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WuHT
Premium Moderator
I'm making the replacement thread here to set down the ground rules (not to poo-poo on anyone)
This one here, everyone is entitled to their own opinion (hence we dont need to go attack each other's ideas here), but please keep it to one post per person and edit your post if you change or have a new idea.
Discussion on your own and other people's ideas belong in the other appropriate threads. I will edit posts if people forget the purpose of this wishlist thread (its not a discussion thread fellows)
Guess popular opinion wants this to turn into a discussion thread, and i'm tired of deleting/merging posts.
SC5 Wishlist:
Fix hitbox/whiff/realignment issues
Better damage on pokes (10% to 20% damage increase max)
More useful auto-evades and aGIs.
"SC4 influenced wishlist"
I think it’s imperative that Raphael be given solid options when at frame disadvantage (good evades, tech crouches, VE, aGI) without changing the entire momentum of the round with 1 lucky guess.
Also, I believe he “should” be able to easily and fluidly switch between a spacing + poking game with stance-enhanced rushdown strings.
I don’t believe that he should be a 50/50 mid low mixup/knock down type character or the type to fish for a giant safe launcher combo where he proceeds to chase you down for wake-up pressure. His main source of damage should come primarily from pokes and then reading and reacting to the opponent's frustration with the proper evade/aGI/whiff bait/CH.
I do not see him being a great guard crusher (in SC4 his soul gauge to me was more mystical than physical damage), which should be compensated for him having many useable “invisible” low pokes to draw a reaction from the opponent safely.
This one here, everyone is entitled to their own opinion (hence we dont need to go attack each other's ideas here), but please keep it to one post per person and edit your post if you change or have a new idea.
Guess popular opinion wants this to turn into a discussion thread, and i'm tired of deleting/merging posts.
SC5 Wishlist:
- Bug/hitbox fixes – 22B crimple alignment fixed asap. As I understand it, there is only 4 possible angles that an opponent can crumple and when raph hits them at any angle other than directly in front, directly from the sides or directly from the back, there is a significant chance that his follow-through 3B will whiff due to the way the opponent collapses after eating 22B. This is easily replicated by stepping 45 degrees to either direction of your opponent to 22B and you'll see your opponent crumple 90 degrees and your 3B will whiff behind them as they crumple "forward" to raph's side. I don't know if its a simple fix to re-align the victim, or maybe a fatter 3B hit box (yes please!) like 6K. Importance : 10/10
- Bug/hitbox fixes – 4B on hit (at slightly closer than tip range) causes a stupid staggering bounce where the opponent bounces just out of range of your prepBB guaranteed follow-through. This only occurs at that particular range, as – while 4B attacks cause the opponent to bounce backwards a bit (except tip range) – they bounce far enough so prepBB fails to hit which really makes guard impact risky and frustrating as well as punishing certain moves can result in a whiff. Importance : 9/10
- Bug/hitbox fixes – A+BA against grounded opponents seem to depend very much on how they are aligned. I agree that scoring all 3 hits against a grounded opponent is pretty absurd damage for Raphael, but at the same time whiffing all 3 attacks is a common occurrence and is quite bothersome. The opponent needs to be splayed on the ground across Raph, as opposed to having their head or feet towards Raph. Consistency please ? The 3rd hit of A+BA should have more accurate re-alignment, especially if the 2nd hit actually connects. Importance : 3/10
- Bug/hitbox fixes – 3A on CH pushes the opponent sometimes out of range of 3B, BB and AA which means now that Raph may have to risk throwing out a 66A (which is noticeably slower than does only 22 damage) just to try to stop their quick-step. The pushback should be reduced so that the opponent is at tip range of BB/AA (plus the pushback fix for AA) in order to force the mixup it was originally intended. Importance : 4/10
- Bug/hitbox fixes - 66A+B (upclose) launching opponent backwards so far that BT B+K does not hit. That is probably just poor testing than intentional. Importance : 6/10
- Bug Hitbox fix: 2nd hit of AA, 33KB, 33K (BE) may not necessarily connect because at certain ranges the 1st hit pushes them out too far. This is just laziness or poor design imo. There is even a certain range where the 2nd hit of 6BB and prepBB will whiff due to the pushback from the 1st hit. This doesn't occur nearly as much so its not as critical as the other moves listed above. Importance : 9/10
- Character moveset design: 22A vs 33A vs 22K vs 4A. All these are sixteen damage. That is 1 more damage than 15 which seems like such a insignificant number (less than AAs for all characters). Maybe this damage would have been barely acceptable in SC4, but this is SC5 now. There is very little differentiation between the moves too, which is something that should be tweaked so each is used in different circumstances. A) 33A being the short-mid ranged mid horizontal with barely positive on hit/CH and unsafe on block. B) 22A is high, barely faster, and is negative on hit, but a nice CH spin for juicy frames. C)22K being the short ranged, high CH fisher that is safe on block. D) 4A being the fastest, tracking high with built in evasion, but compensated for being negative on NH and CH. Horizontals like these are laughable if they are on any other character. I accept 22A being negative on NH given its range, but being 16 damage on CH with no guaranteed followup is pretty weak. Would it kill them to give him 20 damage for that ? Given 33A's short range and tiny advantage on hit, does it justify it being -16 on block for only 16 damage ? I understand that his horizontals are not supposed to be powerful by any stretch, but that doesn't mean it has to be laughable. Importance : 8/10
- Gameplay balance – 3B being 18 damage. Eighteen pitiful damage for something that is -14 on block. Why must you force us to enter preparation or resort to using this poke only for guaranteed punish situations ? 24 damage is a suggestion, but the key is that it must be over 20 damage to avoid the orange life bar reduction that affects too many of Raph's moves. It feels that 3B got unfairly adjusted so that it wont conflict with BB (which wasn't a good move to begin with). Importance : 8/10
- Gameplay balance – prepK being i20 while being the only mid option. Plus, the move is very easy to step at close range (Raph's right is steppable at any distance while stepping to raph's left requires a deeper step). Also, it's surprisingly short ranged. I accept it being a short ranged, mid horizontals that needs to be unsafe (-i16), but buff prepK BE to have 100% tracking (same logic as maxi's LI A BE). Prep K doesn't need 100% tracking as far as I'm concerned. I don't know why prep K is only 18 damage and even on hit for being the "heavy and unsafe" move from prep though. Raph does have combo potential on CH but imo the combo dmg should be 50+ and not 30ish damage on CH. PrepK should return to being 30 damage on NH and at least give some advantage on hit. Importance : 9/10
- Gameplay balance - 1A has terrible numbers associated with it. Its not particularly fast at i20, is -16 on block. On hit, it's -4. To top it off, its only TEN damage. There are very few moves with lower damage than this one. I would like to see a damage buff to this just to make it worth using as a low poke(16 to 18 damage). Additionally, increased pushout only on hit (and only at close range) would be acceptable if it stays at -4 on hit. If the mandate is that it must remain low damage, then 1A will have to end up being like xianghua's invisible low pokes that sweep and that would make Raph terribly annoying. Importance : 10/10
- Gameplay balance – 3(B)~prepAB being very range-dependent for punishing -16 as a lot of the times prepA is simply too short ranged to connect. Seems too ambiguous and will lead to a lot of frustration (but not as bad as 22B crumple mis-alignments). Probably would classify this as a "buff 6A and prepA range" to make them useable after a 6B(B) transition as opposed to only a 3(B) transition. Importance : 3/10
- Gameplay balance – SE stance seems to last unnecessarily long (19 frames). Too tell-tale considering Raph has to choose a prep entry move, enter prep, then input SE which makes reacting to this move all too easy. Decreasing the duration would allow raph to apply more pressure and fish for whiffs and baits as the opponents will be more pressured and less time to play passive and react. Importance : 5/10
- Gameplay balance – SE A on block changed to something that can sustain offense, but not too strong. Prep into SE can be dealt with step-guarding because SE stance takes so long before you are allowed an input. Maybe even on block is too strong, so maybe -2 to -4 is a good sweet spot. Importance : 7/10
- Gameplay balance – 2_8B+K to track to their respective sides regardless of how deep the opponent steps. I don't care if it's negative on hit or under 25 damage, it'll be worth it to have a reliable 100% tracking to one side (which means only 50% IF you guess they are stepping in the first place). Eitherway, using this move strictly for B+K evade setups is really lacking. Importance : 7/10
- Gameplay balance – B+K to have early active auto-evade window (frames 3 to 12 ?) as opposed to later (like 10-27). For a character with little offensive potential from combos or 50/50 mixups, Raph could gain some offense from his defense. Currently, there is a whole mess of problems. B+K is anticipatory as opposed to reactionary due to the slowness of the active frames as it is better off manually stepping the move. It doesn't actually aGI so nothing is guaranteed, as well as you run the chance of teleporting into the 2nd hit of the string and eating a CH for your "read". The attack only triggers when the auto-evade triggers, but certain moves recover faster than the attack so they simply just have to crouch the last hit and punish raph for his "counter move". Due to the opponent's animation, they may not always be BT on hit. In a nutshell, the primary change should be that the auto-evade frames should be earlier. For reliability's sake the attack should always turn the opponent BT on hit, and should end with a mid attack as opposed to high attack. Importance : 10/10
- Aesthetic – 4A+B aGI: Why does it still do the multi-stab into 3B animation when it is already existent as 6BB BE or prepBB BE? Should totally bring back SC4's 44B attack-throw animation (heck i'll accept it returning for only 48 damage and less the wallsplat potential of the SC5 current version). Importance : ?/10
Fix hitbox/whiff/realignment issues
Better damage on pokes (10% to 20% damage increase max)
More useful auto-evades and aGIs.
"SC4 influenced wishlist"
- 2_8B+K to track to their respective sides regardless of how deep the opponent steps. I don't care if it's negative on hit or under 25 damage, it'll be worth it to have a reliable 100% tracking to one side (which means only 50% IF you guess they are stepping). What I’m willing to give up: Lose the 60 NH combo damage. Even if it knocks down for a simple 2K/2B I’m more than happy.
- B+K to have a super early active auto-evade window (frames 2 to 10 ?) as opposed to later (like 10-20). What I’m willing to give up: Considering that VE A is the only forced option, and that it does pretty low damage there is not much to give up. Evading moves does not guarantee the damage unlike an aGI would, and even risks eating a CH from the opponent’s 2nd hit in their string. However, I’m willing to trade VE A’s crazy + frames on block and even crazier + frames on hit and forced backturn IF VE has more than 1 option. I’m even willing to consider for it to cost METER if the evade window if Raph gets different and more devastating attack options from VE (including with aGI properties).
- 33B to track against people who make shallow steps only. How this can be accomplished is that the move should begin to re-align/track later in its animation (at the end of Raph’s side step instead of the beginning of the step) and to compensate Raph’s maximum angle of tracking should remain small. This “maximum angle of tracking” can be best envisioned thinking of Ivy’s 214B where, once you reach a certain angle to her alignment she’ll whiff completely and miserably. That way, opponents who make shallow steps and hold guard will be matched by Raph’s own 33B, and they’ll remain within Raph’s alignment for him to poke them in the toes. What I’m willing to give up: Lose some NH damage (if the move drops to 20 damage that is fine), and I’m even considering losing the toe-hop stun if the tracking improves to be better than what I suggested.
- His anti-step horizontals should give a side-step CH specific stun. This won’t be triggered if you counterhit them from attacking or backdashing. This is a buff for moves like his SC2 4A (maybe a spin stun on side-step CH for a small mixup from raph), and nerf to his SC4 4A (having crumple stun only available for side-step CH means the move should be safer on block or even + frames on NH). What I’m willing to give up: Tradeoffs already mentioned above. In fact, I do not believe it appropriate for Raph to have insane NH properties and damage on his quick step kill moves.
- Prep 8 = hop evade “stance” (great idea from fendante). I however see other follow ups as more reasonable. SC4 prep K:K would actually look natural from his twirl hop evade. His SC4 44B attack throw animation could be his B attack from hop evade. And I don’t really have any suggestions for his hop evade A, so it may be a step-kill option of his SC2 hop evade AB command. What I’m willing to give up: The problem (and this can be discussed in an entire “Prep analysis thread”) is that hop evade will kill 2K, 2A, but Prep currently is still vulnerable to TCing mids, like sieg’s 3B.
- Retreat step (SC2 214 motion). I can live without the advance step 236, as Raph rushing arm’s length to an opponent for a grab mixup seems un-fencer like. The retreat step is totally overly dramatic, exaggerated and flamboyant, which means its perfect for Raph. The pain from losing 44B from neutral stance will be greatly alleviated by the return of his SC2 214. What I’m willing to give up: Err make sure he doesn’t end up overpowered with both this and a seung-mina like backdash.
- SC2 214B to return. Well, in honestly that’s just a template move. The properties I would like to see is Raph having a fencer-esque looking move that aGIs weak attacks (under 20 damage, no knockdown, like nightmare A+B) and ending with a poke. I’m not suggesting anything as powerful and brain dead as asura, but if his SC2 214B returned with a anti-weak move aGI, I can see it slotting into Raph’s fencer poking game nicely. I guess 4A+B “could” be this suggested move, but I have a soft spot for his 214B (cuz that sucker rings out!) What I’m willing to give up: Err.. I’d give up his 6B+K for this!
- Prep 214 retreat shouldn't have a "2" command as it seems like it will conflict with prep 2 (SE sway). Maybe just simplify to prep 4 instead of prep 214
I think it’s imperative that Raphael be given solid options when at frame disadvantage (good evades, tech crouches, VE, aGI) without changing the entire momentum of the round with 1 lucky guess.
Also, I believe he “should” be able to easily and fluidly switch between a spacing + poking game with stance-enhanced rushdown strings.
I don’t believe that he should be a 50/50 mid low mixup/knock down type character or the type to fish for a giant safe launcher combo where he proceeds to chase you down for wake-up pressure. His main source of damage should come primarily from pokes and then reading and reacting to the opponent's frustration with the proper evade/aGI/whiff bait/CH.
I do not see him being a great guard crusher (in SC4 his soul gauge to me was more mystical than physical damage), which should be compensated for him having many useable “invisible” low pokes to draw a reaction from the opponent safely.