Stuck in a rut

[Mr.MeatHook]

Fun fact: Including quoted text, this thread has a word count of over 14,000 words and over 65,000 characters.

I love these forums.

I... I don't get it....

 

[TiZ]

What kind of lows are you getting hit with? There are lows that are legitimate, and lows that shouldn't hit unless you're preoccupied with something else. Give me some names so we can check frames.

like I said, I didn't see actual moves in that paragraph. Gimme a B6 or a 3B or a 22A. If you can't get specific, of course you won't know what's happening.

There are two reasons I can't do this, and why it's also difficult to take notes after losses. One: I don't know the names or notations of the characters' moves unless they're characters I play. The only moves I can take a guess at identifying are the universal ones; AA, BB, K, 3B, 8A, 8B, 8K, 2A, 2B, and 2K... but even then, there are still outliers; for example, the move you'd expect to be 2B for Pyrrha is actually 1B. Outside of those moves, there's not really any formula to where you can look at a move and be like, "ah, that must be that character's 4A." In order to do this, I actually have to spend time playing as those characters. Which I'll get to later.

The other problem is that things tend to take place so quickly that, compounded with the fact that I can't identify the moves, I have no idea what to write, especially if I don't go back and watch the replay. My mind is so in the moment of the match, trying to keep up and trying to make the correct decision in the present, that I don't keep track of what just happened to me, and the match that just happened is usually a haze. Versus that one Siegfried player, all that I could possibly think to write is "attacks with a variety of mids and lows. always safe for some reason." Fortunately, I did manage to get a recording of a match against that guy before I reset my file. Here it is.

Why can't you force your will on your opponent? Why can't you flip this entire scenario so you're the one who doesn't care about what your opponent's doing?

Because my defense just isn't good enough to where I can simply shut them down when they inevitably try to swing back. If they hit me, the ball's back in their court to run train on me, and with bad defense, that's a very real risk.

BB is a mid poke, you throw out whenever. You control space with it, keep people from running in on you, whiff punish with it, attack at advantage with it.

AA is anti-step and fast, you use it to check the other guy's rhythm. If there's a lull in the action, you're guarding, it's getting kinda awkward, AA. If the other guy is stepping your BB, you wait until the same situation occurs again, then AA.

3B you use when you've hit enough BBs that you'll know when you'll be able to hit mid next. It's a "confidence" thing, I know I'll land a hit here, but instead of using BB I'll use something with more damage.

Controlling space and whiff punishing with it (because it has more range) is sometimes better than using BB. At tip range 3B's lack of safety is irrelevant because the punish won't reach.

Throws you use when all of the above isn't working. Opponent gets fond of blocking, you start throwing him.

If your throws are getting broken, just keep using them as they can't break all throws 100% forever.

If your throws are getting ducked or punished in some way, you have to make a mental note to use BB in those situations.

I hadn't thought about the differences between BB and AA in such a way. I mean, sure it kills step, but it feels like half of the verticals in this game track step anyways so what's the point? It makes sense to use when there's a guarding stand-off since it's typically faster and safer.

Personally, I get my ass kicked, there's two options. I can either

- study my ass off so this never happens again

or

- say "that's what happens" and go eat a sandwich

You have expectations about the game, I don't know where they come from. You can't expect to win without putting in the work. People just aren't going to let you get away with that.

[...] That's all you, fam. I don't know why you get frustrated when you lose, only you do.

I know I either gotta study or let it go. I don't know how it is for you.

[...] Just how it is. Lose now, win later. You can lose on the field or lose in practice but you have to lose somewhere.

You have a very different attitude about losing then I do. Psychological issues I have cause "you lose" to be translated to "you fucking suck, you sack of shit" as opposed to "you're not ready yet, train more." If I could figure out what to do about that, we wouldn't have this 14,000 word thread now (eat your heart out, NaNoWriMo). I really should message Lucius. In fact, I'm going to do that as soon as I post this reply.

Play against one person.

Play one person only in long sets. Be sure that they're not the type to switch characters.

If you need variety, play people that play the exact same character. i.e. pick a character like Siegfried, and then only play Siegfried players.

You can make notes about your experience, and then apply them immediately next time around. You remove the "character" variable, and you can focus on the rest of the game.

course, that takes some jumping through hoops to do, but it provides consistent results with quick feedback.

I know for a fact that this works... that 28-game set against Samshoking is all the proof I need of this. I went from "holy shit this is a terrible matchup what the fuck do I do" to "this matchup sucks but I'm shutting down some of his stuff and I already know what I could be doing better". But as you said, it takes jumping through hoops. I was lucky that Sammy offered.

You'll have to ease up on your attitude, then.

There's no way around it... It takes time. Lots of time.

I can put DOA5 in my PS3, hop online, and get my ass beat... because I just haven't put in work for that game. Same for VF5FS, same for SFIV, same for everything.

If you have a weakness, you have to work on that. It takes time. And while you're working on the weakness you're not actually playing the game.

You sit down and just play, you're gonna be struggling. That's entirely natural. I spend more time in practice studying the game than actually playing it. If I play without preparing first, I'm just asking for it. I don't get mad if I lose 'cause I know I didn't practice in the first place, so why should I expect results?

[...] You have to accept your situation. There's no magic bullet for this.

If you get steamrolled, and you don't want to have that happen, you have to find out why. That means you have to do research. That takes time, that's time you're not playing the game, all you're doing is looking at numbers and studying.

If you don't do the research you're never going to find out why. People aren't you, they don't know exactly what your problems are, so they can only contribute so much.

[...] When training "correct response", it is about winning.

IN THE FUUUTURE.

You are training so that you'll get a payoff later, that is, you respond correctly in situations without thinking, so you happen to win more.

During said training you're not responding correctly (and trying to fix it) so in the meantime you're losing.

There's definitely a theme to your reply here, two rather. The first is accepting the inevitability of losses, and the second is accepting the necessity to put in a lot of time and work. As I've already detailed, and as I'm sure is evident to you, one is really really REALLY hard for me to do, and the other simply requires an evaluation of what I want out of this game and what I'm willing to put in to get that.

So I thought long and hard about it. I've spent entirely too long of a time evading this reality, hoping that experience would simply fix all of my problems. And hell, for all I know, maybe it could. But it's certainly not happening at the pace I want, and all the frustration from my losses and my lack of progress is causing me to twist my mind into a pretzel, and even regress in skill a little bit; I'm not doing things that used to work anymore because I'm so preoccupied trying to figure out what the hell's going on and why.

I would always think to myself, "I shouldn't have to do this, this, and this just to play the game." I shouldn't have to memorize all the stances of the stance characters, shouldn't have to know the frames of everyone's moves, shouldn't even have to know the notations of everyone's moves since even that's something you have to go out of your way to get to know. But the thing I never considered was that I wasn't simply playing the game anymore. You can get away with this mindset up to mid-level, and then that's IT. Because really, you don't have to know all that just to play the game at a basic level. For me though, the basic level is over.

I am surrounded, both online and offline, by people who are fucking good at this game. Like, they are the height of mental acuity and physical dexterity. And not just this game, but every game I try to play with them. It should be no surprise to you that good players are in every corner of the arcade that I go to. People who've played Tekken for years, people who know Guilty Gear in and out, people who know every nuance of Street Fighter, people who know their ways around all of Marvel's bullshit, even as it seems new BS comes out every week for it. And of course, people who know Soul Calibur just as well as they know their other games. But when I play with them, I get stomped, and I feel like hell.

I could find another group to play with, people closer to my level... should be pretty easy online, but it's impossible offline. And what's more, I like the people I hang out with, both online and offline. I like hanging out in the stream, I like driving a half hour to the arcade. So I could sacrifice the relationships I have, basically give up the world I live in now, just to not lose, and then what? Would it be worth it? Would the sacrifice even be fulfilling? No way. Losing perpetually in the world that I live in isn't nearly as bad as not being in that world at all. Yet I still feel bad about getting curbstomped day in and day out. And I sit here, unwilling to do the work required to become one of the big dogs, hoping for things to just work out with time.

Or maybe afraid to do the work, afraid that all the work and effort I put in will yield nothing in return. The scariest thought for me is that I could study every single nuance of this game and be no better for the effort. Or hell, even get worse. I hate wasted effort. I HATE it. I've put off learning C++ for so long because it's such an intimidating language, and because easier languages exist that have the potential to do what I want pending the existence of the proper libraries for them. Thing is, they don't exist. They could in the future, but they don't now. And the problem is even worse in Linux-land. C++ and C just works as long as you recompile, but language bindings are even less available. Recompiling cross-platform code isn't nearly as frustrating as trying to get language bindings to work harmoniously across all of the big three. And I've been waiting, and waiting, and waiting for the magic bullet. What's just as frustrating to think about is that if I'd buckled down and learned C++ long ago, an alpha or even a beta of the game I've wanted to make for so long would exist now. So I am now learning C++. I'm going at a slow pace due to the limited time I have, but I'm doing it.

It's the same thing here. I was hyped and pumped for this game, and it clicked for me better than the other fighters I played did. There was a time where even I would go on win streaks in the stream lobby. Regularly, even! But as techniques emerged and I climbed up the ladder, I didn't put in the time to find ways to adapt. I just kept playing, hoping for it all to work out, and it didn't. And if I had put the time in before, we wouldn't be here now.

I'm going to break the cycle here, too. Winter break is right around the corner, and even though I work at my university, I get a fair bit of time off when Christmas actually rolls around. (Even though exams are this week, I still have to work next week. Boo.) The time will soon be in my grasp, and after re-evaluating what I want out of this game, I now have the motivation.

Here is my plan. I will learn to play every single character in the game to some extent. I should know enough to know the notations for all of their moves, and know what kind of stupid tactics they can exploit. I'm hoping to get all of the "Soul of ____" titles, but I'm going to allow myself to give in on that if it turns out to take too long, since I would like all of this to be done before the new year. It takes, what, 50 games with each character? I'll probably do all of this entirely offline, against the AI, since the concern is more to be comfortable with the characters... you guys think that'd be alright? As an additional note, this step does include Elysium, Kilik, and Edge Master, though I won't do my second step with them. As kind of a final exam to make sure I understand all the styles.

After I feel like I've done enough playing as that character, I'll make them the dummy in training mode and figure out ways to beat their moves. The first phase, learn to block and evade all of their moves. Especially those damn lows. And then try to get JG timings on them to learn JG while I'm at it. And then the second phase, learn reliable ways to beat their options. For example, I've already started this plan, and I'm starting with Siegfried. I'm starting to get a sense for what kind of things he can do when. What stances have what moves, what moves go into what stances, etc. So for him, in training mode, I will likely figure him out on a stance-by-stance basis. What's the most reliable option to counter most moves in that stance, and then what beats the moves that option doesn't cover? Once I'm done with this, I'll move on to the next character.

I'll stop playing actual matches until I'm done with this. Though if someone asks me to play with them, I'll play, and if someone asks me to go into the lobby, I'll go until I lose five times, to keep the frustration down. But I won't venture out of my own accord. I'm doing this, and I'm not going to stop until it's done. And if I'm still not better after all of that, then I've got different, possibly bigger issues.

 

[EyeofCalamity]

Tiz after playing you in our Ft 10 session yesterday..stop saying you're bad you're not..there is room for improvement but thats with everybody tho. I think you really need to control your emotions better..i know its hard hell i get pissed off every now and then but you can't let your emotions beat you down to the ground man, Go look at your replays and study your opponents movements carefully thats what the replays are for. For example in your siegfried match don't get up after 4(A) on hit or you're run into an unnecessary 50/50 you could of easily avoided if you just stay grounded. Get use to certain reactable animations like his WR AA or when astaroth does 44(A) you can use leixia's auto GI there just like i told you. I think you should go play and use the chars that give you trouble so you can have a better understanding of them thats what helped me.

Like i told you before I believe you can improve and get better hell anyone can but you gotta keep a clear head of it. Hell I remember going 0-10 and maybe 1 or 2 wins against Goofy grazel, Moldred and Reptile in a Ft 10. Yeah it sucked a bit but I learned something from those matches and I'll probably give those guys a run for their money the next time we play haha maybe but yeah man other than that drake is pretty much spot on.

 

[DrakeAldan]

Good to see that you're moving forward.

Outside of those moves, there's not really any formula to where you can look at a move and be like, "ah, that must be that character's 4A." In order to do this, I actually have to spend time playing as those characters. Which I'll get to later.

The other problem is that things tend to take place so quickly that, compounded with the fact that I can't identify the moves, I have no idea what to write, especially if I don't go back and watch the replay. My mind is so in the moment of the match, trying to keep up and trying to make the correct decision in the present, that I don't keep track of what just happened to me, and the match that just happened is usually a haze.

That's right.

If you want to know a secret- I suffer from the same affliction.

Losses just fly by. My retention is getting a little better, but that's only because I play online at home.


I remember sitting down next to RTD at EVO. I can't remember if he had his hat on or not, I think he did.

He was Mitsurugi, I was Patroklos, we were on... the Siegfried stage, the bridge with the gate.

Someone in the background yelled, "Come on Rob!" and then... blank.

Just blank.

I lost the first match, he turned to me to ask character select or rematch, I motioned I needed a minute, he obliged. I tried to recollect myself. (Didn't work.)

And then... blank again.

And like that, I was in losers' bracket.

Can't remember the slightest thing that happened. I go back in my brain to that period in time, and nothing's there.

I want to say I lost because I was whiffing too much, and playing too defensively and not enforcing my will. But I can't even be sure.

I can remember what a taste of hell looks like. But not much else.




All the more reason to save your replays.

The heat of battle is intoxicating, it clouds the mind. We don't need that- we need scientific objectivity. We need to look at facts and numbers. We need to look at the situation from the outside in.

When you can be objective about your loss and adapt immediately while it's happening to you you can truly say you're a master of the craft. I'm certainly not there yet.

In the meantime, you salvage what data you can.


Most of the time, knowing how to play another character isn't totally necessary. Just go into training and look through their moveset, writing down the notations of moves that look familiar.

Fortunately, I did manage to get a recording of a match against that guy before I reset my file. Here it is.

Danke.

---

Your aggression isn't that bad here. Needs a little work, but it's pretty good.

When analyzing replays like this, the main focus is paying attention to every time you get hit. Try to find out why this happened.

We'll go through this one as an example. (since I have experience, we can cut to the chase and you don't have to do research answering "why".)

Right off the bat, you get hit with 3B. You got hit because you were running in; you don't necessarily have to respect Siegfried's reach, but if you run in, your finger should be hovering over the guard button, ready to guard if the opponent twitches.

Running in is almost the same as being negative/at disadvantage, so you have to be careful when doing it.

Siegfried's in SCH, does SCH [A] which transitions into SSH. Sieg does SSH AA while you're rolling, SSH AA is low-low that is only NCC, not NC, so you get hit with the first and block the second. You miss a stab punish opportunity here, as SSH AA is -17 on block.

A moment later, you block a 6K and retaliate with a stab, which you really should not be doing unless you've done the prior research on what that successfully punishes. Risky stuff!

Siegfried retaliates with 3A, which actually is stab punishable, but you go for 22K instead...

After you hit Sieg with 236AA, you run over and 1K and it whiffs... you do 4K later on, so I know this stuff doesn't completely fly past you.

You go for the 1K again though (and it whiffs again) so you should make a note of that, to find something that works for you when the opponent is rolling.

You get thrown, you tech, OK, 2K, OK, then you step right into a wrAA. Hey, it happens.

You get hit with 2A+B, I'm guessing you haven't familiarized yourself with the animation. Sieg goes into SBH, then does SBH B. I'm assuming you are ducking at this point.

Right, next round.

Run-in guard, good. Check rhythm with AA, good. 236B after, I would... not have done that, but OK, it landed anyway.

As an aside, what do you use this move for/what's your reasoning?

back to the match, 4K, good. 22kK, good. AA's not the right combo, but ay, roll with it.

236AA here, why? What were you thinking about at the time? I would have run in and thrown, the other guy is probably tired of being hit right now after being hit 4 times and is ready to block.

Gets tripped up by the low, though.

Good 1K, BB gets blocked, then counterhit 3B outta nowhere. Looks like you tried to do 236AA again, why?

You've been dominating most of the round, it's unlikely that he'll retaliate with a throw or high (especially so since it's Siegfried who doesn't have a typical AA). You were at disadvantage, you should have blocked or stepped...

This guy's using... custom combos, I guess... You miss another SSH AA punish opportunity.

You get counter-hit again after getting AA blocked. What's the reasoning behind attacking at disadvantage here?

(As an aside, when you enforce your will, that generally means taking riskier defensive options when put at disadvantage, like JG or step, than just balls-out attacking at disadvantage. You can't do that unless in very specific situations where you know your opponent's response will be slower.)

4A into SRSH, SRSH K into SBH B. SRSH is a legitimate mixup, don't fault yourself by getting hit with that low. You might try staying still on the ground though.

You block 2A+B, good! but get hit by SBH K BE. looking at the frames, 2A+B into SBH is +2 on block. So, that was a frametrap, you got gimmicked out there. Well, gotta learn somehow, right.

2K into wrAA again. Looks like this guy likes doing that. That's a pattern, if you wanted to know. You're still not used to blocking wrAA, no biggie, it is a tricky one at first when you're still recognizing the animation.

wrAA is -24 on block, by the way.

Next round... Siegfried does 6B and whiffs. I see you backing up; when you back up like this the purpose is to cause whiffs, as you've done. Now, the thing is, when you're backing up, you have to be ready to whiff punish, you have to have your fingers "cocked and loaded" with that whiff punish ready to go.

It seems like when you back up, you just back up for the sake of backing up, or you want some breathing room or something.

Anyway, you run in, you're at -, you get counterhit with 6A. But, it was after a 6B whiff, I suppose that mistake's reasonable.

Sieg does some funky whiffing, then shifts into SBH and does SBH A. SBH A has a lot of range, it can catch you by surprise.

When you're moving around on the outside like that, eyes on the opponent, finger over the guard button. (I have my guard button set on R1, I guess RB on Xbox, so my index finger is dedicated to guarding and that's all it does.)

SBH A, 2A+B, I think that's a combo? You might have been able to side tech out of that.

You block SBH B. Here, you should have backed off, SBH B has some pushback on it, even though Sieg is -7 if you run in you'll only be even or worse.

You whiff an A and get 1B whiff punished. I don't think he meant that but OK...

You backstep a 3A, you run in on the whiff. I'm assuming you are reacting and recognizing these, just not fast enough.

Run in guard, good, you block a 6B... that is -18. At least 236B punishable, if not 3B punishable, especially at this range. But, you go for 66B, too slow, gets blocked.

4A into SRSH, good AA interrupt, and 236AA again. I would really like to know your reasoning behind using this move.

Blocked 6B again, you go for a 66B BE. yeah man, you've really gotta look at those frames sometime.

YOLO 22BAK, hey, it worked.

Good okizeme sequence here. Nice pressure.

OK, next round.

You get hit by the second part of 22BB, I don't know what you were doing... it looks like you stepped in, but that shouldn't have resulted in a Run Counter, weird...

lessee, 66A+B? That's -16 on block, you could've stabbed him.

BB counter hit, 'cause of course you can't attack at -16, silly Sieg, advantage is for kids...

236A, but you didn't go for the low. Good fake, good thinking. Smart.

Went for the 22K, looks like? and got CH 3B'd. Hey, it happens.

Another "custom combo". Seems like this one likes to do 3B, SCH A, SSH AA. You could punish that, in the future.

Got caught teching? Dunno why you didn't block low like the other times...

Teched out of 2A+B but got hit with SBH A, just gotta watch Sieg more.

And 2K into wrAA again. So, this is the third time this has happened.


And the unblockable finish. Isn't that nice.

So! Looking at all this, there were a few times you got hit legitimately. The other times, you didn't block, either because of move unfamiliarity or pressure, and you failed to punish 'cause you don't know your frames.

(mind; you don't have to memorize your frames by exact numbers, you just have to know when you can get free damage. wiki's always there for you.)

One punish can flip the momentum on your side so you can do like Round 3. I know you've got it in you, you gave me the proof!




Here's what I would write down for later.

SSH AA, double low sweep, is NCC, if it's not counter-hit you can get hit by the first and block the second. You can stab punish it.

3A is stab punishable.

Use 4K on rollers.

Watch out for wrAA, like after 2K. Mid-low, NCC. Really unsafe!

2A+B into SBH is a frametrap, watch out!

66A+B is stab punishable.

Watch spacing after blocking SBH B.


Stuff like that. Just little reminders, to keep you from falling into the same holes twice.

---



I believe you will improve with this plan of yours. Good luck, don't hesitate to speak up if you have any questions.

 

[TiZ]

If you want to know a secret- I suffer from the same affliction.

Losses just fly by. My retention is getting a little better, but that's only because I play online at home.


I remember sitting down next to RTD at EVO. I can't remember if he had his hat on or not, I think he did.

He was Mitsurugi, I was Patroklos, we were on... the Siegfried stage, the bridge with the gate.

Someone in the background yelled, "Come on Rob!" and then... blank.

Just blank.

I lost the first match, he turned to me to ask character select or rematch, I motioned I needed a minute, he obliged. I tried to recollect myself. (Didn't work.)

And then... blank again.

And like that, I was in losers' bracket.

Can't remember the slightest thing that happened. I go back in my brain to that period in time, and nothing's there.

I want to say I lost because I was whiffing too much, and playing too defensively and not enforcing my will. But I can't even be sure.

I can remember what a taste of hell looks like. But not much else.

To be frank, I feel a lot better to not be able to remember the shit that happens to me if the same thing happens to you of all people as well. Takes off some of the pressure.

Most of the time, knowing how to play another character isn't totally necessary. Just go into training and look through their moveset, writing down the notations of moves that look familiar.

Studying a character from the outside looking in is really boring. It doesn't engage me at all. I learn through doing; always have. I didn't learn my programming languages by reading a book, I learned them by using them to make programs, with the literary resources on hand to help me through confusion. (This is why workspaces fucking rule in Linux desktops.) Similarly, it's way easier to understand stuff like this:

Siegfried's in SCH, does SCH [A] which transitions into SSH.

Once I have done it myself. I could read about it on the wiki, but it would be difficult to retain, even though it's necessary. If I do 3(B) -> SCH [A] -> SSH [A] -> SRSH [K] -> SBH K BE, I know myself that's how it works. It's easier for me to retain stuff like that by doing them as opposed to studying them, which is just mind-numbing. So though it might be time-consuming, at this point I no longer have any gripes with spending time with each of the characters to understand them. I have fun with it by doing stuff such as knocking out parts of quick battle, running through arcade mode, making CaSes for the styles if I feel like it (I've got Jazz from Eternal Sonata as my Siegfried), etc. I already understand Siegfried better from the time I have spent, which is sure to be good for my matchup against him, though I still have a little trouble matching stances to names.

Your aggression isn't that bad here. Needs a little work, but it's pretty good.

When analyzing replays like this, the main focus is paying attention to every time you get hit. Try to find out why this happened.

We'll go through this one as an example. (since I have experience, we can cut to the chase and you don't have to do research answering "why".)

Well I guess it's time to party. Lemme fire up my local copy of this match on workspace 2, and I'll run through it with you.

Right off the bat, you get hit with 3B. You got hit because you were running in; you don't necessarily have to respect Siegfried's reach, but if you run in, your finger should be hovering over the guard button, ready to guard if the opponent twitches.

Running in is almost the same as being negative/at disadvantage, so you have to be careful when doing it.

There's a bad habit to fight.

Siegfried's in SCH, does SCH [A] which transitions into SSH. Sieg does SSH AA while you're rolling, SSH AA is low-low that is only NCC, not NC, so you get hit with the first and block the second. You miss a stab punish opportunity here, as SSH AA is -17 on block.

I remember thinking when that hit, "I'm too far away to hit back." So I ran in and 66B'd instead. Pyrrha's a secondary; while I have quickly become acquainted with the fact that her pokes are the bomb diggity, I'm still not quite familiar with her reach.

A moment later, you block a 6K and retaliate with a stab, which you really should not be doing unless you've done the prior research on what that successfully punishes. Risky stuff!

I was hoping he would attack me indiscriminately. He didn't, but he didn't hit me for it, sooo...

Siegfried retaliates with 3A, which actually is stab punishable, but you go for 22K instead...

Again, me expecting him to continue attacking, and hoping to dodge a vertical and smack him instead.

After you hit Sieg with 236AA, you run over and 1K and it whiffs... you do 4K later on, so I know this stuff doesn't completely fly past you.

You go for the 1K again though (and it whiffs again) so you should make a note of that, to find something that works for you when the opponent is rolling.

Got it.

You get thrown, you tech, OK, 2K, OK, then you step right into a wrAA. Hey, it happens.

That is the continuous attacking that I expect... but even though I know in my head why they do it in this situation as opposed to when I was blocking them, it's something that I subconsciously have trouble rationalizing, and I'm not sure why. Like, I know that they're more likely going to stop when I block them, and they're more likely going to continue while they're hitting me, yet for some reason my brain finds it more logical to mash buttons to try and get out. And of course, when I do have the sense to hold G, they're coming at me low and continuing to pressure me. And at that point it DOES make sense to mash buttons to get out since lows are typically - on hit unless they knock down, but I'm holding G and standing. Rofl... it's like I always do the exact opposite of what I should do when I'm on the defense.

You get hit with 2A+B, I'm guessing you haven't familiarized yourself with the animation. Sieg goes into SBH, then does SBH B. I'm assuming you are ducking at this point.

Yup.

Right, next round.

Run-in guard, good. Check rhythm with AA, good. 236B after, I would... not have done that, but OK, it landed anyway.

As an aside, what do you use this move for/what's your reasoning?

It's the stab. People hate the stab. It just sticks out in my mind as Pyrrha's staple move, so I just kind of think, "when in doubt, stab them." In that particular situation, I was hoping he would try to swing back, and make him hurt for considering the notion, and get more pressure on top of it, as below.

back to the match, 4K, good. 22kK, good. AA's not the right combo, but ay, roll with it.

Yeah, I only recently learned you're supposed to 3B after that. ^.^;;

236AA here, why? What were you thinking about at the time? I would have run in and thrown, the other guy is probably tired of being hit right now after being hit 4 times and is ready to block.

What I was thinking was probably something a little like this: "FHSDIFHSDLKGHFSDLHGS" and in English, that probably roughly translates to, "Finally, I've got him. I'm on him, he's getting careless! I have to keep going and press this for as long as I've got it!" What he's thinking was something that never even crossed my mind, and likely would have translated to way better pressure than continuously attacking. I know I need to find some way to calm down and make room in my mind to think about what they're doing.

But hell, even without predicting him specifically, I bet that's probably a very general response I could exploit. "I'm sick of him hitting me so I'm gonna block. OH SHIT THROWN." I know it's happened to me multiple times. It's quite frustrating. So I should probably work to modify my pressure habits to include throws.

Good 1K, BB gets blocked, then counterhit 3B outta nowhere. Looks like you tried to do 236AA again, why?

Because tech crouch tech jump tech crouch.

You've been dominating most of the round, it's unlikely that he'll retaliate with a throw or high (especially so since it's Siegfried who doesn't have a typical AA). You were at disadvantage, you should have blocked or stepped...

This is the kind of thing I'm still not considering. I still think in very general situations, and as Slade said, I'm just not playing responsively. I need to find some way to calm down and think about what they're doing, what they've been doing, what they can do.

This guy's using... custom combos, I guess... You miss another SSH AA punish opportunity.

You get counter-hit again after getting AA blocked. What's the reasoning behind attacking at disadvantage here?

Same thing as above; for some reason, I always do the opposite of what I should do when I'm on defense. I guess that's what happens when I panic. I panic and I go all topsy turvy. I miss punishes because I'm afraid to get hit when I'm not positive that I can punish, and once I get hit, I mash desperately hoping for something to stop them from running train on them.

(As an aside, when you enforce your will, that generally means taking riskier defensive options when put at disadvantage, like JG or step, than just balls-out attacking at disadvantage. You can't do that unless in very specific situations where you know your opponent's response will be slower.)

I see... Come to think of it, I remember Seditious doing something like this in the first few matches I played with him.

4A into SRSH, SRSH K into SBH B. SRSH is a legitimate mixup, don't fault yourself by getting hit with that low. You might try staying still on the ground though.

Got it.

You block 2A+B, good! but get hit by SBH K BE. looking at the frames, 2A+B into SBH is +2 on block. So, that was a frametrap, you got gimmicked out there. Well, gotta learn somehow, right.

Yeah, I'm starting to learn that in many cases, stance transition = frame trap.

2K into wrAA again. Looks like this guy likes doing that. That's a pattern, if you wanted to know. You're still not used to blocking wrAA, no biggie, it is a tricky one at first when you're still recognizing the animation.

wrAA is -24 on block, by the way.

I'm still not used to looking for patterns, and indeed, blocking wrAA. But DAMN is it gonna pay off once I do.

Next round... Siegfried does 6B and whiffs. I see you backing up; when you back up like this the purpose is to cause whiffs, as you've done. Now, the thing is, when you're backing up, you have to be ready to whiff punish, you have to have your fingers "cocked and loaded" with that whiff punish ready to go.

It seems like when you back up, you just back up for the sake of backing up, or you want some breathing room or something.

Getting breathing room is part of it, sure. The primary motivation is to not get hit. Which I did achieve there. The reason I didn't whiff punish is for two reasons: one; I recognized it late, as usual. two; I felt I was too far away to do anything, especially with the limited time I had at that point. For real, what could I have done there?

Anyway, you run in, you're at -, you get counterhit with 6A. But, it was after a 6B whiff, I suppose that mistake's reasonable.

Dem slow reactions.

Sieg does some funky whiffing, then shifts into SBH and does SBH A. SBH A has a lot of range, it can catch you by surprise.

Yeah, no kidding. O.O

When you're moving around on the outside like that, eyes on the opponent, finger over the guard button. (I have my guard button set on R1, I guess RB on Xbox, so my index finger is dedicated to guarding and that's all it does.)

You know, I hear about a lot of people who do that, but every tine I do, I only briefly think about doing that myself. I use an SFxT pad, and my shoulder buttons are just set to throw binds right now. (The default Type A layout actually works really well on an SFxT pad.) If I switched them to G, I wouldn't need throw binds anyway. I might do that.

SBH A, 2A+B, I think that's a combo? You might have been able to side tech out of that.

Teching, another thing on the laundry list of stuff I should do but currently don't.

You block SBH B. Here, you should have backed off, SBH B has some pushback on it, even though Sieg is -7 if you run in you'll only be even or worse.

I see... that makes sense.

You backstep a 3A, you run in on the whiff. I'm assuming you are reacting and recognizing these, just not fast enough.

Yeah, pretty much.

Run in guard, good, you block a 6B... that is -18. At least 236B punishable, if not 3B punishable, especially at this range. But, you go for 66B, too slow, gets blocked.

Blocked 6B again, you go for a 66B BE. yeah man, you've really gotta look at those frames sometime.

Yeah, I know...

4A into SRSH, good AA interrupt, and 236AA again. I would really like to know your reasoning behind using this move.

Tech crouch mid tech jump tech crouch low hit. It's all anti-evasion. So if they try to move away from me somehow, they get hit.

YOLO 22BAK, hey, it worked.

Good okizeme sequence here. Nice pressure.

Thanks. It's one of Pyrrha's big strengths, it seems.

You get hit by the second part of 22BB, I don't know what you were doing... it looks like you stepped in, but that shouldn't have resulted in a Run Counter, weird...

I guess I overcorrected due to not getting those whiffs in time, and ended up getting antsy instead, running right into a 2-hit string. Oops.

lessee, 66A+B? That's -16 on block, you could've stabbed him.

BB counter hit, 'cause of course you can't attack at -16, silly Sieg, advantage is for kids...

BB punish is better than no punish. I like to use BB when I'm pretty sure they're punishable but I'm not positive. I need to get into the habit of caching this data in the middle of matches, because if I hit with BB, that means I can punish the same move with Leixia 6KK or Pyrrha's stab.

236A, but you didn't go for the low. Good fake, good thinking. Smart.

Thanks. I'm still looking for little fakes like this I can do with Pyrrha. Leixia is full of them.

Another "custom combo". Seems like this one likes to do 3B, SCH A, SSH AA. You could punish that, IN THE FUUUTURE.

Got caught teching? Dunno why you didn't block low like the other times...

Teched out of 2A+B but got hit with SBH A, just gotta watch Sieg more.

And 2K into wrAA again. So, this is the third time this has happened.

More good reasons I need to find a way to make room in my mind for observation and prediction.

And the unblockable finish. Isn't that nice.

Delightful.

Here's what I would write down for later.

SSH AA, double low sweep, is NCC, if it's not counter-hit you can get hit by the first and block the second. You can stab punish it.

3A is stab punishable.

Use 4K on rollers.

Watch out for wrAA, like after 2K. Mid-low, NCC. Really unsafe!

2A+B into SBH is a frametrap, watch out!

66A+B is stab punishable.

Watch spacing after blocking SBH B.

Stuff like that. Just little reminders, to keep you from falling into the same holes twice.

Got it. I'll replace stuff like "stab punishable" with "-14" to be character-agnostic, but thanks for that.

I believe you will improve with this plan of yours. Good luck, don't hesitate to speak up if you have any questions.

Thank you very much. I appreciate it immensely. :)

 

[DrakeAldan]

In that particular situation, I was hoping he would try to swing back, and make him hurt for considering the notion, and get more pressure on top of it, as below.

If you're trying to punish someone for attacking at disadvantage, try 6K instead, it's safer.

Getting breathing room is part of it, sure. The primary motivation is to not get hit. Which I did achieve there. The reason I didn't whiff punish is for two reasons: one; I recognized it late, as usual. two; I felt I was too far away to do anything, especially with the limited time I had at that point. For real, what could I have done there?

If you recognize it too late, you have to let it go. But, if we're talking about what you should have "loaded", 236B works well as a whiff punisher.

In terms of range, from most to least, it's:

236B
6B+K
3B
66A

You should be thinking about these moves when moving on the outside.

66B is generally too slow most of the time.

Tech crouch mid tech jump tech crouch low hit. It's all anti-evasion. So if they try to move away from me somehow, they get hit.

Why not 66A?

BB punish is better than no punish. I like to use BB when I'm pretty sure they're punishable but I'm not positive. I need to get into the habit of caching this data in the middle of matches, because if I hit with BB, that means I can punish the same move with Leixia 6KK or Pyrrha's stab.

That's entirely right. Good work.

 

[damn-I-Suck]

@OP
I really don't get you man.

First you say "I suck, I need to get better, but I'm stuck in a rut"

Then you say "But I'm busy and I don't have the time to study, train, and practice."

Or you say "But training is boring and I want to play the game"

Then you go on to spend hours and hours typing up all these walls of texts when you could have just spend 20 minutes or so per character to learn the MU better. If you're so "busy" then why waste your time posting pages of text when you can spend half that time in training mode and net better results?

I mean for pete's sake, you're not even willing to select the character who's giving you trouble in training mode to go through the moves and see which ones give you trouble so you can learn the notations, and possibly study the frame data.

I commend drake for his patience. He shouldn't have to do the work for you. What you get out of this game depends on how much you invest in.

I know this post comes off as trolling, but this isn't my intent. I do wanna help you, but you need to be willing to help yourself.

 

[FenrisZero]

Fun fact: Including quoted text, this thread has a word count of over 14,000 words and over 65,000 characters.

I love these forums.

How much do you want to bet that this is all my doing? MHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

 

[TiZ]

@OP
I really don't get you man.

First you say "I suck, I need to get better, but I'm stuck in a rut"

Then you say "But I'm busy and I don't have the time to study, train, and practice."

Or you say "But training is boring and I want to play the game"

Then you go on to spend hours and hours typing up all these walls of texts when you could have just spend 20 minutes or so per character to learn the MU better. If you're so "busy" then why waste your time posting pages of text when you can spend half that time in training mode and net better results?

I mean for pete's sake, you're not even willing to select the character who's giving you trouble in training mode to go through the moves and see which ones give you trouble so you can learn the notations, and possibly study the frame data.

I commend drake for his patience. He shouldn't have to do the work for you. What you get out of this game depends on how much you invest in.

I know this post comes off as trolling, but this isn't my intent. I do wanna help you, but you need to be willing to help yourself.

This post would make more sense if it actually took only twenty minutes to learn a matchup against a character. And if I weren't playing as the characters giving me trouble to learn their moves (because I am now).

 

[Destro]

Play Nightmare

 

[damn-I-Suck]

This post would make more sense if it actually took only twenty minutes to learn a matchup against a character. And if I weren't playing as the characters giving me trouble to learn their moves (because I am now).

Yes, it does take more than 20 minutes. But it's it's better than nothing, and I do agree that practicing can be boring, but you still gotta do it.

Anyway, my last post was not tactful and I apologize. However, I think the point still stands. The time you spent writing up pages of text could have been put to better use, is all I'm saying.

Usually, if a character is giving me trouble, it's typically only a handful of moves that are bothering me. This is why I said 20 minutes. Find those moves that are bothering you, check frame data, etc.

Basically, what drake said already. Even he admits to not knowing every little facet of the game. Just focus on the things that urk you, so that you're not overwhelmed.

I think that maybe the game itself is daunting sometimes. That's totally understandable. It's baby steps, and one thing at a time. And remember: repetition is key. If you want something to stick in your brain you need to do it many times.

Learn your punishers, watch pro's, copy their combo's (I do it). This can save you a lot of time, but if you're still unsure you can always check frame data.

And don't worry about memorizing frame data just yet, that will come naturally from repetition.

Unfortunately I don't play/know leixia so I can't give you specifics, only general stuff.

Everything drake said is 100% right, so listen to him. He knows far more than I do.

Good luck man.

 

[TiZ]

Yes, it does take more than 20 minutes. But it's it's better than nothing, and I do agree that practicing can be boring, but you still gotta do it.

Anyway, my last post was not tactful and I apologize. However, I think the point still stands. The time you spent writing up pages of text could have been put to better use, is all I'm saying.

Usually, if a character is giving me trouble, it's typically only a handful of moves that are bothering me. This is why I said 20 minutes. Find those moves that are bothering you, check frame data, etc.

Basically, what drake said already. Even he admits to not knowing every little facet of the game. Just focus on the things that urk you, so that you're not overwhelmed.

Like I said before though, I learn better by doing. When it comes to Siegfried, I have to remember what he can do from each stance, and it's more effective for me to play as him and do those stances myself than to just look up the moves and try to memorize them with nothing in my mind to glue them to, so to speak.

Fighting against Maxi requires the same knowledge, so I'll have to do the same thing.

I think that maybe the game itself is daunting sometimes. That's totally understandable. It's baby steps, and one thing at a time. And remember: repetition is key. If you want something to stick in your brain you need to do it many times.

Learn your punishers, watch pro's, copy their combo's (I do it). This can save you a lot of time, but if you're still unsure you can always check frame data.

And don't worry about memorizing frame data just yet, that will come naturally from repetition.

Unfortunately I don't play/know leixia so I can't give you specifics, only general stuff.

I already know everything I need to know concerning my own character; setups, frames, combos, everything. If it's not matchups, it's my own bad habits that I need to shake, such as throwing out 3B every time I get a little bit of advantage.

Everything drake said is 100% right, so listen to him. He knows far more than I do.

Good luck man.

Thanks.

Play Nightmare

He's on my list. I was going to do him after Xiba and Ivy, but it might make more sense to go from Siegfried right over to him.

 

[damn-I-Suck]

I'm glad you mentioned Siegfried because I've been using that guy since Sc2 (when he was NM). He was the first character I learned to play.

Some tidbits:

SCH B and AGA are both +2 on block. Use these moves to set up frame traps, or to continue that guard break pressure. These are some of the exceptions to the rule that a blocked move puts you at disadvantage.

Also, standing K is his fastest move @13 frames, and the range isn't too shabby either. Remember this because there are many times when this is his only way to punish something, as seen on this thread.

http://calibur.8wayrun.com/threads/punishment-list-completed.14266/

It's awesome that these guys put in all that hard work for such a helpful set of information. That thread helped me immensely.

 

[Destro]

Forget the rest of the cast, play Nightmare

 

[damn-I-Suck]

Forget the rest of the cast, play Nightmare

He's my strongest character, hands down.

 

[Destro]

He's my strongest character, hands down.

awhhh yeahhhhhhh

 

[damn-I-Suck]

You use anyone else destro?

 

[Destro]

Rugi, Xiba, dabble in both Pats

 

[damn-I-Suck]

Xiba and Pat player here as well. Though I am having some difficulties with pat, not used to NOT having range :)