list because I really like this game. And I really want to make it balanced.
I'm hoping that Namco is really trying to make the game balanced. If not I guess they shoudn't take care about my post and my work. If yes I hope that they will like and take in consideration some ideas.

In red you will find the most necessaries. That Siegfried really need on my point of view.
The others ones are suggestions, that could help Siegfried a lot, to be stronger and more interesting to play. Move by move. But even if Namco make all of this change (that I don’t really expect…) , the character won't be broken, and I guess still not top tier. To be honest, I’m not sure if it could be enough. But that will depend mainly how strong they do this.

I don’t want to remove all of Siegfried weak points, it’s important for him to keep it on my point of view. For the game play interest. That’s why I will almost never ask for to make a move faster or safer. But he really need to compensate his weak points. A character with too much weak points and not enough strong aspect will be unplayable.


Whiff problems

3B : This move has whiff problems since the beginning. But Namco already try to fix it. But it's still whiffing for nothing unfortunately. Especially after JG. This move really have to work properly to allow Siegfried to be playable.
Few examples :
After JG : Pyrrah's CE, Patroklos's 66A BE .
In string : Nightmare's 4KK , Natsu's BB4A+B

22BB : This move is really whiffing for nothing now, even after a side step. It makes this move not really reliable on okizeme or zoning too. Maybe before he tracked a little too much, but now it whiffs too much and make this move not reliable and solid enough.

SCH B
Just please make Siegfried lock the opponent like before. Now this move is whiffing for nothing. Even after a succeded 2_8B+K. This move was already stepable. This move was strong and solid but not broken (stepable/ you have to go in stance/ +2 on block is not huge for a slow character for Siegfried/ the damage are Ok). Now it's very risky to use it, and it makes the 2B+K transistion loses its reward.
This move is very important and has to be solid on my point of view.

4KK
This one is less important. But the idea of this move was nice. It gives interesting punishement, especially when Siegfried doesn't have meter.
But the second one on hit whiff really often.
Few examples : if you try to punish GS A of Nightmare, 226 B of Pyrrah or 66K or Natsu.


Damage

Siegfried is one of the slower and more unsafe character in this game. His recovery are one of the longest too.
For this reasons, even if his range his excellent, he deserves top tier damage. Because he won’t have so much opportunities to attack, and will take a lot of risk at this moment.
Deal with fast character is more difficult than in SCIV because everyone is faster now. But not Siegfried.


Throws

Because against some character it’s too unsafe, or very difficult to use stance transition, this character need to throw. Especially because he is weak at close range.
This character is very slow, because of this it’s more difficult to have opportunities to throw. Instead of Natsu by example, who can make freeze very often the opponent.
For those reasons the character need decent throws. The range is excellent, and that’s good, he really need it. But it’s not enough.

I propose two ways to increase them.
-Increase damage, to have normal 50/55 damage
-Give an okizeme for the throws. Actually the opponent just have to ukemi back to avoid everything.

Instead of this, increase low throws can be a good idea too. By example make 3B guarantee after the FC 2 A+G.


Move by move

2A : 2 points damage more could be good.
3A : More damage
1AA : more damage and a better clean hit. The move is interesting now, because stepG doesn’t exist anymore. But it’s still slow and risky. The reward should be better.
66A : should breack the bar better. Or give +13 on block. It’s very slow and reactable. Not spammable.
BB : More damage
B6 : better frame advantage on block or on hit.
4B : Faster and more unsafe or safer with more damage or a NH stun. But for the moment it’s useless. For the range the move is not fast enough. It should have a compensation to make it interesting.
1B : First : the range for the AttackThrow should be better. Not max range, but it should works every time when the opponent get stunned.
Second : this move is still -16, but doesn’t do more damage. Near the edge this move is very risky against a lot of character (reverse RO punishement). This move deserve to do more damage. Normaly, or maybe with a Jf or a BE.
B4 : allow 3B as a combo
66B : more damage or more safe (like Nightmare's one).
22BB : More damage.
6K : Give a true combo in CH.
4KK : A better range could be nice.
22kA:2A : +3 on hit is not enough for this move. At high level it is not easy to use at all. So a better hit advantage could be nice, or 22kA:2AA NC. Please remove the shiny effect too. It’s not a JF at all, and because of this it will be impossible to use it a high level. Because of the light it’s more reactable.
A+B : whiff too much too.
SBH A2 : the cancel is very slow. It’s very easy to react and to take the frame advantage on Siegfried. So at high level, after this move the Siegfried player will be mixed or punished.
SCH A : on the left side the two hit are not NC.
SCH KBE : this move can have a clean hit very often. but it will add about 3 points in combo. So it's not useful at all. This move deserve more damage.


Stance transition

A lot of stance transition get nerfed. And the auto-gi get nerfed and is coming very slow from stance. It doesn't change so much the gameplay. Except against Natsu. Now the character is able to uses AA everywhere. Before this nerf, the Match up was already for Natsu (6-4or 7-3).
Now this match up is just impossible. It could be interesting to make some stance transition better again ( WR[A] by example) and to make the GI avalaible earlier again.



Now, here the list of moves that I never use. On my point of view they are totally useless. Even for casual player. It’s just suggestions to make them more usefull. That could make the character more interesting to play. But not especially stronger. It’s not necessary, but it could bring more satisfaction for Siegfried players.

2KKKKK : It could be like in SCIV: the hole string is combo on a grounded opponent. And the two first one are combo on a standing opponent.
11B : Make a NH stun or make him super tech crouch.
11K : Make it middle.
Second hit of 44BB : give him more damage.
236 B : faster or more damage.
Allow BT SSH 6B+K from face


Thanks for reading :-)
I'm waiting for any suggestion. I really would like that Siegfried's players help me to make this list better.
 
I would be happy with like 1/10 of what u said about the moves. He does need more dmg indeed.
If i had to chooce a couple of moves from the ones you said to get a change it would be one of the 22kA changes and B4, but instead of dmg followup on B4 it should catch left rolls again as it did in 4.

Other changes i would like to see would be SBH kA+B+K become safe for the cost of meter (come on...)
and pretty much the usual, give back instant 8wr moves (universal).
 
If this came from one of the best (no butt kissing here but you seem to be the only dedicated pro Sieg players) then some of these must happen. I for one don't want an OP Sieg I just want a competitive one. Also I want the other low tiers like to ZWEI and Viola to be buffed. I just want a balanced Soul Calibur game. Look at KOF XIII console that game is so balanced that even low tier characters have good chances to go toe to toe against top tiers. This looks like onr of those Sophie vs Rock matchup type of game. Even EGFloe is jumping the Natsu ship.
 
Also for a patch to happen these factors should be accomplished.

1.) Major gamebreaking Bugs should be shown in youtube to show interests in developers. (Mortal Kombat is really buggy and had numerous revisions)
2.) A major outcry in a character being too OP'd (Such is the case for Super Street Fighter 4 Arcade Edition when Yun, Yang, and Fei Long were considered overpowered that a majority of the fans cried for a patch)
A major part of the community should ask for it. Not necessarily major names but a handful of disgruntled Sieg players is not enough so that Namco thinks that an overhaul of the entire cast is needed not necessarily a tweak of a few cast members. (Again SSF4 AE it disgruntled the entire non HK Trio players not just the Ryu players or the Hakan players. Everyone who is not playing Yun, Yang, Fei were nerdraged with AE)
3.) Seeming dominance of certain characters in majors. (EVO 2011 had mostly Yuns and Feis with Fuudo (Fei) being the champ in top 16)

I don't want numerous revisions like MK9 had just one big revision ala SSF4 AE ver 2012. Don't care if it'll take months but these factors will be needed for a patch to be remotely possible.
 
Pantocrator said:
Whiff problems

3B : This move has whiff problems since the beginning. But Namco already try to fix it. But it's still whiffing for nothing unfortunately. Especially after JG. This move really have to work properly to allow Siegfried to be playable.
Few examples :
After JG : Pyrrah's CE, Patroklos's 66A BE .
In string : Nightmare's 4KK , Natsu's BB4A+B

22BB : This move is really whiffing for nothing now, even after a side step. It makes this move not really reliable on okizeme or zoning too. Maybe before he tracked a little too much, but now it whiffs too much and make this move not reliable and solid enough.

SCH B
Just please make Siegfried lock the opponent like before. Now this move is whiffing for nothing. Even after a succeded 2_8B+K. This move was already stepable. This move was strong and solid but not broken (stepable/ you have to go in stance/ +2 on block is not huge for a slow character for Siegfried/ the damage are Ok). Now it's very risky to use it, and it makes the 2B+K transistion loses its reward.
This move is very important and has to be solid on my point of view.

4KK
This one is less important. But the idea of this move was nice. It gives interesting punishement, especially when Siegfried doesn't have meter.
But the second one on hit whiff really often.
Few examples : if you try to punish GS A of Nightmare, 226 B of Pyrrah or 66K or Natsu.
Click to expand...
i agree with these. i've actually eaten CE's for my whiff punishment not tracking/whiffing through the opponent, which seems unreasonable especially since the whiff was their mistake and im trying to capatalize on it.

Pantocrator said:
Damage

Siegfried is one of the slower and more unsafe character in this game. His recovery are one of the longest too.
For this reasons, even if his range his excellent, he deserves top tier damage. Because he won’t have so much opportunities to attack, and will take a lot of risk at this moment.
Especially if you don't want to buff the side and backstep. Because he is the worst here.
Deal with fast character is more difficult than in SCIV because everyone is faster now. But not Siegfried.
Click to expand...
i agree with this too.

Pantocrator said:
Movement

Siegfried has so deal with the space during all of the match. Close range is catastrophic for him, and he should be able to escape or to whiff punish better (so to move better for this).
This character should have "normal" movement.
Click to expand...
never really noticed this outside of trying to backstep away from the opponent to create space. but i have noticed the whiffing whiff punishes. both those should be fixed, and maybe buff his backstep since its extremely difficult to retreat.

Pantocrator said:
Throws

Because against some character it’s too unsafe, or very difficult to use stance transition, this character need to throw. Especially because he is weak at close range.
This character is very slow, because of this it’s more difficult to have opportunities to throw. Instead of Natsu by example, who can make freeze very often the opponent.
For those reasons the character need decent throws. The range is excellent, and that’s good, he really need it. But it’s not enough.

I propose two ways to increase them.
-Increase damage, to have normal 50/55 damage
-Give an okizeme for the throws. Actually the opponent just have to ukemi back to avoid everything.
Click to expand...

i'd take the damage personally since he's already at around +30 for both throws.

Pantocrator said:
Instead of this, increase low throws can be a good idea too. By example make 3B guarantee after the FC 2 A+G.
Click to expand...
this would also be a great way to give us a tool to space the opponent, with how far 3B pushes back on grounded hit. something to aim for.

Pantocrator said:
Move by move

2A : 2 points damage more could be good.
3A : More damage
1AA : more damage and a better clean hit. The move is interesting now, because stepG doesn’t exist anymore. But it’s still slow and risky. The reward should be better.
66A : should breack the bar better. Or give +13 on block. It’s very slow and reactable. Not spammable.
BB : More damage
B6 : better frame advantage on block or on hit.
4B : Faster and more unsafe or safer with more damage or a NH stun. But for the moment it’s useless. For the range the move is not fast enough. It should have a compensation to make it interesting.
1B : First : the range for the AttackThrow should be better. Not max range, but it should works every time when the opponent get stunned.
Second : this move is still -16, but doesn’t do more damage. Near the edge this move is very risky against a lot of character (reverse RO punishement). This move deserve to do more damage. Normaly, or maybe with a Jf or a BE.
B4 : allow 3B as a combo
66B : more damage or more safe (like Nightmare's one).
22BB : More damage.
6K : Give a true combo in CH.
4KK : A better range could be nice.
22kA:2A : +3 on hit is not enough for this move. At high level it is not easy to use at all. So a better hit advantage could be nice, or 22kA:2AA NC. Please remove the shiny effect too. It’s not a JF at all, and because of this it will be impossible to use it a high level. Because of the light it’s more reactable.
A+B : whiff too much too.
SBH A2 : the cancel is very slow. It’s very easy to react and to take the frame advantage on Siegfried. So at high level, after this move the Siegfried player will be mixed or punished.
SCH A : on the left side the two hit are not NC.
SCH KBE : this move can have a clean hit very often. but it will add about 3 points in combo. So it's not useful at all. This move deserve more damage.


Stance transition

A lot of stance transition get nerfed. And the auto-gi get nerfed and is coming very slow from stance. It doesn't change so much the gameplay. Except against Natsu. Now the character is able to uses AA everywhere. Before this nerf, the Match up was already for Natsu (6-4or 7-3).
Now this match up is just impossible. It could be interesting to make some stance transition better again ( WR[A] by example) and to make the GI avalaible earlier again.


Now, here the list of moves that I never use. On my point of view they are totally useless. Even for casual player. It’s just suggestions to make them more usefull. That could make the character more interesting to play. But not especially stronger. It’s not necessary, but it could bring more satisfaction for Siegfried players.

2KKKKK : It could be like in SCIV: the hole string is combo on a grounded opponent. And the two first one are combo on a standing opponent.
11B : Make a NH stun or make him super tech crouch.
11K : Make it middle.
Second hit of 44BB : give him more damage.
236 B : faster or more damage.
Allow BT SSH 6B+K from face


Thanks for reading :-)
I'm waiting for any suggestion. I really would like that Siegfried's players help me to make this list better.
Click to expand...

i agree with most of what you said panto. if i had to choose a couple of things i'd absolutely like to see from this list just to make it a bit simpler, i'd narrow it down like this:

1) Fix whiffing issues. an attempt to punish an opponents mistake should not be a mistake within itself.
2a) all around general damage boost. it doesnt even have to be very much, just something noticeable so he doesnt get outdamaged by characters much faster than himself all the time.
2b) for some basic moves, damage should be specifically buffed to match the new system. examples include 1B and 2A.
3) standard grab damage (for sure)
4) better backstep or let us have FC A+G ~ 3B for spacing purposes just so we have a better time getting rushdown characters out of our face. or even better, allow us to have BT SSH 6B+K while facing forwards (i really like that idea pantocrator ^-^)
5) faster SBH aGI.
6) move specific:
  • allow 3B to combo off b4. b4 is already a pretty slow move as it is, landing it should give us some sort of benifit besides KND and minor frame advantage.
  • let us have a faster SBH a2 cancel
  • SCH A: make both hits NC at any angle
  • get rid of 2KKKKK's pushback on hit so that its possible to get a combo against a grounded opponent.
  • 22kA:2A: definitely more advantage on hit, both with its execution difficulty and its difficulty to land due to the flash.
  • 4B : Faster and more unsafe or safer with more damage or a NH stun. For the range the move is not fast enough.
  • buff either b6 hit frames to make it more + on hit, or buff its block frames to make it safer.
  • let 3B combo off CH 4K. would also give us another tool to space the opponent
 
ferkachu said:
I don't want numerous revisions like MK9 had just one big revision ala SSF4 AE ver 2012. Don't care if it'll take months but these factors will be needed for a patch to be remotely possible.
Click to expand...

The devs confirmed long ago they would follow the game, balance-wise, closely, and patch it as much as necessary. It'll probably consist of numerous revision, not a big overhaul. And I'm perfectly fine with that.

It seems way more fair than having to spend 6 months with a subpar character.
 
Slayer :
In fact I already removed the movement section part.
The distance covered by the side step is the worst in the game, but at least the speed is one of the best.

To everyone
It's not really pratical, I guess the best way to deal with it is to use the normal step only a close range. And the double step the rest of the time.
A normal step with Siegfried will never be effective at mid range.
It's not amazing, but I guess it fits to Siegfried's gameplay for Namco.
 
Of all the things listed, the whiffing of staple whiff punishers is definitely the biggest problem right now. This is my first week with the game and I cant begin to count the times where I shouldve gotten free damage (among them many round-deciding combos), but ended up getting punished instead.
I havent had a lot of troube with movement, but I can definitely see the utility of a bigger backstep for a spacing character like Sieg.
You know what, I can get behind everything listed here. Just bring back beta Sieg (with the exception of combo opportunities after CE maybe) and we're golden.
 
i only want better tracking, removal of the step while executing 8wr moves and a little of dmg more. You cant have Maxi hit an i16 TC for weeks SAFE move (6a+bA+B+K) and do 80+ dmg while Sieg does less with actual risks.
Maybe also a frame faster 4B and a day fast SCH A ><
 
Is it too much asked if B+K would auto-GI highs? Or horizontal kicks? It might broke the game as you can sidestep to B+K to beat anything.

Pretty please, Namco-chan :)
 
I saw Daishi's tweet seems there will be readjustments. PRAY for low tier buffs (not only Sieg but all the low tiers)
 
I'm worried that their might be no balance patch at all. Leaving us with an unbalanced CASUAL game. As a fan of the series I don't like the game to be labeled as such.
 
Very interesting post Pantocrator; I hope that Namco ask first to the people who make the SCV's Official's guide about WHAT and HOW MUCH patch the game to improve the balance.

How can we make SoulProject do this changes? I only have since last Saturday playing the game, but I actually notice the problems to evade fast characters as Natsu; in SC4 GI was a reliable option, also 6k and stepping was always a choice; right now EVADE is a dangerous option, cause most characters were equipped with very good anti step moves, so my first option against Natsu is always stay still and wait for the high move in the string... my major complaint.
 
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