Algol/Hilde! (Serious thread)

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Something-Unique

Something-Unique

[10] Knight
This thread is based on how serious of a problem Hilde and Algol are to this game.

This is what I believe as well as the general consensus.

Hilde = Broken.

Algol = Debateable (Personally I don't believe he is broken at all)

However the main issue here is that these two characters are ripping the community to shreds.

This past weekend I attended the Kogamarasu Monthly. In every previous outing the tournaments have always been 30-40 people or possibly more.

However in this past particular tournament Algol and guest characters were unbanned just to give him a chance. I must point out again that the definitive decision for Algol being broke and not being broke is even or all over the place (again I personally don't believe so).

There was some talk of people not attending and such if he was unbanned etc. and I personally thought it was bullshit. However it came true with only 16 people attending a normally 30-40 people monthly tournament. In fact SFIV even had its own tournament and either the same amount or more people participated in an event that is more catered towards SCIV.

So my argument is some people will be like so what forget the whiners blah blah blah. Other people will be like the people who play Algol/Hilde will be the ones to defend the character with major bias and not be open minded enough to understand the other sides opinion.

To me what the fuck ever as I personall will play either way, but if it comes down to less competitive scenes and players as well as less money to be distributed from the pot then I will no doubt support a ban.

Nothing is more important than a scene and the competitive level and the pot.

To add more insight to what i'm saying even before this event there have been conversations of people quitting because of those two characters.

Also I happen to play Hilde. For about a month and a week now and even I can vouch for her being broke as fuck.

The only exception to her is Voldo who is always in BT stance so he can cause problems with her combos. Yoda because he's stupid, and possibly Astaroth who hapens to be almost anti every good character in the game.

In fact she is so fucking good that there was a call for blind character select in the GF's vs. me and KDZ.
Though it ended being swept to the side as I said I was using Kilik and not Hilde.

Through the course of the whole day my Hilde was untouched from casuals to tournament vids with the exception of a Voldo vs. Hilde match where I already new it would be annoying because of his BT stance but I still proceeded with it anyway.

Basically I feel this really needs to be discussed because it is becoming an issue.
 
I totally understand your points, S-U. It's definitely a controversial topic that should be addressed at some point.

Thing is, regionals and nats rules are already set, and they shouldn't be changed in such a major way as a ban or unban. It can obviously be argued that if nats ends up being Hilde/Hilde/Voldo/Hilde/Amy that'll probably be a problem, or at least some more controversy, and maybe it'll be too late to fix. At that point there'll be more realistic proof about the brokenness (or unbrokennes) of characters, and even then things will be discussed (argued), but nats will be over already.

HOWEVER, a lot of the current controversy seems to be driven by people who don't even attend tournaments, and it's very tempting to tell people who don't want to play SC4 just because of one character that they shouldn't let the door hit them on the way out. Catering to scrubs is a bad idea, but alienating new players is even worse. It's hard to call.

We've lost a few players in Canada, but they never really said why they stopped. I'm assuming other stuff just came up, and that's life. It sucks that other areas are being hurt by these characters, but constant compromise doesn't really get anyone anything.

I guess what I'm saying is that I really have no godamn idea, but that's because there's insufficient evidence. I still think we should wait till at least evo, and I'll (just this once) take the SRK stance and say we should just roll with it for at least a little bit longer.
 
Read my post carefully as I wanted to clarify I do not have the problem with Hilde or Algol. In fact I disagree that Algol is broken. Hilde on the other hand I can win without even thinking much outside of Voldo, Yoda, and maybe Astaroth and I can still tell that she's broke.

In fact in regards to Ceirnian:

In the tier thread where I stated I can GI Hilde's charges on reaction. I did exactly that. Not messing up once. Not one time. Prior to that KDZ attempted to do just that during the tourney and failed everytime.
In fact I outright slaughtered HackerMike's Hilde just mainly off of that.

You guys are missing the point i'm trying to make and that's the community factor. Equals less competition and less money.

Other than that for people who are not biased and believe both or one or the other is broke can you provide the reasons why.

Edit:

Thank you page posts like that are what I am looking for.
 
You gotta be less adamant about it man. Change requires a lot of people to get off their ass and ban somebody, take it easy homes.

Or at least be a little more civil. I know you're peeved man, but let's be professional about it. :|

Anyway, as for the topic-

to my means, smarter/tougher opponents won't leave because of something like this.

so it's alright with me.

If people are leaving because of this, they probably weren't worth the time playing anyway.

hand me my ass-beatin' and I'll be happy.

but, if you're in this for the pot money, Iunno what to tell you.

ed. poker's always been a nice game, but I wonder how its popularity is now.
 
Ceirnian said:
Yes.

Do you realize how many times this topic has come up? Hell this forum even shows you threads with similar titles when you MAKE a new thread. Maybe you should sift through them before you start beating the dead horse again.

But hey if you want to cater to scrubs I have some more stuff we can talk about when it comes to bans. Let's ban Algol, Hilde, Yoda, Kilik, Vader, Starkiller, Ivy,, Rock, throws, ringouts, wall combos, perfects (scrubs hate to be perfected), lows and any form of player skill. Then we can make a new ruleset that will be no items, fox only...

FINAL DESTINATION
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Okay thanks for the answer. Most appreciated.

All I have left to say to u is do u accept my EVO ft5 money match? Please do.

DrakeAldan said:
but, if you're in this for the pot money, Iunno what to tell you.
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I refer to pot money for a number of reasons and one of those which I think has value is that some tournaments are just way to far for me to justify the price going out there. However if there is a good return I can justify paying to go out there to at least break even or profit going out there.



In regards to everyone else please proceed on with the topic.

Opinions would be most appreciated.
 
I don't understand how Hilde isn't broken.

When you have a character that you can't either; Make one mistake or get hit once, how is that not broken?

Not to mention that her charge moves give her hella advantage, you can't even punish her for just throwing moves out. She is the definition of No Risk-High Reward, and it is just plain ridiculous.
 
Runis said:
You need to bring up the POINTS for why she is broken. You've brought up, what she does to a community but you haven't really explained why the ban is warranted.


The fact you say you can beat hilde with someone other than hilde simply proves it's not TOO GOOD enough
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Do I need to. If you were unbiased the reasons themself would be obvious to you.

Beating Hilde with pure reaction off of countering her charges. That does not take away from how broken she is all. How many people can actually do that and how practical is it. Like I said in the other thread you were in as well. I can react but that does not speak for everyone else.
 
Ok then let's go by evidence. How many Hilde's are dominating regions? How many Hilde's are even getting 1st? How many Hilde's are even getting top 4?

Let's see some more of your tears.
 
People who can't react/adapt probably aren't good opponents. Just natural selection at work, I'd think.

(watch, I'll fail at adapting entirely after saying these statements.)
 
See S-U. I told you trying to reason with some of these people is hopeless because they will come at you with stupid dumbass comments. Most people dont post their opinions on this subject because well...its impossible to have a civil discussion with people on here. And some wonder why SC4 @ Nats/Evo is barely getting any hype...lol.

The only reasonable case to ban something because it is “too good” is when that tactic completely dominates the entire game, to the exclusion of other tactics.
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Lol. Almost full stage ring out on a whiffed ANYTHING is sooooooooo not going to dominiate SC4 sooner or later. Fighting Hilde is like...playing with a red blinking Soul Gauge all the time starting from Round 1. Instead of instantly losing the round because you blocked...you instantly lose the round because you got launched.
 
I know exactly why she's broken.
Skewed risk reward
Best step
combine that with safety.

Why I don't think the ban is warranted?
Charges make her telegraphed. She doesn't have enough POWERFUL (not safe) and abusable lows to force a mixup game.
She's got what? Slide Kick/C3B mixup. That requires you to run in at them.
She has ONE body attack (Wr A+B), other than that it's all gonna be weapon based and kicks. Her kicks are mostly bad frames bordering on unsafe. They're only really good for pokes.
The majority of her attacks are i18 or greater, and other than 2A, 2K or 6A+K, she has no decent interrupt moves.
C3A's advantage is +3. that means all she really has is 2A and 6A+K that can interrupt. those can both be jumped/ducked and punished.
 
I am pretty sure SC vets knew to some degree it would happen. Maybe they hoped that it wouldn't but hey that's what happens. And I told them so, and yes in the end it is very lonely.

Should hilde be banned...regardless of whatever impact she might or might not have on tourney turnouts? The answer isn't so simple; this community isn't unified in any way to come to any agreement about anything. Every region and tourney directors do whatever they like. So in the end just forget about it.

Hilde players seem to be very stupid. A minority but damn are they loud. I am quite sure you can defend your position with at least an ounce of intelligence.
 
I get that this topic is never going to go anywhere, but this trolling is really reaching.

Dully, you don't think it's possible for someone to beat a broken character? Like, ever? And S-U is saying that even though he can GI her charges on reaction, she's still broken. Those two concepts are not mutually exclusive, and they don't depend on his actually ability to do that.

Nobody is going to ban Hilde. She shouldn't be banned. I don't even get from S-U that she should be banned. But it's fact that she's the redheaded elephant in a lot of rooms. There should be something definitive said about her, either way, but it's just too early for that now. We can hope and pray for a patch, but if you're holding your breath I hope you've got a good life insurance policy.

Head + sand and trolling are not the answer. There's no godamn reason you can't have a rational discussion about this stuff, and that goes for both sides.
 
Something-Unique said:
Lol at like the same two or three people trolling threads like this trying to prevent rational discussions.

Everyone else please respond with your opinions. It would be most appreciated.
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You call talking about banning characters rational discussions?Sorry but I don't see how 1 character out of 30-something can destroy a community I"m against banning characters PERIOD"yes this includes boss/guest characters" If they're in the game people should be allowed to use them
 
In Savage 2, the good players could dominate newbies to a point where newbies would be disgusted, and it made them leave the game. Result, the game was total fail. 30 players at peak time.

They dumbed the melee system down, and now the veterans cannot slaughter newbies mercilessly anymore.
Result, a more carebear game and 250+ players at peak time.


Hilde defenders like to play with themselves.
 
In the Quake series a new player is lucky if he even sees his opponent before he dies. After years of newbie attrition there were only the diehards left. People play to this day, though, and it's still the best competitive FPS going.

Strangely, though, there are people who have been playing just as long as everyone else but who never seem to get any better. At all. Ever. It's the strangest thing. Not that it matters, since they still have fun, and it is possible for new players to get into the game; they just have to really, really want it.

Same goes for Starcraft at this point, too.

276.jpg
 
I'm not going to go into the Hilde discussion again since it's been done to death in this community, and... .lol

but I will say a few things. A. you have d-bags like ShenOu to thank for closing the damn discussion threads, thus forcing people to make new ones every time they have something to say on the matter of banning Hilde.

B. just food for thought- don't we have rules like the 3-second rule in basketball, traveling, backcourt violations, offsides in soccer, no biting or eye gouging in UFC, pass interference in football, etc. etc. for a reason? Were those rules implemented just to appease a "bunch of whiners" too? After all, you have teeth in the octagon, so it's part of the game. Why ban biting? I've got 2 arms so why dribble when I can just carry the ball whenever I want. "Just play the game!" right? I think some people have a problem admitting that adding rules and restrictions to a competition in the right places ENHANCES the game. I'll leave you guys to argue if that's what should be done to hilde or not. I'm just sick of the "It's in the game, so deal with it" attitude.
 
Plume said:
In Savage 2, the good players could dominate newbies to a point where newbies would be disgusted, and it made them leave the game. Result, the game was total fail. 30 players at peak time.

They dumbed the melee system down, and now the veterans cannot slaughter newbies mercilessly anymore.
Result, a more carebear game and 250+ players at peak time.


Hilde defenders like to play with themselves.
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No it's just some of us don't see the point in "fixing" or banning characters just because so called "pros" Whined about how ONE character was ruining the game for them.
 
Page, SCIV is seen as a button-mash-friendly game. Everyone thinks they know everything after one week.
The competitive players stay away.

Instead of trying to atttract 20 competitive players, maybe it would be best to keep the 500 low-tier character players and mid-level players interested.



angelic_fragment said:
i love playing by my self
plume also obvious trolls like to play by themselves judging by how many people like you
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Most people who don't like me typically write posts that are as weak as yours. So see if I care.

Felix007 said:
Genius! We'll dumb the game down so much, any 8 year old with half a brain can mash buttons and get reasonable success. That's the way to foster a competitive community!
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...And those who defend Hilde typically bring extreme arguments such as this.
"If we ban Hilde, then it will be Algol, Voldo, Rock and Talim!"
Have you seen ANY thread clones such as this talking about ANY other character than Hilde and maybe Algol?
No.
It means that if people ban Hilde, they might ban Algol and Yoda. But they will NOT ban anything else, ever.

And a more direct answer to your argument, it's 500 8 years olds, or the remaining 5 years old Hilde players. (All the 3 of them.)
 
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