Grøh Frame Data Discussion

[Slade]

Grøh’s frame data can be found in the wiki, here. Questions, comments, concerns, corrections, etc. about his frame data can be posted here.

 

[Slade]

Verifying some of his stance entrances:

6BB6 is -4, +8 into Avenger on block and hit, respectively. 6BB6 into AVN B on block trades with 6B (i16). 6BB6 into AVN A+B on hit trades with AA (i12).

66B+K6 is -4, +10. 66B+K6 into AVN B+K (i28) on hit trades with 3B (i18). 66B+K6 into AVN B (i12) on block trades with 6B (i16).

4A6 is +3, +11. 4A6 on block into AVN K (i16) loses to AA, but beats BB. 4A6 on hit into AVN A (i24) loses to 2A (i12) but beats BB (i14).

A+B6 is +9. A+B6 into AVN A (i24) loses to BB (i14) but beats 6B (i16).

 

[Slade]

SCh 6AA6 is +23 into SoN on block. SoN K (i31) trades with Taki 2bA (i8); SoN B (i38) beats i16 but loses to i14.

I believe SCh 1BB6 is +31 exactly. GI will get Impact Countered by SoN 6A (i33), but GI activates on F2, so if it were +32, an impact counter wouldn’t be possible. SoN K (i31) combos naturally. The same holds for SCh 4B6.

BB is i15 at tip range. Tested with B (+2) into 6B (i16). At the very farthest range 6B will win instead of clashing.

 

[Eji1700]

SCh 6AA6 is +23 into SoN on block. SoN K (i31) trades with Taki 2bA (i8); SoN B (i38) beats i16 but loses to i14.

I believe SCh 1BB6 is +31 exactly. GI will get Impact Countered by SoN 6A (i33), but GI activates on F2, so if it were +32, an impact counter wouldn’t be possible. SoN K (i31) combos naturally. The same holds for SCh 4B6.

BB is i15 at tip range. Tested with B (+2) into 6B (i16). At the very farthest range 6B will win instead of clashing.

Awesome work.

Questions:
1. For SoN B after 6AA6, will it lose because it's got an actual slower startup somehow, or are we assuming they're doing something that'll hit vertical, as my understanding is it'll beat some faster horizontal moves by virtue of the absurd angle.

2. Do we have the actual SoN teleport frame data? I see 33f on the site, but startup breakdown would be nice. For example i'm fairly sure that 6BB64 on block isn't punishable by most AA's, as you'll teleport behind them and the AA will whiff (Same thing for perfectly spaced 6A+B64 vs at least soph, but seems to be character specific).

 

[Slade]

Awesome work.

Questions:
1. For SoN B after 6AA6, will it lose because it's got an actual slower startup somehow, or are we assuming they're doing something that'll hit vertical, as my understanding is it'll beat some faster horizontal moves by virtue of the absurd angle.

2. Do we have the actual SoN teleport frame data? I see 33f on the site, but startup breakdown would be nice. For example i'm fairly sure that 6BB64 on block isn't punishable by most AA's, as you'll teleport behind them and the AA will whiff (Same thing for perfectly spaced 6A+B64 vs at least soph, but seems to be character specific).

I only tested moves that would hit him midair. The STJ will beat a lot of horizontals, including Grøh’s own AA. Finding the startup and any invulnerability frames on the teleports is on my to-do list.

I tested the advantage on his various SoN entrances, but SoN is a pretty weird stance. It’s like AVN 6 except you only have access to AVN 6A/6B/6K (SoN A/B/K?) afterwards, unless you wait long enough, in which case it turns into true AVN. It takes 33F to do so, which means AVN 6A/6B/6K come out much more quickly than even AVN B.

I need to actually verify that SoN is equivalent to AVN 6 in terms of duration and other properties. If AVN 6 ~ AVN is the same as SoN ~ AVN then 4A6 (hit) → AVN 6 → AVN B should clash with 4A+B. I meant to check this, but I got caught up trying to find the impact frames for AVN 4A/B/K. These moves are pretty annoying to test. The teleports mean that buffered moves will come out in the wrong direction, so I can only test for clashes if the moves hit behind him or track 180°. I managed to pin down AVN 4K at i39 (4A6 on hit → AVN 4K trades with the 2nd hit of AA, which is i28), but the other two are really tricky. Looking at it frame by frame would probably be easier. But I don’t have a capture card, and I’m not sure if it’s possible to configure the PS4 to record at 60FPS.

I also didn’t have time to narrow down the hit advantage on 4B+K6 beyond +33~37 (AVN 6A combos but 6B doesn’t). The block frames in Soul Charge for 4B+K6 and 4A+B6 as well as the on-hit frames for 1BB6 still need to be tested.

 

[Windstar]

Ironically, AVN B clashes with a lot of moves, but won't break stance, this can be kinda useful in order to avoid punishment when entering AVN at negative frames and you need something like AVN B to shut down any sort of horizontal retaliation that might come at you. AVN B being 12 frames helps with this, and with the AVN sidesteps, you can really force players to respect, rather than punish, unsafe AVNs. Even Sophitia has trouble as TAS B is too slow to stop a sidestep from AVN and AA can potentially lose out to AVN B (though for Xianghua, Sophitia, Talim and Ivy, they are generally fast enough to AA punish unsafe AVN).

A fun note, is that Groh has a lot of moves with similar animations, but completely different properties. 66A and 22bA, 1BB and 4B+K. 66B and 44B+K are share similar animations but completely different properties.

 

[Slade]

Migrating a duplicate thread to this one.

So far, I’ve found out that, Gr0h’s 8 way run canceled into A,A string in his main attacks part of his move list is -1 frame disadvantage if blocked. How I figured this out was by setting the CPU to guard all for action 1 and then action two to standing jump afterwards.

@NewbieJordan Testing with the first-action and second-action settings in training mode can be unreliable, as in some cases there's a delay before the dummy executes the second action. A better way to test these scenarios is to use the recording feature two menu pages to the right of the dummy settings. To test block frames for example you could record the dummy doing the move you're testing then blocking immediately after, and see what moves you can punish it with. (If the move is safe, you can have the dummy do a fast attack such as AA after the first move is blocked and see what will trade with it; e.g. if the dummy does a blocked move then i12 AA and it trades with your i14 BB, the blocked move is -2.) See my above posts in this thread for examples; most of these were tested by recording the dummy doing one move into another and me trying different options to see what trades with the second move.

 

[Slade]

Thanks to Accel on Discord for discovering this and testing it. AVN sidestep is an autoevade aGI that works against verticals of all hit levels from F4–21. Testing scenarios:

Starter          | Counter       | Frame tested
-----------------+---------------+--------------
AVN K on block   | Groh FC A     | F1
WR A6 on block   | Taki AA       | F2
AVN B on block   | Groh 3A       | F3
WR A6 on block   | Groh AA       | F4
WR A6 on block   | Groh 3K       | F6
6A+B6 on block   | Groh 6/3A     | F6
WR A6 on block   | Groh 6/3A     | F8
WR A6 on block   | Groh 66AA     | F10
6A+B6 on block   | Groh 66AA     | F12
WR A6 on block   | Groh 4K       | F14
WR A6 on block   | Groh 8A       | F16
WR A6 on block   | Groh 1A       | F18
6A+B6 on block   | Groh 1A       | F20
AVN K on hit     | Sophitia 3A   | F21
WR A6 on block   | Groh 4A       | F22
6A+B6 on block   | Groh 4A       | F24
6A6 on block     | Groh 4A       | F26
AVN K on block   | Groh SCh 2A+B | F27
WR A6 on block   | Groh SCh 2A+B | F30

It will get Impact Countered starting on F4 and ending on F20. The F3 and F21 scenarios do not result in Impact Counters.

 

[Slade]

CH WR B is +4. 3B trades with Azwel 6B after.

CH WR B6 is +12. AVN B+K trades with Azwel b4 after.

 

[Slade]

AVN 6 TC starts F7. It’ll TC Grøh 66A after AVN K is blocked, but Grøh AA beats it after 6A+B6. It lasts till F20; AA will clip it after A+B6 on block, but not after 6BB6 on hit.

The evasion on AVN 4’s teleport seems to kick in at F13. AVN B on block into AVN 4 beats 6B+K (if you do 1A Grøh will get hit by it, but he’ll be behind the other Grøh). Likewise, 8A+B and 66K lose to AVN K into AVN 4. 6BB6 or 6A6 on block into AVN 4 will cause Grøh 3B to whiff, but not 6A+B6 on block.

3B seems to be i19 at tip. This can cause it to not launch after 22(A). If you set Grøh to do BBB into BB and you space it right your 3B will lose to the second BB (normally it clashes).

 

[Windstar]

Just make sure you're really close on 22(A) and you'll get a 3B launch in most cases. If you're in SC-state 4A+B can launch for guaranteed follow-ups.