Siegfried General Discussion / Q&A

[MKHSpartan]

It's i18, still faster than 3A (and doesn't miss if they step to Siegfried's right) but I don't see why bother with it if you could just 6A at i15 for more damage and a hard knockdown on CH that opens up a lot of space.

For ring out potential to the other side, knocks down on both normal and counter hit (though if you catch them stepping it will always be a counter hit lol, making that point a bit void) and also if blocked, you are still at + frames to continue your offense, unlike 6A where you have to go back to defense. Also does more damage, which is always nice.

It all depends on what the situation calls for.

the point of 4A is to throw it out during juggle combos near a ring edge to push the opponent out of the ring. the point of 4{A} is to push the opponent out of the ring during juggle combos while looking stylish.

True, I was trying to think of a use for it from neutral lolz.

6A is pretty much your best non-agA stepkill, and its a good move besides - it should be used frequently. another decent move for killing step is 2A, as its an unseeable low that tracks step with decent range, and only rarely whiffs. True, its negative on hit, but if your opponent wants to keep eating 2A's, you keep hitting them with 2As.

^

the only thing i dont like about 3K, is that even at close range it is inconsistent at step killing - even on its strong side. sometimes it will catch step, sometimes it wont. Dont get me wrong - 3K is an awesome poke, its just not my go to choice for killing step at close range, especially when 6A is the same speed.

Yes I agree with this, I have it stepped through a bit even at point blank range, it's rather annoying. Still, I use it more for being a poke with a decent chance of step killing, rather than being primary step kill material lolz.

I also do use 3A a bit for step kill as a frame trap at mid range after iagA/SCH B on block, however it is a bit more match-up dependent as to how good the opposing character/player is at punishing it, as some characters can't punish it and some like A-Pat etc can punish you reasonably hard for it if they want to CE etc. I only ever use it at mid range though, I use stuff like 6A, 3K and 1K at close range.

 

[Slayer_X64]

For ring out potential to the other side, knocks down on both normal and counter hit (though if you catch them stepping it will always be a counter hit lol, making that point a bit void) and also if blocked, you are still at + frames to continue your offense, unlike 6A where you have to go back to defense. Also does more damage, which is always nice.

It all depends on what the situation calls for.


True, I was trying to think of a use for it from neutral lolz.

^

Yes I agree with this, I have it stepped through a bit even at point blank range, it's rather annoying. Still, I use it more for being a poke with a decent chance of step killing, rather than being primary step kill material lolz.

I also do use 3A a bit for step kill as a frame trap at mid range after iagA/SCH B on block, however it is a bit more match-up dependent as to how good the opposing character/player is at punishing it, as some characters can't punish it and some like A-Pat etc can punish you reasonably hard for it if they want to CE etc. I only ever use it at mid range though, I use stuff like 6A, 3K and 1K at close range.

well certainly. as i said, 3K is definitely a great poke, and probably one of siegfrieds best pokes.

as for 6A, i will put in that the move is great for essentially forcing out a step kill on your opponent. agA creates fear, but when your opponent gets in your face like that, 6A is certainly one of the go to "stop moving around" moves, and its one of your best options for pushing them back out because it is so fast. its range isnt bad for an i15 punisher either - i certainly wouldnt overlook the move in that context.

anyways 3A is a decent step kill, and it is difficult to step even to the weak side, but even though it is 1 frame faster at close range, it just doesnt have the raw speed required to beat out harassment. 2A may be slow as well, but it at least has the TC backing it up, and while 1K can track step, 2A is pretty much guaranteed to track step. but in some of cases too, 3A isnt horrible on block simply because the punishment doesnt outweigh the rewards for hitting with it, making it a pretty solid choice in certain matchups. in any case where punishment is an issue, or if they are stepping 3A to the weak side, never forget 3a:A. it is certainly slower, but the pushback makes it practically impossible to punish, and it still provides combo opportunities (although the execution barrier for said opportunities is a bit higher, and partially range dependant). infact if given the opportunity, id say throw out plenty of 3a:A just for the sake of smacking into your opponents guard, setting up mindgames with the pushback, all while simultaneously keeping their step in check and protecting your weakside.

but in terms of step killing my main tools are always agA, 6A or 2A, with sometimes a WR AA CH fish. 3A is only really great if you know it will hit, or if you are trying to cut down on step-TC aggression.

anybody got any opinions on 2B? funny move with a strange TC, decent range, and forced crouch on hit. I find i've been throwing that out sometimes as a conservative mid range poking option, and the TC doesnt do it any harm viability wise either.

 

[Der Lindwurm]

For ring out potential to the other side, knocks down on both normal and counter hit (though if you catch them stepping it will always be a counter hit lol, making that point a bit void) and also if blocked, you are still at + frames to continue your offense, unlike 6A where you have to go back to defense. Also does more damage, which is always nice.

I was talking about 4A, not agA. I'd throw agA out a lot more if I could count on it to go without having to ready up to input it accurately, which probably adds 5-10 frames to the move.

 

[MKHSpartan]

I was talking about 4A, not agA. I'd throw agA out a lot more if I could count on it to go without having to ready up to input it accurately, which probably adds 5-10 frames to the move.

Right... I was confused as to why iagA was suddenly i18 lolol, yea 4A from neutral is just bad.

Still better than 44(A) though lol

 

[Der Lindwurm]

Still better than 44(A) though lol

Maybe they meant for it to transition into SSH but got the code mixed up.

 

[Sandman]

Relatedish - anyone ever use ag[A]? I wonder if it would work against opponents who like to keep blocking after agA on guard.

Also, something else I've been fucking around with - 1K ~ RCC B+K catches motherfuckers who like to 2A you after 1K on hit, which seems to be a lot of people.

 

[MKHSpartan]

Relatedish - anyone ever use ag[A]? I wonder if it would work against opponents who like to keep blocking after agA on guard.

Depends on how well they know Siegfried I guess, but considering it's -6 on block for that transition (I think), and the fastest option out of SRSH is about i18ish, that would mean they can react and interrupt you with a fast-medium speed block, as they can recognise the stance transition and they have about 24ish frames to interrupt you.

Maybe someone else has some kind of niche use for it, but I know of no use for it myself, if they like to hold block after iagA too much, I just throw them or iagA again and again till they stop blocking.

Also, something else I've been fucking around with - 1K ~ RCC B+K catches motherfuckers who like to 2A you after 1K on hit, which seems to be a lot of people.

Yes, it does work, I think the timing can be hard strict online however (obviously not a problem if you are playing offline though). 66A also works for easier execution, but less reward. I also often do 9K into throw/3B mix-up if I am sure they going to 2A but don't want to do SBH incase they like 2K or something, it catches alot of people off guard if you do it every now and again.

Maybe they meant for it to transition into SSH but got the code mixed up.

^^

 

[Slayer_X64]

eh naw, ag{A} just leaves you in such bad positioning, and with the pushback from agA on block combined with the stance transition, im not even sure you would be anywhere near in range to do anything except SRSH A. save it for wall combos.

and eh...the thing i dont like about RCCing into B+K is that the execution barrier is simply too high to be practical, and by that i mean how consistently under pressure do you think someone can practically apply that? 1K:6 :5 :B+K is essentially the notation for what kind of input that would require. thats why i stick to using 66A when im in crouch, and B+K when im not - it's fool proof. 1K:66A is alot easier to link, and can even be mashed and buffered. but anyways if they are 2Aing you repeatedly after 1K, you could try to backstep their 2A and simply whiff punish them (which is what im assuming you were doing before the B+K experiment), or you could even try Jump attacks (44B? 9K or even 9B.) as they are alot safer options than an aGI, dont really hurt you as much if you guess wrong, and a couple of them here and there (especially 44B's) will discourage 2A mashing anyways from accumulated damage.

I honestly wouldnt try for an aGI in that situation unless they were a) making a really bad habit of consistently 2Aing there, or b) they had a huge life lead, and my chances of winning the match essentially depended on an immediate, large amount of damage to regain or even out life lead.

 

[Der Lindwurm]

anybody got any opinions on 2B? funny move with a strange TC, decent range, and forced crouch on hit. I find i've been throwing that out sometimes as a conservative mid range poking option, and the TC doesnt do it any harm viability wise either.

I did a lot of 2(B) to go into SBH back in the days that I spammed SBH A until they started blocking low so then I could SBH B them.

More recently, I've found that opponents often want to move a little bit after getting hit by 2(B), making it more likely that you'll be able to launch them with SBH B if it takes them too long to process the implications of your having gone into SBH in that scenario.

 

[MKHSpartan]

Only time I do 2B is if I somehow screw up iwrB

 

[Slayer_X64]

I've just been experimenting with raw 2B without stance transition. the TC seems to work oddly often, and other than being a little slow, its not terrible frame wise

 

[Bastet]

Wow great points guys! All I want to do now is practice them and play XD
Thanks, some of those points will help me get a bit better <3 <3
Specially about the 1K, 2A thing. It used to scare me a lot, I would only guard or mess up backstep

 

[Sandman]

Execution isn't that bad on it, really. 1K leaves you at -2, RCC B+K will therefore GI at...i10 I think? So you get 3 or 4 frames to do it. Empirically, it doesn't feel any harder than Viola's bombos.

 

[Slayer_X64]

well think of it this way sandman:

you 1K, you are at -2.

immediately after 1K, on frame 1, you input 6 to get out of crouch. thats 1 extra frame. this where a normal iRCC stops.

next though because you are RCCing into neutral, you have to release 6 to hit 5. that is 1 more extra frame.

finally you hit basehold on the final frame of input. but even so thats 3 extra frames that you are tacking onto the input, not just 1 frame, as you would be with conventional iRCC.

2+3 = 5 for your input frames, + 7 for baseholds aGI activation = 12. your basehold will not come out until i12.

the reason for this, is because you cannot buffer 5 as an input (mainly because you cannot input 5 - because it is neutral input). and because you cannot buffer 5, you cannot buffer B+K out of 5. so essentially, the entire thing has to be done with JF timing, in order to get the speed required to aGI a 2A.

Does that make more sense now?

 

[Sandman]

No...why is releasing 6 an extra frame?

You're at -2
You hit 6 and release it as fast as you can - 3
Hit B+K - comes out on 4, GI starts at 7, so that puts you at i10 or 11, probably 11. 3 frames is plenty. 2 is not even that bad, considering it's 91 damage coming from negative frames, and some people will auto-2A after 1K on hit.

The drawbacks I see of this, thinking about it, is that if people get wise they can start launching you...but they have to do so on anticipation, and WR B will trade with most launchers. With 66A if people get wise, they do anything other than attack immediately and both you and your mother get the D.

Unrelated: good to see you motherfuckers back here. Still sandmanahoy on PSN, come get fucked.

Edit: And again, my execution on this seems to be slightly better than the bombos. If I fuck it up, I get WR B instead, which I do half the time after 1K anyway, so whatevs lol

 

[Slayer_X64]

No...why is releasing 6 an extra frame?

You're at -2
You hit 6 and release it as fast as you can - 3
Hit B+K - comes out on 4, GI starts at 7, so that puts you at i10 or 11, probably 11. 3 frames is plenty. 2 is not even that bad, considering it's 91 damage coming from negative frames, and some people will auto-2A after 1K on hit.

The drawbacks I see of this, thinking about it, is that if people get wise they can start launching you...but they have to do so on anticipation, and WR B will trade with most launchers. With 66A if people get wise, they do anything other than attack immediately and both you and your mother get the D.

Unrelated: good to see you motherfuckers back here. Still sandmanahoy on PSN, come get fucked.

Edit: And again, my execution on this seems to be slightly better than the bombos. If I fuck it up, I get WR B instead, which I do half the time after 1K anyway, so whatevs lol

because releasing 6 takes at least 1 frame input wise. if you hit B+K and dont release 6, you'll get something like 6 or 66B. you cant hit 6 and 5 at the same time. hitting 6 and releasing it as fast as you can is still 2 seperate frames no matter how you look at it. and then because you cant buffer from 5, thats your final extra frame, i12.

and even if it was 2 frames, that is still pretty bad, especially for this kind of input. this isnt a conventional just frame you're doing, this is completely unbufferable.

as for the drawbacks, with how fast the aGI activates on 66A (i6), they have to anticipate that too. if they get wise on either B+K or 66A thats an instant CH for craptons of damage either way, so it really doesnt matter. on top of that, it is not uncommon for characters to lack requiring their launcher in order to score big damage. it may not be as big as your basehold, but whats gonna hurt more, if they hit you 3+ times for 60 damage, or if you hit them 1 time for 110?

plus you forget that if they ANTICIPATE a 66A OR a B+K, they can just wait, look for the move transition, and THEN hit you out of it. no player in their right mind will just mindlessly throw out launcher in this situation. 66A may be reactable, but stance transitions are reactable too.

but im not gonna argue with you, you play the game your way, do what you wanna do. im just here to tell you why its a bad idea, especially when you have alot of safer, low risk options that can deal with the situation anyways.

im not saying its not possible, and im not saying you cant do it in practice, im saying good luck doing it in a real situation under pressure.

consistency >>>>>> potential, no matter how you look at it. you dont take unnecessary risks like this unless you absolutely have to.

 

[HolyCarp]

Slayer, you're saying that RCC B+K activates at i10 from neutral (i12 after a 1K, therefore i10 from neutral)? Just to make sure I understand the semantics...

Well I'm pretty sure RCC B+K comes out faster than i10. I use 1K RCC B+K a fair bit, I'd argue it's practical enough to use in a real match. I was therefore curious as to whether I have godlike execution or if it isn't actually that hard, so I just tested it out in training.

I set the Siegfried training dummy to do 2A RCC B+K (using the record/playback feature). I found that Alpha couldn't interrupt it with his i13 2A. What really surprised me was that he still would get aGI'd if he tried to interrupt with 2142A, which is i12.

Sieg 2A = -4 on hit
Alpha 2142A = i12

Surely that would mean that the aGI on RCC B+K activates at i8. (edit: i10 if we're talking post-1K)

Am I doing something wrong here? i8 seems kinda ridiculous, but I sure as hell can't 2A or 2142A Sieg out of his 2A RCC B+K, which would make me think it's i8.

 

[Slayer_X64]

Slayer, you're saying that RCC B+K activates at i10 from neutral (i12 after a 1K, therefore i10 from neutral)? Just to make sure I understand the semantics...

Well I'm pretty sure RCC B+K comes out faster than i10. I use 1K RCC B+K a fair bit, I'd argue it's practical enough to use in a real match. I was therefore curious as to whether I have godlike execution or if it isn't actually that hard, so I just tested it out in training.

I set the Siegfried training dummy to do 2A RCC B+K (using the record/playback feature). I found that Alpha couldn't interrupt it with his i13 2A. What really surprised me was that he still would get aGI'd if he tried to interrupt with 2142A, which is i12.

Sieg 2A = -4 on hit
Alpha 2142A = i12

Surely that would mean that the aGI on RCC B+K activates at i8.

Am I doing something wrong here? i8 seems kinda ridiculous, but I sure as hell can't 2A or 2142A Sieg out of his 2A RCC B+K, which would make me think it's i8.

hmm no you are infact correct, i just tested it myself. here are my test results:

alpha patroklos vs siegfried:

siegfried 1K ~ iRCC B+K, apat 2A: aGI successful.

siegfried 1K ~ iRCC B+K, apat 2142A: aGI successful.

siegfried 2A ~ iRCC B+K, apat 2A: aGI successful.

siegfried 2A ~ iRCC B+K, apat 2142A: aGI successful.

Anyways according to this, it would mean that the aGI is activating at i8 at neutral, and i10 in the 1K situation. exactly i12 in the 2A situation.

still while it wasnt hard to do in practice, i certainly wouldnt make attempts to do this in a real match with nerves ticking unless victory/defeat depended on it. it would be very easy to screw this up under pressure, and besides that it is still incredibly risky if the opponent decides to wait you out. 2 frames for error still isnt alot of breathing room, and neither is 3 frames vs generic 2A, especially in a real match.

with that, i maintain that unless the situation calls for it, you should still choose other options.

this actually makes me wonder if B+K's aGI is infact faster than the listed i7...because it would still take bare minimum 2 frames to RCC out of crouch into neutral instead of just 1.

 

[HolyCarp]

this actually makes me wonder if B+K's aGI is infact faster than the listed i7...because it would still take bare minimum 2 frames to RCC out of crouch into neutral instead of just 1.

Well 3K (on block) into B+K can be interrupted by 2142A but not by 2A.

3K = -6
2142A = i12

So that'd mean it still aGIs at i7.


I guess you don't need an extra frame for the 5 input because 5B+K can all be registered as the same input within one frame.

 

[Slayer_X64]

Well 3K (on block) into B+K can be interrupted by 2142A but not by 2A.

3K = -6
2142A = i12

So that'd mean it still aGIs at i7.


I guess you don't need an extra frame for the 5 input because 5B+K can all be registered as the same input within one frame.

yes i've found that too. although you'd think releasing 6 would count as a second frame, as strange as it may be, if thats the way it is, thats the way it is.