Raph confirmed as SCV Nightmare :D

[SorceressSeren]

I believe that Raph is NM as Amy is Viola.
It fits too much, and there's not any outright given evidence. When you take a lot of what makes both characters similar, you start to believe it more and more, for example: Identical faces, voices, heights, interactions with other characters, evidence present in past games, ect. Raph and NM in V have the same face, voice, height, they interact with Viola differently then they would with others (even if it's just a little bit) (This also pushes up the Viola/Amy theory, but we're not here for that.) In past games, Sieg was the host and NM matched his credentials, for height, voice similarity (Not the same actors but they sounded similar to me at first. As it went on it got more distorted.) There wasn't as much of this evidence with Sieg as there is with Raph though, since Sieg was straight up NM and was kind of a lone wolf until 5, so he didn't really interact with many differently. And yes, while Sieg and NM act differently towards eachother, I'd think that the host breaks through now and then but it's mostly Inferno being a jackass.

THAT'S MAH CLAIM AND I'M STICKIN TO IT. MORE THINGS MAKE SENSE AND IT MAKES THE STORY LESS HOLEY

 

[DevilsDisguise]

I'm pretty sure Raph is Dumas, based on all the hints that's been uncovered. I don't want to re-iterate all the things that have been said but you get my drift. However.... HOWEVER.... there's something strange with the order. Most ppl assume Dumas turns back into Raph after he lost to Zwei and was thrown in jail/prison for being an evil dictator guilty of heinous crimes blah blah blah. But why would he be in a crummy dungeon? He's bound to be prisoner#1 in there and everything should be pretty high on security around him. But based on the descriptions from Raphael's story, it's like some abandoned far off prison in the middle of nowhere.

That's the one thing that's bugging me. If anyone has good food for thoughts, lay it out and discuss so that I may be enlightened.

The only only thing Nightmare and Raph have in common is their motive styles. Both charactes plan and wait, both have an educated vocabulary insult-wise.. Though him having Soul Edge again contradicts his ending in the previous game. I honestly would rather Nightmare be Hilde's father so she can get personally involved.

 

[WindupSkeleton]

It would be nice, but all of this info is purely circumstantial. We can't prove whether he is or isn't, despite all the things that appear to back the theory up.

 

[Ninjaguy446]

I'm pretty sure Raph is Dumas, based on all the hints that's been uncovered. I don't want to re-iterate all the things that have been said but you get my drift. However.... HOWEVER.... there's something strange with the order. Most ppl assume Dumas turns back into Raph after he lost to Zwei and was thrown in jail/prison for being an evil dictator guilty of heinous crimes blah blah blah. But why would he be in a crummy dungeon? He's bound to be prisoner#1 in there and everything should be pretty high on security around him. But based on the descriptions from Raphael's story, it's like some abandoned far off prison in the middle of nowhere.

That's the one thing that's bugging me. If anyone has good food for thoughts, lay it out and discuss so that I may be enlightened.

I was sorta thinking the same thing. What I think what happened was, the reason Tira didn't reappear again with Pattycakes and Pyrrha whas because she had gone to retrieve Nightmare's body. It could be Raphael at this point, but I think not. Then, Tira dragged him aaaall the way back to Ortheinsburg (no idea whatsoever how to spell that lol) and that is why Raph wakes up in a ratty dungeon and such. At least, that's what I think.

 

[Forgon]

It would be nice, but all of this info is purely circumstantial. We can't prove whether he is or isn't, despite all the things that appear to back the theory up.

While we cannot prove it, it is like all theories of science. They cannot be proven, but there is enough indirect evidence/ hints that we just assume them to be fact. Many of our latest scientific "facts" are based on these theories. Same thing with math, all of math is based on theories we can't prove. However, these theories are so ridiculously obvious, we accept them as fact.

In this case, The Nightmare-Raphael theory and the Viola-Amy theory (they are closely tied together) are becoming way too apparent in Forgon's eyes.

First off, for those citing Raphael's model could be PS "cutting corners" in their development of the game, there are several flaws to that rebuttal. First off, why use an existing character's face model instead of just a generic CAS face? It would have the same effect. This is not a question of why they chose Raphael's model but rather why did they not choose any other model?

Second: Its illogical to me to cite "because Dumas doesn't look like __________" as a reason they wouldn't choose a model besides Raphael. Assuming Dumas has never been a named character in the SC series, he could be created to appear like virtually anything the developers could have imagined. Therefore, any face Dumas has would be the face Dumas looked like. However, they specifically chose Raphael's face to be that model. I reiterate: why not choose any other model for that face?

Next off: Forgon's multiple posts listing the facts and similarities between Raphael and Nightmare as well as several other contributions from posters with other added tidbits. These also include my personal theories based on these ideas.

Spoiler

Imo, Raph is Nightmare. I think too many people assume that every character on the roster have to have been active at the exact same time. Remember, the story was supposed to be 4 times bigger than it ended up being. It was brought up earlier I believe will revive the point.

We know of several facts:

-Raphael's family was arrested after Dumas became active

-Graf Dumas is far more political and manipulative of events then our 2nd incarntion of Nightmare was in SCIII and IV

-Nightmare was reborn by Tira after dragging a corpse from under Ostreinsberg Castle

-At some point, Raphael wakes up in a prison cell

-At some point, Nightmare is somehow killed by ZWEI, possibly implied "Ring Out" via story pics

-At some point, Raphael and the 2nd Nightmare both died and mysteriously revived


We also know that Raph and Nightmare coincidentally share several traits both in and out of game:

-Raph and the reborn Nightmare are both 5'10"

-Raph and Nightmare are voiced by the same seiyuu

-Raph and Nightmare both have blonde hair in their artwork and the same blond hairstyle in CAS

-Raph and Nightmare share the exact same face models.

-Raph and Nightmare both died and somehow were resurrected.

-Raph and Nightmare both share the same bat theme in SCV

Ruling out none of these things and assuming Nightmare is in fact Raphael in SCV, this is my theory:

At some point after Nightmare is defeated and/or killed by ZWEI, he is apprehended and imprisoned (well "Graf Dumas" is at least). Most likely he was supposed to be judged for crimes of genocide and murder of innocents and being recognized as a Malfested by Siegfried, Hilde, and Patroklos.

If this is true, I assume Raph's bio begins at this point. Raphael, stripped of his memories as Nightmare, awakens in his cell with only the memory of his life beforehand as if he had just been asleep for a while.

The details of how Raphael was dead and is now alive cannot be explained because there is a huge inconsistency with Malfestation and the effects of Soul Edge's possession throughout the series, and specifics cannot be held when developers often shoehorn reasons for things happening the way they happen. However, I believe this is the sequence and general summary of events that Project Soul logically would take and have us believe.

In short: Nightmare died, Raphael revives in Dumas's cell, Raphael breaks out and becomes active searching for Amy.

Should this be true, and Viola is Amy (a separate argument I will make if needed), then it is logical that the portion of Viola's bio of her "regaining her memory" was also part of the cut story content and would have occurred between her last appearance and story mode and ZWEI's attendance in the battle against Nightmare's army.

In that case, the exchange they have in versus mode (Viola's hurt reluctance to fight ZWEI but callous taunt of being too curious, and ZWEI's indifference at fighting her and then slightly hurt farewell) might be related to the fact that ZWEI may have learned that Viola is a malfested like Nightmare/Dumas and his forces, likely via Viola's sudden resurgence of memory which she may have revealed to him. ZWEI feels obligated to kill Viola because she is malfested (as he shows no issue against Patty's crusade against malfested but the fact he is manipulated by Dumas and killing people who he cannot prove are malfested).

Whether Viola regains her memories because the one who malfested her (Raphael) revives and becomes active again is impossible to determine but I believe what I have already inferred and theorized is quite possible.

However it is only theory and cannot be confirmed, no matter how much evidence I bring forth.

Therefore, Raphael is Nightmare and Viola is Amy imo but Raphael and Nightmare were not both active and alive at the same time but the Raphael in SCV is one who is alive after the Nightmare of SCV is dead.

--Forgon

Spoiler

Here is the translations as posted by our illustrious and humble Tuzark:

Raphael
+ Very little I can add about him. The charts have him only linked to Amy and a few real-life figures (he was a supporter of Henry IV, for example).
+ About Nightmare's host: Soul Edge controls the host by having imprinted his own memories into him. He has forged a new personality and past out of the selected memories of the sword, which appears to account for him using Nightmare/Siegfried's old style. Not sure if it means it was a blank state beforehand, but I tend to agree with that idea.
+ The text also implies that what Dumas really really desires is to devote his soul entirely to the sword regardless of his well-being, and mentions he overwhelms his body beyond its own limits while using the sword's power.

Based on this (and assuming I interpreted all of this correctly):

1) Soul Edge will continue being the Zweihander because Inferno is using its own memories when possessing a host and therefore I am assuming Inferno simply prefers and/or is most talented with a zweihander so that will be his weapon for now on.

2) Nightmare's personality and actions (at least in detail) will vary greatly based on the host while still retaining the general personality that is associated with Inferno and its memories implanted in the body, making Raphael's actions as Nightmare probably just a perverted, twisted perception of his own (as well as his thought process and pool of options, ie politics over warfare when available) as Inferno uses the host to achieve its objective.

3) A host of Soul Edge will be used solely for the sword and any original desires or wishes the host has while wielding the sword will be drowned by the will of Soul Edge so it may use the host for its own purposes. Therefore, it is highly unlikely anything Nightmare is doing is what Raphael would want but rather what Soul Edge would want (theories pertaining to the idea that Soul Edge is keeping the host subservient by making said host believe their actions and choices are their own, ie puppet manipulation on the pychological level, are still valid).

The 2nd piece of knowledge we learn is extremely important. The implications (which make sense considering the sword's history) imply that Soul Edge (ie Inferno, the soul of the sword) will continually grow in knowledge and intelligence as it continues to jump from host to host, making it extremely dangerous.

Probably the most important leap we have noticed in Nightmare, his personality and rationale, are because a calculated, political character (Raphael) has perhaps infinite memories of manipulating events and playing politics to help him and his family maintain their status and social class. These memories are now transpired between Soul Edge; the sword now has the memories of Raphael in its arsenal of knowledge.

This means Inferno is no longer restricted by its previous knowledge. A situation involving a character that is extremely powerful and a strategic asset would be limited if Nightmare was still SC-SCIV Nightmare with Siegfried and Cervantes being the only notable hosts. No insult to the character's intelligence, but they clearly were never in an environment that gave them the experience for more complex, sinister schemes (both were essentially bandits, thieves, and/or cutthroats when Soul Edge possessed them as far as their experiences go).

Nightmare's options before: Kill character, devour soul, leave for dead

These options are what would be likely based on what our previous Nightmare has done (the only notable independent action of Nightmare was form a small group which still acted more as an alliance of warriors for a purpose rather than a complex organization).

Nightmare's options now: Kill character, devour soul, leave for dead, torture, manipulate to portray yourself as good guy, manipulate to break the will of the character with your awe-inspiring power, hold as prisoner for a bargaining chip, possess as new host due to their potential, corrupt to your side so that they may be your spy, use as a symbol for intimidation, use in order to lure out an actual threat or rival you desire, give to allies/potential allies in order to improve relations, turn her into a malfested doll to serve your will, etc.

The options are far more laid out and obviously are all things that involve the cunning and manipulation that a character (like Raphael) would have in order to come up with an see these scenarios. Our new Nightmare shows this level of intelligence and if a character like Ivy (who is both smart, has studied heavily on the sword, and knows advanced magic and alchemy) becomes a new host, that only makes Soul Edge even more dangerous as these memories would only strengthen it.

At some point, I would imagine Soul Edge could reach the point where it will be intelligent enough to begin body hopping in order to quickly gain knowledge (or intel from enemies who won't talk) and then return to whatever preferred host body it desires (servants could imprison the host until Nightmare leaps back into it in case it becomes active/alive and tries to escape). Soul Edge has become far more insidious and potentially dangerous, indeed.

--Forgon

Spoiler

Guys...i have another detail...and this is true...here a line of time of SoulCalibur...

http://soultw.blogspot.com.es/2012/02/history5.html​

​

And....translating this, in 1598 the Sorel´s family was sentenced by the king of france...for "interfere with Sacro Imperium" (Dumas appears in 1595) ....Dumas was named Graf in 1600​

Spoiler

That's actually a mistaken belief, dunno from where does that come from. In no point does any profile mentions any "self-defense killing" at all. In truth, Raphael realized too late that a noble the whole Sorel clan supported was malfested, and this gave his aristocratic enemies a reason to get him arrested. The betrayal of his family came afterwards: to save their own necks, members of his family tried to capture him for the authorities.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I like your theory, but I wanted to bring one interesting point to light: Raphael's age. It's given as normal, it hasn't changed since SC2/3/4 and there's no mention about a reason for this. Strangely, he's the only known malfested to have his age revealed (as all others are now "Unknown", despite their ages being stated in every one of their appearances), and no comment is given as to why he's not aged a single year (Cervantes in all previous games and Ivy are always accompanied with "Stopped at", and even Voldo got a small mention despite this having not effected his aging)

Personally, I tend to side with the ghost theory. The lack of aging without any of the usual explanations plus that glow in his feet in his official art (typical of ghosts in Japanese folklore) seems to indicate that. Obviously, this could all be just misleading and done on purpose, so I hope we'll eventually get an answer.

Food for thought.

All this information included, I would like to include several facts in relation to Viola and Amy.

-Raphael is in search for Amy (who mysteriously vanished)
-Nightmare has a unique win animation only for Viola
-Rapahael and Viola share unique opening and ending animations and dialogue
-Viola's orb is stealing her memories
-Viola and Amy have a similar 1p
-Viola and Amy share the same voice actress and seiyuu
-Viola shares several of Amy's animations (as well as some of Darth Vader)
-Viola's age (or if she even ages) is cryptic and unknown
-Amy's age before her disappearance was unknown
-Viola and Amy share the same face model
-Viola and Amy share a similar hair style
-Viola and Amy share the same eye color
-Viola has a Night Butterfly (moth) theme (Amy's SCIV apparel is called Night Butterfly)


There is a huge difference between theory-crafting and investigating. The former is caused when fans speculate on a single or small amount of noticeable similarities of the superficial nature (ex: "They look similar", "They have the same VAs!", etc.) based on a small pool of information (A single video or image featuring that character). The latter is when speculation brings forth a large amount of hints and evidence based in a large pool of information (An entire game, artbook, and cognitive skills).

To elaborate, this is not one or two vague coincidences being picked up and creating a flower. This is (as I have listed above and as mentioned in previous posts) a large amount of information that when brought together, creates heavy hints or even direct implications to the facts.

While there is always the chance of error, I believe that with the above mentioned, there are too many bits and pieces of information sprinkled around to be simply coincidences. There is a reason for it, there are no "pointless" facts regarding the relationships of characters in a game.

This is not even being look at to the last detail, as I could go through all of their lines of dialogue and tie in characters like Voldo to Raphael (who is connected to Dumas) and Viola to every other character and why that leads up to her connection to Dumas.

These facts are not coincidences, collectively they imply (as I see it) that Raphael is Nightmare and Amy is Viola. As far as I am concerned, looking at everything else, its just too obvious to say its not true. You can say its not fact, but, in my opinion, you cannot say its not true.

Also, for a lot of speculators, you can consider this post also a summary of most of what we know regarding our theory of Nightmare being Raphael for the past 20 pages. Forgive me for my failure to properly organize it; I apologize.

--Forgon

 

[Ninjaguy446]

snip

Omg as usually your info and theories and such are magnificent. I think Project Soul would be lucky to have you on their team. But the thing that's been eating at me is this: Isn't Zwei also a malfested? If he were a malfested, then why would he want to kill a malfested Viola? And I'd think that Zwei would have a little more loyalty towards Viola and accept that she's a malfested. But then again, I can see how he would be confused at what to do when his lover becomes the thing he loathes (see: Patroklos).

Another thing... Although I know that it is impossible for you, or anyone for that matter, to figure out how and why Amy discovered the orb. My guess is that as usual, during the 17 year timeskip, Raphael at one point told Amy to "Be a good girl" and he left her. Amy most likely couldn't stand waiting so she set out on her own. I'm guessing that she got into some trouble or whatever and obtained the orb somehow. BUT I do theorize that Amy found Raphael after Tira (who kidnapped him and planned to use him as the new vessel) attacked him and was dragging him away. Maybe Amy attacked Tira and tried to get Raphael back but failed and was badly wounded and some creepy old malfested witch lady thought the only way to save her was to give her the orb but it came at the price of her memories.... Or some shit like that. lol

Anyways, that's my two cents. Not as good as Forgon's 2 dollars, but nonetheless my two cents.

 

[Forgon]

Snip.

Thank you, I am abashed.

As far as I am aware, there is no evidence of Z.W.E.I. being malfested. While it is possible, I have never drawn any conclusions with that possibility in mind (mostly due to E.I.N.). Should the wolf summon be a variant of malfestation, that would change things.

If true, my only answer to rectify this error in my theory would be that Z.W.E.I. is unaware he is malfested too.

As for where the orb came from, who knows. Then again, since we have no canon conclusion to SCIV regarding Amy and Raphael, we only know Amy is missing and Raphael wakes up in a cell without Amy. The only two things we know for certain is how SCIV started out for those two, Raphael left and Amy went after him. For all we know, Raphael died falling off the cliff to Ostreinsberg and Algol was playing Astral Ball and ripped a portal and it hit Amy in the head.

Your idea sounds good too. With that in mind, we have several facts to base it on:

-Raphael leaves on a quest for SoulCalibur
-Amy at some point afterward sets off to find him
-At some point afterward, Amy disappears
-At some point afterward, Raphael wakes up in a cell
-Raphael died but came back
-Tira dragged a corpse out of Ostreinsberg Castle and used it as the new host
-Tira (as well as loyal malfested) helped gather the shards of Soul Edge to resurrect Nightmare

It is interesting to imagine what happened.

--Forgon

 

[ChaosK]

Ok lets take a look at all of these facts:

-Raphael's family was arrested after Dumas became active There was no official source about this at all. This info can be called dubious at best

-Graf Dumas is far more political and manipulative of events then our 2nd incarntion of Nightmare was in SCIII and IV correct

-Nightmare was reborn by Tira after dragging a corpse from under Ostreinsberg Castle like in every game

-At some point, Raphael wakes up in a prison cell correct but i dont see a connection

-At some point, Nightmare is somehow killed by ZWEI, possibly implied "Ring Out" via story pics completely irrelevant to the topic

-At some point, Raphael and the 2nd Nightmare both died and mysteriously revived like in every game (for NM)

-Raph and the reborn Nightmare are both 5'10" correct

-Raph and Nightmare are voiced by the same seiyuu correct

-Raph and Nightmare both have blonde hair in their artwork and the same blond hairstyle in CAS correct

-Raph and Nightmare share the exact same face models. correct

-Raph and Nightmare both died and somehow were resurrected. you already mentioned this, see above

-Raph and Nightmare both share the same bat theme in SCV like in every game (see SC2 Nightmare)

All in all there are a lot of things that hint to raph being NM and i could see it being true very well but lets not mix up facts with wishful thinking. A lot of the points people bring up really dont have any evidential value at all imho.

 

[Ninjaguy446]

snip

The funny thing is it could be the other way around. Raphael is the missing one to Amy because she was [possibly] searching for him.

I really hope Daishi is right about us keeping the excitement going, or even the DLC rumors in November because this series has a lot of stuff going for the storymode. Who knows, maybe Daishi started the DLC in November rumor and he confirmed it when he told us about the excitement. Hopefully, it's the 3/4 of the story we're missing. That would be awesome. He already said they recorded everything, so he wanted to incorporate it somehow.

 

[taffertier]

A hypothetical situation if you will.

Lets say you're baking a pie, and you put it on the windowsill to cool. Some guy walks up and steals the pie and runs off. Before this however you get a good look at him. Height, weight, hair, eyes, all that. You give chase and he turns the corner, for a split second evading your line of sight.

Then as you turn the corner you see a guy who looks EXACTLY like that man running down the street holding a pie. Are you going to assume he is the pie thief? Or are you going to think "I shouldnt jump to conclusions, there's no way of knowing for sure if that's the same person".

 

[KiraxSummers]

Hell yeah. Gimme my goddamn pie back.

 

[Forgon]

My reply for ChaosK is in spoiler tags.

Spoiler

Ok lets take a look at all of these facts:

-Raphael's family was arrested after Dumas became active There was no official source about this at all. This info can be called dubious at best

Fair enough.

-Nightmare was reborn by Tira after dragging a corpse from under Ostreinsberg Castle like in every game

Elaborate. As far I am aware, Nightmare has never been reborn in this manner before.

-At some point, Raphael wakes up in a prison cell correct but i dont see a connection

I was just listing a fact, not everything is a direct connection to the Nightmare-Raphael theory.

-At some point, Nightmare is somehow killed by ZWEI, possibly implied "Ring Out" via story pics completely irrelevant to the topic

This was relevant to my personal theory only. Please keep that in mind on why I mention that in my quoted post.

-At some point, Raphael and the 2nd Nightmare both died and mysteriously revived like in every game (for NM)

Yep.

-Raph and Nightmare both died and somehow were resurrected. you already mentioned this, see above

The first was referencing facts period, second mention is the correlation between them.

-Raph and Nightmare both share the same bat theme in SCV like in every game (see SC2 Nightmare)

I assume you mean Nightmare. I would argue his theme has been more horse/unicorn theme primarily in SCIII and SCIV, but I understand what you mean.

All in all there are a lot of things that hint to raph being NM and i could see it being true very well but lets not mix up facts with wishful thinking. A lot of the points people bring up really dont have any evidential value at all imho.

You are right, they are not completely relevant to the primary debate, but also please keep in mind my original post I quoted served a slightly different purpose then just listing similarities. It was part of my personal theory on what happened assuming Raphael is Nightmare as well as providing evidence for why Raphael is Nightmare.

I can see though how some of these may be appear as filler. Nevertheless, they are true, whether relevant or not.

edit:

The funny thing is it could be the other way around. Raphael is the missing one to Amy because she was [possibly] searching for him.

I really hope Daishi is right about us keeping the excitement going, or even the DLC rumors in November because this series has a lot of stuff going for the storymode. Who knows, maybe Daishi started the DLC in November rumor and he confirmed it when he told us about the excitement. Hopefully, it's the 3/4 of the story we're missing. That would be awesome. He already said they recorded everything, so he wanted to incorporate it somehow.

I agree. I anxiously await a Super SCV or SCV story expansion.

--Forgon

 

[Fendante]

I'm pretty sure Raph is Dumas, based on all the hints that's been uncovered. I don't want to re-iterate all the things that have been said but you get my drift. However.... HOWEVER.... there's something strange with the order. Most ppl assume Dumas turns back into Raph after he lost to Zwei and was thrown in jail/prison for being an evil dictator guilty of heinous crimes blah blah blah. But why would he be in a crummy dungeon? He's bound to be prisoner#1 in there and everything should be pretty high on security around him. But based on the descriptions from Raphael's story, it's like some abandoned far off prison in the middle of nowhere.

That's the one thing that's bugging me. If anyone has good food for thoughts, lay it out and discuss so that I may be enlightened.

This is for Raph fans. Badass vampire Raph is still around. Don't worry so much whether he is NM. The NM in SC6 will not be him and he will be just Raph again.

About being top prisoner: It's not like people knew Raph's true face. He wore a mask as Graf Dumas and wore different clothes. If they knew he was actually Raphael, I could only imagine how people would react to seeing the former head of the Sorel family (I've heard the Sorel family was arrrested).

This are just a random thoughts. Maybe NM/Graf Dumas was thrown into the abyss by Zwei and didn't die from the fall right away. Raph might have woke up and crawled out of the broken azure armor (reminiscent of his encounter with NM seventeen years ago where he has to drag his wounded back back home) but died when his strength left him. Since he was separated from the armor, people would not have identified him as Dumas and just casually put in a cell, assuming he was one of Dumas's servants. Raph revived and broke out (easily since the Castle is in ruins and he has vampiric powers), having to find new clothes. I've always wondered why Raph's skin is paler in 2P costume. Maybe he wears the read costume during the day and since he is sensitive to the sun, he is very pale. At night, when he has to be furtive on his search for Amy, he wears his 1P costume with a hat.

 

[ChaosK]

-Nightmare was reborn by Tira after dragging a corpse from under Ostreinsberg Castle like in every game
Elaborate. As far I am aware, Nightmare has never been reborn in this manner before.

What i meant to say with that was, since Tira was introduced to the game in SC3 she was looking for a new body as NM's host, that she could bring to ostrheinsburg. Everytime she succeeded, it was non-canon. However now that NM indeed has a new host canonically, it is only natural that tira would bring a body to ostrheinsburg. This point really only confirms that NM has a new body but it doesnt further the theory of him being Raph at all.

I want to bring a big contra point to the theory.
If Raph would be NM, he really should be using a Rapier style.
Now you will say but SE can take on whichever form it likes, this might be true but throughout the whole series SE and SC (which is made out of SE so it works similar) have ALWAYS took on the form of his wielder, there is not a single case where this was not true.

To name a newer example, when Pyrrha wields SE it took on the form of a sword and shield.
So that Graf Dumas NM wields a Zweihander can only mean two things:

- Either Raphs willpower was lower than every SE/SC wielder before:
Very unlikely because just to name one, pyrrha will most likely have a lower willpower than raph
This also clashes with the thing that this new NM is more political than before, suggesting that the current host has strong willpower over SE.

- or Graf Dumas is not Raph and just a random guy:
When PS wants to give NM his former Zweihander style than the only ways of doing so, would be to give Soul Edge no host at all (like in SC3/4) or a host that was using Zweihanders himself (Siegfried or a random new guy) or someone with very low willpower that Soul Edge can control completely (random new guy)

 

[SorceressSeren]

This is great.

 

[Forgon]

Snip.

Ah yes, I understand now. However, the intention of the point was to mention that Tira took a corpse "from Ostreinsberg" as if it was already there (unless I misinterpreted the line). No reason to get caught up on it though so I will drop it.

Besides a "so they don't lose Nightmare's style" explanation. His biography does say, "What the sword wills it to be" so you could say its picking favorites. However, Nightmare is a bit of his own entity himself. While shaped by his host and Soul Edge (Inferno), Nightmare refers to Soul Edge separately from himself, even when he was just Soul Edge in armor, and acts as a separate incarnation. In some ways, Nightmare is like Soul Edge made man, a person with the memories of the swords imprinted on him, which acts separately but closely to the sword's will.

Due to that, I can not comment on Raphael's willpower, although some have theorized (including myself) it was due to the body being just a dead corpse that the sword could willfully choose its own style for Nightmare. All other instances of Soul Edge forming as a weapon to its wielder have been when Soul Edge possesses a living person. On top of that, the only other time something other than a person was possessed by Soul Edge, it was an inanimate suit of armor which also chose the zweihander style.

You could argue that if the dead person is resurrected by Soul Edge and that it is Raphael, why would the new Nightmare not just pick a rapier then? I can't answer that but I think that any time we get an entity calling himself "Nightmare" in the series, he will be wielding the zweihander due to personal preference, regardless of his host.

Still, a valuable point.

--Forgon

 

[Age_of_Truth]

I haven't followed all this so sorry if this has been mentioned before, but doesn't Raphael say "Begone, guardian!" or something when he beats Voldo? And what with Voldo being Dumas's guardian in the story mode...

 

[SorceressSeren]

What i meant to say with that was, since Tira was introduced to the game in SC3 she was looking for a new body as NM's host, that she could bring to ostrheinsburg. Everytime she succeeded, it was non-canon. However now that NM indeed has a new host canonically, it is only natural that tira would bring a body to ostrheinsburg. This point really only confirms that NM has a new body but it doesnt further the theory of him being Raph at all.

I want to bring a big contra point to the theory.
If Raph would be NM, he really should be using a Rapier style.
Now you will say but SE can take on whichever form it likes, this might be true but throughout the whole series SE and SC (which is made out of SE so it works similar) have ALWAYS took on the form of his wielder, there is not a single case where this was not true.

To name a newer example, when Pyrrha wields SE it took on the form of a sword and shield.
So that Graf Dumas NM wields a Zweihander can only mean two things:

- Either Raphs willpower was lower than every SE/SC wielder before:
Very unlikely because just to name one, pyrrha will most likely have a lower willpower than raph
This also clashes with the thing that this new NM is more political than before, suggesting that the current host has strong willpower over SE.

- or Graf Dumas is not Raph and just a random guy:
When PS wants to give NM his former Zweihander style than the only ways of doing so, would be to give Soul Edge no host at all (like in SC3/4) or a host that was using Zweihanders himself (Siegfried or a random new guy) or someone with very low willpower that Soul Edge can control completely (random new guy)

Good theory, but both Sieg and Pyrrha were alive when Inferno took over. At that point, he probably has to bend himself to shape in to his hosts preferred fighting style. It might be completely different when it's a dead body because it's, well, dead. He could have just possessed, revived, and because the body was still freshly revived, could have been easily manipulable and match a style Inferno preferred for once. As powerful as he is, I'm sure there's still rules he has to follow when it comes to possession.

 

[Forgon]

I haven't followed all this so sorry if this has been mentioned before, but doesn't Raphael say "Begone, guardian!" or something when he beats Voldo? And what with Voldo being Dumas's guardian in the story mode...

Yeah, he also says a few things while fighting him too I believe. Actually, I am tempted to try clean hitting against Voldo and Viola to see if there is any unique dialogue (besides "AMY!")

According to Voldo's biography, he has willfully submitted to Soul Edge. After being broken free of Soul Edge's grip over him, recognizing his reality, Voldo goes back to doing what the real will of his master was (gathering Vercci's collection and storing it in his vault). He then seals the vault and returns to Nightmare to serve him because (I assume), he has either become brainwashed by Soul Edge's influence or simply prefers to believe the illusion that Soul Edge was his real master all along. Poor guy, probably just noticed how spending your life guarding a vault on a deserted island is not the best way to spend life.

The reason this confuses me is because I have no explanation for why PS threw that in there. Either Raphael instinctively knew that Voldo served him (Dumas) for a time or he somehow regained memories as Nightmare. I find it all very perplexing. This is another reason why seeing the cut story content might help with this.

As powerful as he is, I'm sure there's still rules he has to follow when it comes to possession.

Or the writers love making loopholes.

--Forgon

 

[taffertier]

I haven't followed all this so sorry if this has been mentioned before, but doesn't Raphael say "Begone, guardian!" or something when he beats Voldo? And what with Voldo being Dumas's guardian in the story mode...

This is true, and especially important considering Raphael never had anything to due with Voldo in the previous games. All of a sudden he knows Voldo is "Dumas" Guardian. It's a little suspicious.