All character match-up spreadsheet.

[Solo]

All I can really say is Omega and Pyrrha both have great TC move to avoid Sieg's step killing moves. He can't punish much of anything they do. They have all the tools to give Sieg a very hard time. Other funny thing is the both have a universal answer to 3B. Omega and Pyrrha can both do their 22_88B to beat every option in SCH. The rest of his stances are too unsafe to even be thought of being used during these match ups. The main way I've seen to beat the Pyrrhas is to do a move that is slightly unsafe on hit and bait out an interrupter. You'll have to do this pretty much the whole fight. Or you can take your chances on making a read then whiffing your whiff punisher. Not to mention Sieg's wall combos glitch when doing them on the Pyrrhas. Their hitboxes make the match up even worse than it already is.

 

[SCPartisan]

3(B) into SBH will beat PyrO's 22_88B giving you a free SBH B combo if you bait it. IMO, it's much better to just 236B/DNS B after 3B until they start doing SCH K to beat it out. At that point you can start backdashing or otherwise dealing with the stance to get bigger damage off of your reads (not without some risk).

 

[ChaosK]

I personally would put all the greek MU's a little worse as well. I can see the point of Pyrrha and Pat being weak to spacing but thats about it imo. Pat for example can beat most 3B followups on reaction with his A+B GI, which can give him up to 113 dmg off of one correct read. I'd put Pat/Pyrrha as 6:4 in their favor. The omega MU is pretty much the epitome of a bad MU imo, i'd say 7:3.

If anything, i think its just Heaton being a little bit too optimistic (which we all love him for) ^^

 

[Solo]

3(B) into SBH will beat PyrO's 22_88B giving you a free SBH B combo if you bait it. IMO, it's much better to just 236B/DNS B after 3B until they start doing SCH K to beat it out. At that point you can start backdashing or otherwise dealing with the stance to get bigger damage off of your reads (not without some risk).

Thanks for letting me know.

 

[Reptile]

You can see here crow winters was able to give us an in-depth reasoning as to why he feels Aeon is imperiled in the Mitsu match-up. Solid information, good arguments, all substantiated.

I still think Aeon is 5/5 vs Mitsurugi. And giving a bunch of punishable moves punishable by the whole cast isn't exactly a way to prove he's at disadvantage. Also Aeon punishes Mits very well (yes 66K works on 3B on block). Also I'm tired of the argument:
"Character X is a better version of character Y." When their entire movelist is completely different.

 

[Bloodpixel]

I'm curious, why does ZWEI have 6-4 against Astaroth?

 

[JustinAkatsuki]

I'm curious, why does ZWEI have 6-4 against Astaroth?

Man....im curious too lol

 

[Heaton]

I personally would put all the greek MU's a little worse as well. I can see the point of Pyrrha and Pat being weak to spacing but thats about it imo.

It goes a little bit beyond just spacing, and there's a bit about risk vs reward for things that some characters can't dissuade as easily. For example:

Pyrrha

• Against Pyrrha 66A, Siegfried can enter SCH and more or less even the risk/reward and change the mix-up to 3B/66A instead of grab/66A, because no one is scared of Pyrrha's back grab (unless you're at the edge).
• Against Pyrrha 22K, Siegfried can either duck and WR (B) after the whiff or interrupt 22kK. If you think they'll only ever do 22K, enter SBH B and launch her even higher for it.
• Against Siegfried 4B on block, if the Pyrrha player punishes at not point-blank distance, the second A whiffs and Siegfried has advantage - around +6 or so.

Patroklos

• Against things like 66B and 66A+B, at maximum distance he cannot punish you on block whatsoever.
• His BB whiffs randomly on crouched opponents, and Siegfried and SBH is no exception. You can actually SBH B punish a whiffed BB.

The other part of those match-ups basically come down to them not having a good way to stop movement at distance besides really obvious horizontals, or in Pyrrha's case, spending meter. Just because the match-up is changed chiefly because of spacing and nothing else does not mean that the match-up is still in their favor. Spacing is an extremely powerful tool in a game where a millimeter can be the difference between being punished for all your life and being safe to all reprisal forever.

Pat for example can beat most 3B followups on reaction with his A+B GI, which can give him up to 113 dmg off of one correct read.

If Patroklos players are auto-impacting i10 and i17 moves on reaction, then they really should be winning more tournaments.

On the off chance that their Genome-soldier levels of reaction are off, however, and they somehow whiff A+B to something like SCH B+K, they're potentially eating SBH B for all of their life (read: half of it if the meter is there.) Not to mention that SCH A is a high and thus cannot be auto-GI'd by A+B, and if the Siegfried player is patient, he can actually hit him with ANYTHING after the auto-GI window has ended.

The omega MU is pretty much the epitome of a bad MU imo, i'd say 7:3.

Unwinnable under all circumstances.

Really, though, these are match-ups I live and breath, and I've died to stupid Ω stuff more than any other Siegfried player out there since launch (barring maybe Pantocrator. That would certainly explain his depression) ; these are match-ups I know the ins and outs of very well because I've been playing against them almost exclusively since launch. Literally all of my training partners play at least one Greek (probably because they enjoy watching me squirm), and I was basically forced to either learn how to play the match-up or drop Siegfried and go play pocket Mitsurugi.

 

[ChaosK]

Heaton i know of course that no one can react to i17 moves, what i meant was that the Pat can react to the transition into SCH, which is very possible.
You mentioned spacing, if the pat is good with his spacing, he doesn't have to worry about SCH K. If the sieg uses 3B to space, he can punish for massive life.
You also said it has something to do with risk/reward but in this case if the pat guesses right he deals up to 113 dmg (granted, the fully charged version can be difficult to get), and if he guesses wrong he eats SCH A for 20-40 dmg (sometimes even the SCH A whiffs).

I dont know, it just seems a little bit like double standards to me, maybe i am wrong though.

 

[Heaton]

Heaton i know of course that no one can react to i17 moves, what i meant was that the Pat can react to the transition into SCH, which is very possible.

If he's reacting to blocking 3(B), then it's just a reflex, and one that can be exploited for a lot of damage.

You mentioned spacing, if the pat is good with his spacing, he doesn't have to worry about SCH K. If the sieg uses 3B to space, he can punish for massive life.

If he's spaced it so SCH K whiffs, you can just SCH 4 out of range and then nail him with SCH B after he's whiffed. I have done this to Partisan many times before, and it brings a joy to my heart unlike anything else in the world.

You also said it has something to do with risk/reward but in this case if the pat guesses right he deals up to 113 dmg (granted, the fully charged version can be difficult to get), and if he guesses wrong he eats SCH A for 20-40 dmg (sometimes even the SCH A whiffs).

Right, but it's not just A+B VS SCH A. There are other ways to beat it:

• If spaced correctly (tip range) moonwalk with SCH 4 and whiff punish with SCH B.
• If spaced correctly (tip range) moonwalk a bit and enter SSH, and whiff punish with SSH BBB.
• If spaced correctly (point blank) strut forward with SCH 6 and whiff punish with SCH B.
• At ANY range, enter SBH, which makes A+B whiff because it's a high, and punish with SBH B.

So at the end of the day, the argument that A+B VS SCH itself has the risk/reward in Patroklos' favor is probably correct, but you are never fighting JUST one stance that has JUST three options. Siegfried's stances, while watered down from other incarnations, are still much more fluid than that, and just because an option looks amazing on paper doesn't mean that it's somehow become the Godlike Stance Killer From Olympus.

I dont know, it just seems a little bit like double standards to me, maybe i am wrong though.

Read above and see how the risk/reward isn't grossly in his favor. If you're having problems, post about it in the SA and I'll help you out.

 

[crow_winters]

I still think Aeon is 5/5 vs Mitsurugi. And giving a bunch of punishable moves punishable by the whole cast isn't exactly a way to prove he's at disadvantage. Also Aeon punishes Mits very well (yes 66K works on 3B on block). Also I'm tired of the argument:
"Character X is a better version of character Y." When their entire movelist is completely different.

But the whole cast dosen't punish those moves on block, and those that can often times don't get the reward that Mitsu does. That's a real gross generalization that absolutely isn't conductive to a matchup chart discussion. But you know that, and anyone that has tried to punish Aeon 3B with, say, Xiba/NM/Pat/Ezio... the list goes on, really, knows that.

Also, what meaningful move in Mitsu's movelist does Aeon punish really well aside from 2KB and 3B?

Also, you say "giving a bunch of punishable moves..." isn't a way to prove he's at disadvantage, but goodness, if measureing one's moveset vs. another moveset /isn't/ a way of figureing out how... one moveset fairs versus another moveset... then what do we do to figure out matchups? Purely tournament results? Do you really want to put Tira at #1?

Are you really arguing that there's no difference between the 32 damage Mitsu gets at all ranges for blocking Aeon's i19 3B (63 damage meterless, 100 with CE), which is constant and controllable vs. the 42 Aeon gets at POINT BLANK ONLY (anything over then kissing range causes 66K to hit on a later active frame, thus, safe) vs. Mitsu's i18 3B that Mitsu can alter and make safe with BE, thereby beating both your situational point blank only punish (66k) and your normal consistent punish (4b, 16 damage, which also pushes Mitsu out at the range you least want him in, 33B range)? (also, for completion sake, Mitsu 3B gets 63 meterless, 79 with 1 BE, 95 with CE, but has less range then Aeon 3B. Also worth noteing is due to the number of hits in the character's respective CE's, Mitsu's will deal more damage with guts scaleing)

So basically...

Aeon 3B
no real mid low mixup (instead trades for the step/no step mixup with 66a), same damage meterless, same damage with meter, less versatility, more range, more punishable, higher risk, same reward (arguably lower thanks to Mitsu 236B BE)
vs.
Mitsu
Best low/mid mixup in the game, same damage, more versatility, less range, less punishable (v. Aeon), lower risk, higher reward. And on top of all of that, the range point is moot when he has 33B to cover the range Aeon would normally want to throw his 3B/66A "mixup" at

5/5!

Really, though, I would love that matchup to be 5/5, since, as a fellow Aeon player, it's one that is relevant to me. When you have a convincing argument for why it could be even, I'm excited to hear it.. and to test it. This discussion is about controllable situations. Remember that.

You can be a better player, as I know you are and have been. Matchup charts can't measure your sick ability to get in your enemy's head. You can't be a better number.

 

[Solid_Altair]

I was shocked at Belial's evaluation of Ezio. So positive!

 

[LP]

Just stumbled onto this. Lol

 

[Bloodpixel]

I'm gonna repeat myself and ask why ZWEI has favorable match ups against Astaroth and Xiba.

 

[Solid_Altair]

I'm gonna repeat myself and ask why ZWEI has favorable match ups against Astaroth and Xiba.

If I may intrude...

I'm not the one who did the spreadsheet. I've just played ZWEI for a while.

Against Asta, I suppose Ein's push back can help you to avoid his throw game. And in close range ZWEI has nice options to deal with throws. 4(A) is a fast TC that leads to some mix-ups. And WR B deals some monstruous meterless damage (plus back over wall ring out).

As for Xiba, ZWEI's aGI works against that infamous kick (where most aGI don't). It is also an easy way to counter Xiba's AAK (again, where most aGIs fail).

 

[Slade]

The main reason I could see ZWEI vs Asta being in ZWEI's favor is Asta's virtual lack of a punishment game, which means ZWEI can get away with a lot more unsafe stuff.

For Xiba? I don't know. Being able to aGI 6BK/6AK is pretty useless since every character can either just interrupt or JG the 2nd hits. Ditto for AAK, which the 2nd hit of can be ducked and the third hit is unsafe anyways. However, Xiba is another character with shitty punishment so this might help ZWEI out also.

 

[crow_winters]

Yeah, that Xiba kick is absolutely a non issue. Most characters get very high damage punishes just with JG in that situation, and it's REALLY easy to do, at that point the only "difficult" thing is JGing the BE. The only real person that I know of that has a beat all option there is voldo, who can JG the kick, get put in BT, then use his BT grab> if there's no BE, Voldo gets a 50/50 grab, if there's a BE, Voldo grab evasion guarantees unbreakable backgrab.

Punishment on that is worth noting for individual matchups just to measure risk/reward, but just the act alone of getting punishment isn't enough to convince me it dictates the matchup. Both character's are more complicated then that.

 

[taffertier]

Question on how Viola supposedly has the match up advantage against Ivy, according to Ring this should be in Ivy's favor. And from what i gather it is as well, at best i would call it even.

Same question for the Viola-Mitsu match up.

 

[Ring]

I'm not sure what to think anymore about Ivy vs Viola MU because it's been ages since I played against a good Viola. I think if there is an advantage in Ivy's favor, it's very slight. But generally it seems more even.

I've looked at the list (Ivy), it looks pretty good but I think Ivy vs Natsu is def 4:6, and Sieg vs Ivy is 5:5. I'm not sure about Aeon/Hilde MU being in Ivys favor (both seem closer to 5:5), and Ivy vs Algol/Pat being even (both in Ivy's slight disadvantage)

 

[Solid_Altair]

Wow!

I have the impression that Hilde steamrolls Ivy. Really, she can out space Ivy. And Hilde's CAs are the doom of Ivy's annoying diagonal techs. If that is not a 7 3 in Hilde's favor, I really have no freaking idea of what is (not that my ignorance would surprise me).