Theory Calibur/Go to DEV/Like This Post Thread

That's not the yoshi combo im referring to, sadly i dont know the inputs to put the one that hoses me. And they land a lot! 50% of my Yoshi losses are to RO's against my friend.
 
It's going to be nice to see the chicago players again at dev. Just read some posts about oofmatic being gimmicks and stuff he's the one high level tourney player i see who doesn't get much respect. I've had great players tell me to my face he ain't shit but tricks. He's a great player idk why he gets little rep...
 
malek raph has one of the strongest CF games in Soul calibur 4

WR B also soul crushes in 10 and so does 22B as does 4B
prep A+B in 8 SEB B also in 8
11B is one of the best Soul crush tools there is crushing in 8 and being safe while hitting grounded he has many oki setups for it
His ranged poking and CF game are really strong......not much else to say about him tbh although thats all he needs

also zas cant outrange raph at all zas has horrible mid range pokes and is much more unsafe then raph
most zas players think its one of his worst match ups
 
I actually do agree with the notion that Yoshi is broke "on paper". I mean, in terms of what's possible if you look at skill videos people do 44bB 5-6 times in a row off of iMCF. Combined with an option 22_88B after the iMCF which lets you rotate the direction in which you are trying to ring out, this means you can ringout from almost anywhere on the map. Even better example: if you could hit the just frame every time on 1KKKKK, then it would be an i17 low, 30 damage on hit, -6 on hit and block, and 50 damage + knockdown on CH.
The thing is, I don't think anyone can actually do these moves at reasonable consistency, and if you screw up in either case you are paying a heavy price. So there doesn't seem to be much point theory fighting using moves that people can't count on as a part of their arsenal.
 
Malek: He has great range, probably best in the game. i17 pokes that reach so far... 3B is very good. Its b/c of range his options are so hard to beat. very good evasion and movement. He's good if you can space. Of course top tier characters like Ivy or Sophitia/Cass are almost impossible to beat with him, but he deals well with the rest of the cast. did you see me (raph) vs edge(amy)?
He is much better than yun and maxi that I'm sure of.
 
His only real weakness is how steppable he is and even that's not THAT big of an issue if you zone properly throughout. 22AA bitches! ^_^
And Yoshi is not broken: on paper or in practice. If Yoshi is broken on paper what does it say about Cassie? Or Amy? Or Kilik, Voldo, Sophitia and Setsuka?
 
Most characters do not have moves or combos that nobody can perform at 100% or even close to it. That's what i mean by on paper. I.e. every single Voldo move and combo that I'm aware of isn't too bad, and the top Voldo players can do all of his moves, just frame (he only has one) and combos at a very very high percentage of consistency. Kilik's grab into Asura I have trouble inputting personally and it's "hard" for me, but again all the top players you will rarely ever see mess this up.
Some characters though legit have moves on their move list that even the top players cannot do at 100% or even 90%. Taki's A:6 is another example, in principle its an i10 mid punisher for I think like 35 damage or more plus wake up options. There's actually an argument going on in the Taki thread right now where Rufus (a top Taki player) is basically saying not to try punishing with A:6 because its so hard to hit and it's not worth the risk.
Yoshi has a lot of moves like that. I don't know if there is a theoretical maximum to how many 44bB's you can get in various situations, but the frames on the combo are super tight and there is a big disparity between how many people can get in skill videos and how many people go for in tournaments. Similarly with 1KKKKK, if you can hit the JF every single time its completely unbalanced as a low but if you miss the JF it's like -50 at the end.
 
Nirf said:
Most characters do not have moves or combos that nobody can perform at 100% or even close to it. That's what i mean by on paper. I.e. every single Voldo move and combo that I'm aware of isn't too bad, and the top Voldo players can do all of his moves, just frame (he only has one) and combos at a very very high percentage of consistency. Kilik's grab into Asura I have trouble inputting personally and it's "hard" for me, but again all the top players you will rarely ever see mess this up.
Some characters though legit have moves on their move list that even the top players cannot do at 100% or even 90%. Taki's A:6 is another example, in principle its an i10 mid punisher for I think like 35 damage or more plus wake up options. There's actually an argument going on in the Taki thread right now where Rufus (a top Taki player) is basically saying not to try punishing with A:6 because its so hard to hit and it's not worth the risk.
Yoshi has a lot of moves like that. I don't know if there is a theoretical maximum to how many 44bB's you can get in various situations, but the frames on the combo are super tight and there is a big disparity between how many people can get in skill videos and how many people go for in tournaments. Similarly with 1KKKKK, if you can hit the JF every single time its completely unbalanced as a low but if you miss the JF it's like -50 at the end.
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1k series is never guaranteed... even on CH... Only guaranteed in combos...

4A is guaranteed on CH. Leads into iMCF/DNK combos.

Yoshi is very broken on paper. but again nobody can do this with him... If you could land the JF out of SDGF K:K 100% you could get half your life back and any moment in the fight. He has throws that cannot be broken only reversed. B+G4, and 6. = 4A juggles, 44Bb juggles, his suicide will hit you 90% of the time he tries it. if you could hit the first heal on the spin after the suicide everytime youd be raping everyone. REF can dodge any move into a UB unblockable for half their life if you guess right, then he can land the unblockable with K:K and get back half his life if you hit the JF....

But again none of this matters... because it will never be used to the point where it needs to be nerfed because all of it is so difficult to do, especially under tourney heat of the moment/pressure/nerves.
 
WARUI_NE said:
you aware thats exactly what I've been saying for forever and a day right?

what does it say about a player who even puts cassie on a list like that?
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Yes I just dont get why your saying it like it matters... It doesnt... Your saying it like hes OP when he isnt.
 
Warui_ne
Agree with him beeng a top CF character. But that's is not enough to a be good one.
CF alone is useless, cause you can only hope to win 1 round out of 3 because of CF. Except if you play Voldo.
Didn't know that Zas had trouble with Raph...

Belial & Warui_ne
About the range, the thing is Raph don't have any move with good push back. Which means you can easily come in and he don't have any answer on block to force you to give up move forward. 3B is the only move that you can use to try to do so. Because opponent has to guess if you're going to prep or no, this leave you enough time to move backward or to attack again before he can react. He also moves very well on the ground, just as Mina... this is not an argument strong enough. The thing is, Raph don't have enough damage. You can win several mind game but overall, the risk/reward is never in Raph advantage. Raph can't really decide wich range he wanna play, he has to adapt to opponent. If you cannot force your opponent into your game, into your distance then you'll be force to endure his. Raph has to do so in all of his match up...
I watched the matches Belial, Edge was basically 70% of time at close range... You won several matches because of basics and because he tried to duck sometimes 66A+B on wake up. He used too many mids and not enough lows. And because you are an overall better player. I don't see any victory coming from Raphael strong point... No CF for example. Several 44B ok. You used 2A, 2K, GI, throws, and of course 3B as a whiff punisher. By the way, Ws K sucks hard with Raph... I suggest you never use it, 6K is always a better choice in my opinion. Anyway, from what I see, you won because you are the best and not because of Raph.

But well Ok. Maybe Raph is better than Yun or Maxi.
But that's it. That's still very low tier.
 
blah....blah....only on paper...blah...blah. I'm still fighting with a person who can consistently RO me 60% of the screen with an i9 CH. The only saving grace is this is not easily fished for do to CH reliance and short range, but it's not in any way rare either. People land CH iMCFs all the time, just few really reap the full benefits of it and the one's that are are getting some pretty over the top reward for it.

Yes iMCF is steppable too...but you have to predict it, you can't react to an i9 with an i11 step...that will in fact get you CH'd.

You're also completely missing the point in us arguing that a small part of his game plan is OP, not the entire character. He can't rely on it like Hilde can and just fish the whole match. In fact a LOT of people often get angry when someone points out a balance aspect of a character and begin raging like we said we need a ban. I can agree Ivy has some OP things, but you don't see me stating she's OP, I isolate it to the respective situation and how easy it is to recreate that in a fight. NO character in the game besides Hilde and Algol have the ability to form a strategy purely based around their OP tactics (and once again Algol's is subjective to match up), this is why these two characters were of issue.
 
In theory land Cervantes is op too. Take out limits on execution and he's got some of the best options in the game: I15 mid into 60-100+ damage and wake up, 8A+B:B+K is -2 crushes in 10 and give iGDR on hit, massive advantage on block I20 mid that deals 70 damage, etc. Anyways that's all I have to say because "OP or not OP, the endless question" is pointless.
 
IvyFanboy said:
hilde and Algol have the ability to form a strategy purely based around their OP tactics (
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seriously stop talking about algol
every time you do I just forget everything somewhat smart you say (yoshi iMCF for instance) because you don't have a fucking clue about algol
if you think he can win with just spamming bubbles you need to learn some anti even against talim she has things she can do against it what makes that match up bad is how he can just option select her stances with his 623B auto GI and how his back dash 1B completely obliterates her attempt to start an offense. If you think bubbles are the worst part of the match up you are completely wrong, back dash 1B is far more annoying and a bigger threat then bubbles will ever be....


Bubbles can't enforce a match they are way to situational against people that know algol they are limited to oki and aproaching
Every time someone says "algol can run a match with bubbles against so and so" I face palm so hard because every character has an option around it. talim actually has a pretty good one IDK the notation for it though the move when she kicks you in the head and it causes knock down on hit and leaves you behind her or what ever that stance low is that stuns works to because she goes under 4(A+B)

or she can use the universal anti bubble step left GI 4(A+B) OMG MAGICCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC I know for a fact that you have never played against algol OFFLINE where you can't do this easily. I know this because I'm the only one that bothers with him.....


also malek raph has a ballin single A string his A is -2 on block
so you can do A~3B
A~ has small push back by itself but with 3B it becomes quite large
 
IvyFanboy said:
blah....blah....only on paper...blah...blah. I'm still fighting with a person who can consistently RO me 60% of the screen with an i9 CH. The only saving grace is this is not easily fished for do to CH reliance and short range, but it's not in any way rare either. People land CH iMCFs all the time, just few really reap the full benefits of it and the one's that are are getting some pretty over the top reward for it.

Yes iMCF is steppable too...but you have to predict it, you can't react to an i9 with an i11 step...that will in fact get you CH'd.

You're also completely missing the point in us arguing that a small part of his game plan is OP, not the entire character. He can't rely on it like Hilde can and just fish the whole match. In fact a LOT of people often get angry when someone points out a balance aspect of a character and begin raging like we said we need a ban. I can agree Ivy has some OP things, but you don't see me stating she's OP, I isolate it to the respective situation and how easy it is to recreate that in a fight. NO character in the game besides Hilde and Algol have the ability to form a strategy purely based around their OP tactics (and once again Algol's is subjective to match up), this is why these two characters were of issue.
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iMCF isnt OP... LoL yes I see so many yoshi's winning tourneys by iMCF's and ring outs...

Again take a look at your own game IFB. The shit is not that difficult to get around. Especially with Ivy.

Also stop exaggerating the length of the ring out. He doesnt get 60% of the screen everytime he hits iMCF.

Edit: ( Love the title) LoL
 
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