Yoshi SCIV -> SCV Changes

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Let's talk A+K.

A+K can actually hit the opponent at point blank range. On the other hand, it seems to come out slightly slower than its previous version. If you need meter, A+K might be the way to go. It's no SC2 A+K, though.

It executes in 8 frames.

Like MarkMan, I'm having problems opening people up... and I seem to get stuffed regularly when I use iMCF. I know my opponents aren't at advantage, so I have no idea why I'm getting stuffed.

It seems like you have to take far more risks with Yoshi, and the reward is a little less than it used to be. Right now, things are working out, but I'm afraid of what will happen when people know how to properly punish things.

I was trying to work MED into my game more, but unless the opponent is grounded MED B and MED K are easily stepped. MED A is unsafe on block and doesn't give Yoshi much on hit, so the risk again outweighs the reward.

I will keep at it with Yoshi to see if I can find any juice, but I'm definitely getting frustrated with him. He's just... not fun.
 
I feel ya! That's where losing 6A hurts the most, not being able to bust out MCF pressure from further away!! Parting Thrust's range has tanked too!! He's a much more close range character now. I'm learning to cope now though.
 
One definite improvements is that you no longer have to RCC MCF to get another iMCF out. So locking your opponents down up close is a bit easier.
 
Definition and standard notation guide coming shortly. To keep things inline with notation used in SCIV, let's stick with..


MED = Meditation / Indian Stance
DGF = (Manji) Dragonfly
SDGF = Super Dragonfly
IFP = Iron Fist Possession (4A+K)
RCC = Recover crouch cancel. Someone else can explain this one. It's bedtime.
 
Quick question, because I didn't see it in the movelist input guide: RCC? Definition? []

You tap forward after an attack that leaves you crouching to recover faster and execute a normal standing attack.

Wait a sec.... Is MCF really i10 now????

Yes, and I need to do some testing, but I think it tech crouches much later in the animation as well. I get stuffed all the time now. It's not fun...
 
Wow that's a needless change. Again I ask... Why make it so difficult if it's barely better than a basic input? Parting Thrust too.
 
Wow that's a needless change. Again I ask... Why make it so difficult if it's barely better than a basic input? Parting Thrust too.
iMCF is easier now. So it makes sense it’s worse.

Parting thrust, though, has gotten worse and hard — a double nerf.
 
From my testing iMCF seems to tech crouch in 6 frames. I don't recall the numbers from SC4, but this seems slow to me in comparison.

Just glancing at Yoshi's SC4 frame data, it's clear that the devs did not want him frame trapping as much. For example, his AA in SC4 was -5 on block, which allowed you to frame trap with iMCF (being 9 frames at the time). It beat out most mids and tech crouched fast enough to go under highs. It wasn't his best iMCF frame trap, but it was just another tool in his arsenal.

In SC5, his AA is -8 on block. Combine that with an i10 iMCF that doesn't tech crouch until the 6th frame and it's no longer a frame trap. Going through the rest of Yoshi's frame data, he lost a significant amount of frame traps that were viable in SC4.

I've been trying to work in his Iron Fist attacks (Tekken moves), but I can't get the A+K GI to work with me. It only GIs vertical attacks, but even then, it's not ever vertical attack. I would have to go through every character's movelist and determine which verticals it GIs... and that's just not worth it to get RANDOM Tekken moves.

I've also been trying to use MED more since that's one of the few buffs Yoshi's got. MED K and MED B are easily evaded by better players. MED A is -16 on block (although +2 on hit, which is uncommon for a low). I'm going to mess around with the teleport and see if I can find a good use for that, but Yoshi just seems so limited right now.

I've also found that 22K has an odd hit box. I've had it completely whiff at near point blank range. Same with 1K and MED K (which are both safe on block now).

I'm really trying to make Yoshi work in SC5... but it's almost like PS just didn't want him to be good.
 
I'm really trying to make Yoshi work in SC5... but it's almost like PS just didn't want him to be good.

I don't think he was nerfed THAT bad. He just plays really different. They discouraged a lot of SCIV shenanigans. For the first two days I was considering switching mains I was that lost. Then I started to see how some of his other options worked much better and went from there. Yoshi has pretty much always been high risk high reward and this incarnation is the highest risk highest reward yet. He's mid tier so far at best, but in the right hands I still think he could win some majors.
 
...but I can't get the A+K GI to work with me. It only GIs vertical attacks...
Wait what? I could have sworn I was testing the Tekken tiers by charging A+K against a CPU training Raph set to do a horizontal. It was an A command, I’m almost certain. I think you we need to check this again.
 
I don't think he was nerfed THAT bad. He just plays really different. They discouraged a lot of SCIV shenanigans. For the first two days I was considering switching mains I was that lost. Then I started to see how some of his other options worked much better and went from there. Yoshi has pretty much always been high risk high reward and this incarnation is the highest risk highest reward yet. He's mid tier so far at best, but in the right hands I still think he could win some majors.

How was he high risk in SC4?

Also, what other options are you referring to? So far, it seems as though the only buff was to MED, which I already discussed in my last post. Beyond that, some frames are better on a few attacks, but worse on others.

Wait what? I could have sworn I was testing the Tekken tiers by charging A+K against a CPU training Raph set to do a horizontal. It was an A command for certain. I think you need to check this again.

I meant horizontal. Sorry... lol
 
I've actually seen his A+K GI verticals in training (Patroklos' 66B, among others). It can't GI the 6B,B,B string though. []
 
How was he high risk in SC4?

Also, what other options are you referring to? So far, it seems as though the only buff was to MED, which I already discussed in my last post. Beyond that, some frames are better on a few attacks, but worse on others.

I meant horizontal. Sorry... lol

iMFC game has always essentially been fishing for counter hits. That's risk. 3B used to be one of the most risky launchers in the game. 3AB was no better, in fact I much prefer the new 3AB which gives you a hit confirmable launcher. Using a timer for Tekken moves was major risk, if you chose that route...etc Otherwise most of his weapons are still all there outside of a few stances and 6K2K which wasn't that good to begin with.

6K is buffed. 4KB is buffed. 3B is far less punishable. SDF B tracks if you hold 4 or 6 as they step to realign and is way quicker. This follows by a guaranteed 9B+K(K) DGF oki. And if you're BT in DGF try A. DGF A has almost as long of reach as it does from front, BT. A+K is more reliable than it once was. His wall game is as good if not better than before (normalizing meter changes between the two games). The things he lost he didn't really lose so much as they're utilized differently. iMCF is far stricter to get juggles off of it, but it works just fine still. And I don't know if you can complain about it being 1 frame slower when it's a lot easier to execute. I haven't tested much of the tech crouching with it but either way you'll be fishing for counter hits with it the same way as always. The one thing he did get nerfed hard was earslicer which is almost unnecessary now with its execution problems. His BEs aren't that good for sure, but his super is actually one of the better ones. Also, MED didn't get that big of a buff when you take into account you can backstep literally anything from it.

He's at least B tier right now, but do see him dropping when people learn to more accurately guess his mixups.

I've actually seen his A+K GI verticals in training (Patroklos' 66B, among others). It can't GI the 6B,B,B string though. []

I believe that A+K will stuff any move if it is in makeout distance and thrown out at the right time. You don't GI the attack so much as just stuff it. I obviously haven't tested extensively but I get loads of interrupts with it and think it's one of Yoshi's best weapons to get his amazing oki game started.
 
Fair enough. Of course, I haven't played a lot of offline, and it's not exactly easy to use online, even with a good connection. []
 
Using a timer for Tekken moves was major risk, if you chose that route......
I believe that A+K will stuff any move if it is in makeout distance and thrown out at the right time. You don't GI the attack so much as just stuff it. I obviously haven't tested extensively but I get loads of interrupts with it and think it's one of Yoshi's best weapons to get his amazing oki game started.
Using timer for Tekken moves was completely safe once you learned it. You had many many opportunities to glance up at the clock, for instance, while doing a safe move, while eating a throw, after a move that caused your opponent to get pushed back, etc... Once you learned the meta-game of checking the clock at the right times, it became a powerful tool.

100% on the A+K just plain hitting people if they’re up in your face. Otherwise it’s an anti-horizontal move. Which is much better than it used to be.
 
I'm not getting how MCF is any easier now. Honestly, it seems the same to me. Maybe cause I could always do it but honestly I think people are just better now due to practice.

SDGF B always realigned if you pressed 6 and DGF A always hit opponents behind you also before on CH it lets you land a massively damaging combo off of DGF B so that is actually another nerf to that move.

3B's buff is nice but really I never threw it out unless in was in a combo before. I you use DGF mixups on wake which were more damage anyway. So it's not a necessary buff and definitely doesn't offset his other nerfs. His range nerfs are the biggest concern to me.

He's definitely been demoted but he's still fun and usable. It may be a good idea to have a second character though to haul out in times of need this time around!
 
Using timer for Tekken moves was completely safe once you learned it. You had many many opportunities to glance up at the clock, for instance, while doing a safe move, while eating a throw, after a move that caused your opponent to get pushed back, etc... Once you learned the meta-game of checking the clock at the right times, it became a powerful tool.

100% on the A+K just plain hitting people if they’re up in your face. Otherwise it’s an anti-horizontal move. Which is much better than it used to be.

For sure, but sometimes you miss your timer and get drunk taunt or some other ridiculously awful move that can end a round by itself. I've seen pretty high caliber players miss their Tekken moves in big matches. Lolo even.

I'm not getting how MCF is any easier now. Honestly, it seems the same to me. Maybe cause I could always do it but honestly I think people are just better now due to practice.

SDGF B always realigned if you pressed 6 and DGF A always hit opponents behind you also before on CH it lets you land a massively damaging combo off of DGF B so that is actually another nerf to that move.

3B's buff is nice but really I never threw it out unless in was in a combo before. I you use DGF mixups on wake which were more damage anyway. So it's not a necessary buff and definitely doesn't offset his other nerfs. His range nerfs are the biggest concern to me.

He's definitely been demoted but he's still fun and usable. It may be a good idea to have a second character though to haul out in times of need this time around!

I just mentioned the realignment for SDF B because it's quicker now and that can be used to avoid people stepping it because it doesn't track worth a shit anymore. Also, test out how far the reach is on BT DGF A. Far better than IV. It's pretty incredible.
 
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