Raph confirmed as SCV Nightmare :D

Nice theory, Forgon. It ties up a few loose plot strings quite nicely. I'm also of the thought that Raph came back to his senses after Nightmare was defeated in story mode (and Soul Edge changed hosts), possibly after a soul visit to Astral Chaos, because that's where all the cool kids are hanging out these days. I had taken note of how Viola's bio was written, implying that her memories had in fact already returned (causing her and Zwei to part ways), but I had written that off as a translation oddity or simply strange wording, but you've got me convinced that it in fact harkens to story content that didn't make the deadline cut. Hurray for reading between the lines.
 
IamSub0 said:
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Thank you, I appreciate it.

The bios are all written as if to explain an opener before an event occurs or provide a brief backstory but clearly end in the present tense to denote that this is where their "journey" in SCV leaves off (examples: "And so it was the two girls began their long journey west...," "Soul Edge's new "nightmare" began to sweep through Europe,") or they tell a cliff hanger in the past tense that indicates an impending event of that description ("Would Z.W.E.I., too, find his destiny changed by the clash of the two great swords?" "And so it was that, when Tira appeared to seduce her, Pyrrha's heart was far too fragile to resist..."

Viola is the latter ("until Viola's lost memories returned...") and clearly makes no sense otherwise unless you infer it was part of the cut story content. However, the details and workings of it cannot be determined. Since Soul Calibur doesn't have consistent plot or mechanics in its lore (no consistency between malfested characters or the effects of Soul Edge when it is inflicted upon others), I cannot determine if Raphael was reborn when he became Nightmare or if he was reborn when Nightmare died while he lay comatose in his cell.

Furthermore, the ghost theory may hold true but if so, it is peculiar as Raph is not an apparent Zombie like Cervantes but can be physically harmed, yet there could be implications he did not notice himself "leave" his body as he left the deceased Dumas in his cell.

And, most important of all, I cannot determine if Viola wishes to side with Raph or ZWEI now (this is getting Twilight in her) or if she desires to return to her persona as Amy or leave and be her own person with ZWEI. (She expresses reluctance with fighting ZWEI yet holds the callous attitude ("Curiosity killed the cat.") mid-battle which is the cruel, pessimistic attitude Amy is known for.

My opinion: Viola does not want to harm ZWEI as he (like Raph) was the only one who cared for her when she was alone and hated. Despite this, she longs to return to the first person to ever love her (Daddy!) and Amy's experiences as Viola with ZWEI do not change who she is and she is willing to fight and defeat ZWEI to escape him.

That or I may just be over-thinking this, either or.

--Forgon
 
Alright, you guys. Here's a little tidbit that I've found while in versus mode: Nightmare's opening vs. quote against Raphael starts out with, "Out of my sight, you filthy cur!" The latter responds with the words, "Do not delude yourself thou wretched fool!"

That made me raise my eyebrows a bit, to be honest, since Nightmare never said that to anyone else except Raphael. Makes you wonder, doesn't it...? =/

Also, Nightmare's win pose against him is similar to the one he had against Viola ~ he kneels on the floor, raising his glowing mutated hand with a chilling roar...! Hmm....

...And while we're on the subject, here's something else that I found in versus mode: Raphael's opening quote against Viola is, "You vex me. Who are you, woman?"

Viola's winquote against him is, "The moon will swallow the sun and it will never rise again." If Raphael wins, he said, "Stop looking into my soul. Damn you." Those winquotes really surprised me, really.

As for the ghost Raphael thingy, here's a theory that I came up with. Please don't kill me if I'm mistaken: What if he himself is a Living Poltergeist? Think of it as a living manifestation of one's own strongest desires and thoughts, made into reality by a dying man's sheer force of will alone. Unlike other ghosts, phantoms and poltergeists, it can actually manifest itself as a physical presence; hence you can see him walk, talk and fight around as if he were a living person. In fact, you could even see him - and Raphael himself, too - in the mirror! o.O

Nevertheless, Raphael still retains a significant portion of his tainted power brought about by his exposure to Soul Edge (including his own form of Vampirism). That power is slightly augmented due to the nature of him being a Living Poltergeist, and that makes him even more dangerous than when he was alive.

The fact that Viola herself - trained in the mystic arts of gypsies, mind you - managed to see him for what he truly is (and he KNOWS it!) made him pissed off and vexed for some reason. This led me to believe that those who delve in the mystic arts or magic like Viola can actually see past through his so called "Physical" form's deception and see him as a Living Poltergeist instead; hence, the main reason for his quotes against her.

...I really wish I could explain more, but that's all I could think of for the moment. What do you think of this theory...? ^^
 
Really? For me, Nightmare said "You fight like a mewling child" to Raph when he won. Raphael also says, "Do not delude yourself thou wretched fool" to alot of other people too. And Nighty says "Out of my sight, filthy cur" to quite a few peeps. Like Tira.
Lonewolf_Kai said:
As for the ghost Raphael thingy, here's a theory that I came up with. Please don't kill me if I'm mistaken: What if he himself is a Living Poltergeist? Think of it as a living manifestation of one's own strongest desires and thoughts, made into reality by a dying man's sheer force of will alone. Unlike other ghosts, phantoms and poltergeists, it can actually manifest itself as a physical presence; hence you can see him walk, talk and fight around as if he were a living person. In fact, you could even see him - and Raphael himself, too - in the mirror! o.O

Nevertheless, Raphael still retains a significant portion of his tainted power brought about by his exposure to Soul Edge (including his own form of Vampirism). That power is slightly augmented due to the nature of him being a Living Poltergeist, and that makes him even more dangerous than when he was alive.

The fact that Viola herself - trained in the mystic arts of gypsies, mind you - managed to see him for what he truly is (and he KNOWS it!) made him pissed off and vexed for some reason. This led me to believe that those who delve in the mystic arts or magic like Viola can actually see past through his so called "Physical" form's deception and see him as a Living Poltergeist instead; hence, the main reason for his quotes against her.

...I really wish I could explain more, but that's all I could think of for the moment. What do you think of this theory...? ^^
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I like this theory. It's similar to what I said a few pages back but I consider Nighty to be the more evil side of Raphael (more focused on power to build the new world) now and he becomes more evil as Soul Edge regains power while fencer Raph is more about fatherly love and finding his daughter. And since Viola has magical powers and all, she could see that there's something strange about his soul besides malfestation.
 
The title is a bit misleading...it took 12+ pages of discussion (so far...) about one thing mostly...well not that I care too deeply for the story but, even though Raph is the same height, voiced by same seiyuu..does he have the same body build type as nightmare....? Raphael is slightly skinny, and 2p Nightmare has more muscle..you don't just suddenly gain and lose muscle...and ditching a rapier for soul edge?

Raphael is not nightmare, unitl PS confirms otherwise, most of this talk is BS....
 
@ darkwings13: ...I stand corrected in Raphael's quotes against Nightmare. But I still need to play again, just to make sure that my eyes and ears didn't deceive me.... Thanks for that! :)

As for the other main issue at hand, what if Nightmare decided to take only Raphael's body since he seems to have difficulty absorbing the latter's soul (with a strong force of will, mind you)? What if, sometime later, that same soul unconsciously somehow managed to create an identical body through sheer force of will alone for him to inhabit and use so that when he finally "wakes up" to life, he goes around his business as if nothing is wrong?

The fact that separates a Living Poltergeist from ordinary humans is that the former's memories seem to lack something compared to when it was alive, and that it wanted to find some things, some places or even some feelings so bad that it looked as if it was somewhat obsessive from a human's point of view. Why so? Because only the memories, thoughts and feelings of - or even related to - what they truly want AND desire the most in their lives are the things that are most important to them that gives them a sense of TRUE fulfillment; hence their obsession with searching for those things - sometimes even at great lengths in Raphael's case. Otherwise, it will simply linger on in the living world and never pass on to the afterlife. It's scary.... o_O

Now, if you're wondering what will happen if the Living Poltergeist finds what it desires the most? A lot of things might happen that'll result in a few things. Here are some of them ~

1.) Either the soul finally disappears and goes on to the afterlife after fulfilling it's desire. Or...

2.) If the soul is wicked or greedy, it might even become even more obsessive and keep on doing what it wants. Or even...

3.) Becomes a living person again with all the memories, thoughts and feelings recovered in whole.



...I think I said too much.... Again.... ~_~
 
I think Dumas is the body and Raphael is the Soul. Dumas dont have Raph´s memories and Raph dont have Duma´s memories (in battle terms). Dumas fight with "the memories of soul edge" because he dont "have the memories" of Rapier...in the Japan Profile of Raph...Raph wake up with amnesia and he dont remember how he got here...and they make clear the fact that Raphael dont remember anything but remember "Rapier"...

here the profile...but is in chinese u_u http://soultw.blogspot.com/2012/02/sc5raphael.html...here Story, Weapon and Discipline... (sorry for my english...i dont know how explain you my ideas XD)
 
Lonewolf_Kai said:
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I really enjoy your theory my friend and I do think that's it one that seems very logical. Especially with Raphael artwork where smoke is coming from his feet (hopefully its not because he has athletes foot or something lol).
But now I have to wonder about nighty. If he's simply controlling the body then he should act more like his old self in sciv or even like sc2 when he controlled siegfrieds body. However in scv, his methods are more manipulative and he's now a powerful figure at court which is very differeny from the old azure knight ans more like how the old raph would act. Maybe I'm making this alittle more complicated than it is lol but I have a feeling there's a twist to this. But until P's decides to give us some answers, lots keep speculating lonewolf kai =)
Edit: so I'm thinking about his soul dividing into two somehow and rapier raph physically manifested a body to search for amy.
 
Kirio4 said:
I think Dumas is the body and Raphael is the Soul. Dumas dont have Raph´s memories and Raph dont have Duma´s memories (in battle terms). Dumas fight with "the memories of soul edge" because he dont "have the memories" of Rapier...in the Japan Profile of Raph...Raph wake up with amnesia and he dont remember how he got here...and they make clear the fact that Raphael dont remember anything but remember "Rapier"...

here the profile...but is in chinese u_u http://soultw.blogspot.com/2012/02/sc5raphael.html...here Story, Weapon and Discipline... (sorry for my english...i dont know how explain you my ideas XD)
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darkwings13 said:
I really enjoy your theory my friend and I do think that's it one that seems very logical. Especially with Raphael artwork where smoke is coming from his feet (hopefully its not because he has athletes foot or something lol).
But now I have to wonder about nighty. If he's simply controlling the body then he should act more like his old self in sciv or even like sc2 when he controlled siegfrieds body. However in scv, his methods are more manipulative and he's now a powerful figure at court which is very differeny from the old azure knight ans more like how the old raph would act. Maybe I'm making this alittle more complicated than it is lol but I have a feeling there's a twist to this. But until P's decides to give us some answers, lots keep speculating lonewolf kai =)
Edit: so I'm thinking about his soul dividing into two somehow and rapier raph physically manifested a body to search for amy.
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That, my dear friends, is just exactly what I'm talking about in my earlier post concerning my theory. Not to mention that both Raphael and the new Nightmare were acting like two separate halves of the same person. Also, the latter's attitude and intellect made his subordinate, Tira, walk away from him in disgust and formulated a new plan to make Phyrra the new host for Soul Edge....^^

If only that were all true.... But alas, even though all of the visual and story clues that were given to us look kinda obvious, we should nevertheless ask the right people for confirmation. I might be wrong about all this, after all....
 
Yes..and the "Dumas cant be Raph because Raph appear in the game like other character" is an invalid theory. This can be...One character in different time...like (before)Patroklos--->(After)Alpha Patroklos / (before)Pyrrha--->(after)Pyrrha Omega....why not Dumas--->Raphael? XDU...who knows...in the interview with Tago, he says that the people wanted Raphael...(I think he refers to Raphael with Rapier...Not Amy with the rapier style or Raph with Nightmares´ style)...and we have Nightmare and Raphael with differents styles...he mencioned the death of Raph and Nightmare in SCIV...and the reborn of Raph and Nightmare in SCV...obviusly he wanted relacionated them
 
You know, I thought a long time ago that maybe Raphael is just his soul (in SC that's possible), who has taken physical form. However his body and memories may reside as Nightmare -- and while not directly searching for Amy or wanting to create his perfect world, he may have his desires still in his mind. Thus he'd create a perfect world, but not thinking it's for Amy (just as an example).
 
Forgon said:
Interesting speculation.
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There are so many unknown variables regarding Viola/Zwei/Raph. I'm wondering if something has happened to Viola that has affected the manifestation of her malfestation (say that while drunk). She's still got the red vampire eyes, but it seems to me that if she still was drinking blood and only going out at night, etc., Zwei and others would take notice. Also, her age is curious, as she appears to be somewhere between the 14 that vampire Amy would physically be and the 31 of chronological Amy (of course, this a bit of an assumption that SC vampires don't age, and while I could have sworn that such lore was confirmed in-universe, now I'm wondering if I didn't just imagine that).

As for Zwei, there is so very little we know or can even infer about him. Is he malfested in some way? Why is he the only person that seems "real" to Viola? Is EIN a spirit that he controls or is it bound to him similar to Natsu's sealed demon?

Random theory: In the fluff about Kilik learning all his mimic styles, it's mentioned that he tapped into Astral Chaos and learned the fighting styles of Algol's soldiers and gained their weapons. At first, I thought this was just stupid flavor-text to explain why Kilik's a mimic, but perhaps those soldiers' souls are more significant than has been revealed; maybe these old souls are in some way bound to the conflict between the two swords, and eternally reincarnate to play their parts in this "tale of souls and swords" that "transcends time and history," and thus the PC characters that we know and love from all the games to date are just the latest incarnations of these eternal warriors, albeit without the knowledge of their circumstances, and possibly with subconscious desires and compulsions leftover from previous lifetimes (Character A must protect Character B, loves Character C and hates Character Z).

I'm not married to the idea, but it does explain a little bit. Of course, I could just be playing too much Exalted (a tabletop dice RPG).

Man, I do want some story-related DLC, or a comic, or something official that fills in all the glaring omissions from the game.
 
IamSub0 said:
There are so many unknown variables regarding Viola/Zwei/Raph. I'm wondering if something has happened to Viola that has affected the manifestation of her malfestation (say that while drunk). She's still got the red vampire eyes, but it seems to me that if she still was drinking blood and only going out at night, etc., Zwei and others would take notice. Also, her age is curious, as she appears to be somewhere between the 14 that vampire Amy would physically be and the 31 of chronological Amy (of course, this a bit of an assumption that SC vampires don't age, and while I could have sworn that such lore was confirmed in-universe, now I'm wondering if I didn't just imagine that).

As for Zwei, there is so very little we know or can even infer about him. Is he malfested in some way? Why is he the only person that seems "real" to Viola? Is EIN a spirit that he controls or is it bound to him similar to Natsu's sealed demon?

Random theory: In the fluff about Kilik learning all his mimic styles, it's mentioned that he tapped into Astral Chaos and learned the fighting styles of Algol's soldiers and gained their weapons. At first, I thought this was just stupid flavor-text to explain why Kilik's a mimic, but perhaps those soldiers' souls are more significant than has been revealed; maybe these old souls are in some way bound to the conflict between the two swords, and eternally reincarnate to play their parts in this "tale of souls and swords" that "transcends time and history," and thus the PC characters that we know and love from all the games to date are just the latest incarnations of these eternal warriors, albeit without the knowledge of their circumstances, and possibly with subconscious desires and compulsions leftover from previous lifetimes (Character A must protect Character B, loves Character C and hates Character Z).

I'm not married to the idea, but it does explain a little bit. Of course, I could just be playing too much Exalted (a tabletop dice RPG).

Man, I do want some story-related DLC, or a comic, or something official that fills in all the glaring omissions from the game.
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If anyone could get the Viola and Amy models and overlap them (not just her face) then maybe we could point out the subtle or huge differences in them. If Viola is Amy, we will know what may be implied by the developers actions as her appareance may be deceiving because of her new artwork (which makes her look older than her model), new outfit (which may on the new engine also help disguise Amy), and new hairstyle (may be why Amy's hairstyle wasn't imported) could all be factors.

ZWEI is an enigma because he seems to hold a unique trait. The amnesic Viola shares with him the shunning of society (like Amy) but Viola doesn't even know herself what Viola has been through. Poverty, loneliness, ostracization, despair, hatred, these turned Amy into a heartless, callous, apathetic child (and, quite honestly, a more interesting antagonistic character than Nightmare) so how would these memories affect her? How does this affect her relationship with ZWEI?

All the time they spent clearly was invested well and affects her (Her opening and closing lines are showing that) and perhaps its because (like her SCIV story) this is where we see that cold shell of Amy really vulnerable due to (amnesic) ignorance and this may be struggling with her identity of trying to be who she was before despite the fact she is who she is now.

As for your theory with the soldiers, it is interesting but ultimately arbitrary. Its a redundant and cliche concept for sure and tends to over-emphasize the "destined hero" trope. That is how I feel about it, honestly. Besides, do we really want every generation to have a possibly pedophilic step-father obsessing over his lost love step-daughter every time? :P

--Forgon
 
[quote="Forgon, post: 460573, member: 11677"As for your theory with the soldiers, it is interesting but ultimately arbitrary. Its a redundant and cliche concept for sure and tends to over-emphasize the "destined hero" trope. That is how I feel about it, honestly. Besides, do we really want every generation to have a possibly pedophilic step-father obsessing over his lost love step-daughter every time? :P[/quote]

You're completely right about the cliched nature of the idea, I guess it seemed more novel to me than most, as I don't consume a lot of fantasy-seeped entertainment. It also doesn't account for the characters whose style-predecessors are still living. Oops. Just what came to mind from the Kilik-learns-from-dead-warriors bit, which of course, could be a last-minute explanation for how Kilik mastered a bunch of styles in 17 years just as easily as it could be a plot-relevant aspect. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. (Just for the record, I had in mind more general character relationship carry-overs, as in "antagonism" or "affinity" rather than specific scenarios. Maxi to Astaroth: "Do you ever get the feeling of deja vu?" Astaroth: *smash*) Though the "destined heroes" theme is pretty heavy in the series already, so it wouldn't surprise me to see more of it in subsequent games.

I do like the stage for psychological development that's been set for Viola/Amy. She's got something of a blank slate to build upon via her interactions with Zwei and the others, but lacks the frame of identity that other people take for granted. Getting her memories back is both a blessing and a curse, and forces her to really examine who she is, who she isn't, and who she could/desires to be. Shades of a "be careful what you wish for" plot, though one could say that whatever occured to make her into Viola was significant enough to alter her personality enough to give Project Soul a good deal of flexibility with her character.
 
Either way, I feel Raphael is going to have the short end of the stick for this on. He is either going to get back Amy and have to deal with ZWEI (who could be hunting him and her or just want to take Viola back) or he is going to lose Amy forever, the one person that gives his life meaning. How tragic.

--Forgon
 
Forgon said:
Either way, I feel Raphael is going to have the short end of the stick for this on. He is either going to get back Amy and have to deal with ZWEI (who could be hunting him and her or just want to take Viola back) or he is going to lose Amy forever, the one person that gives his life meaning. How tragic.

--Forgon
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I think Raphael is gonna find Amy but eventually will have to fight ZWEI.
 
taffertier said:
Just for clarification Raph is 5'10. I remember mostly because his height always seemed ideal to me. It's partly why he looks so damn good in everyone's outfits.
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I just checked my sources and you are correct. Raphael is 5'10". Thank you for the correction. However, that does not detract my point as the numbers were wrong but the point still stands (new Nightmare and Raphael are both the same height, 5'10", as opposed to Nightmare's original height (from SC to SCIV) of 5'6" which actually helps emphasize my evidence that Nightmare grew substantially from his original incarnation into a height which is the same as Raph.

ShaolinTiger86 said:
I think Raphael is gonna find Amy but eventually will have to fight ZWEI.
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I hope they have those story expansions. If it had cutscenes and artwork slideshows, I would pay $5.00 for a character's story.

--Forgon
 
Forgon said:
Either way, I feel Raphael is going to have the short end of the stick for this on. He is either going to get back Amy and have to deal with ZWEI (who could be hunting him and her or just want to take Viola back) or he is going to lose Amy forever, the one person that gives his life meaning. How tragic.

--Forgon
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I think that's why Raphael is being considered a tragic character now. He's been through so much and is at the risk of losing everything, after risking it all before just to make Amy happy.

There isnt much of a chance for Raphael to get a good ending unless there is some major twist where Amy and himself are cured and he no longer has this mad fixation of ruling the world to keep Amy safe. This is honestly a very "Twilight" like predicament where Amy will have to choose between the Vampire or the Werewolf, each offering her a different future and something she longs for. In Raphael's case he offers her the first person to care for her and the father figure she never had. He's also a guy that frequently leaves her alone in castles and mansions to go on his insane hunt for the magical meat sword that grants wishes. In ZWEI's case he offers her the companion and friend / potential lover who showed her kindness and security when the world was out to get her and she again had no where to go. He's also a werewolf that can summon the upper body of a mystical metal wolf that enjoys punching things and has a great hatred for Nightmare, Soul Edge, and the malfested to the point where he might consider killing her just for being malfested, even though it is evidenced in Viola's victory quote against ZWEI that she has no desire to kill him and actually cares for him even though she is cold and apathetic to everyone else.

It's all very confusing and frustrating that we dont know the whole story.
 
taffertier said:
Snip.
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As I said before, I feel the victory lines for Viola v ZWEI and Raph v Viola are meant to provide possible incites in the timeline and way events are portrayed.

It is pretty clear that Raph v Viola is Viola without her memory and Raphael unaware she is Amy (unless through her cryptic end quote she regained her memory but rejects Raphael. How tragic). The fight definitely reflects that ignorance between them and how Amy has changed so much over the 17 year gap that Raphael cannot recognize her.

That causes another problem. Viola's bio is so cryptic that even her age is impossible to understand. "24 tri-color stars" is something vague enough that my search results produce nothing and that I cannot find an astronomical timeline or definition for such a term. My assumption is tri-color stars has to do with time and can be converted in some format to actual time (giving us a more accurate amount of years she has been alive).

But then ZWEI v Viola shows, as I stated, an obvious tear between the characters. Viola is hurt but Amy is callous, it is like split between who she is. ZWEI shows reluctance but determination. It should be noted, the implication is ZWEI begins the fight as she says, "Do we have to fight?" This implies ZWEI is the subject who is performing the action (to fight; fight) by her question refering to him and collectively associating her as taking part in the action (ex: we fight against each other, not we fight so-and-so).

Furthermore, ZWEI responds "Yeah," pause. Hesitation, a sign of reluctance. However, the response is an affirmative and is not a negative. Therefore, he accepts and then instigates the action by saying, "I guess we do." He is the one who creates the ultimatum, the all-or-nothing. The battle proceeds. Then there are several interesting lines to note.

One is the fact many of ZWEI and Viola's lines (to my knowledge) don't change. Obviously many such as grunts or signature lines do not change for characters but often times you see many lines change for related characters who have a specific attitude toward them (especially during a CE, BE, taunt, grab).However, Viola acts like Amy being cold, direct, and callous toward her opponent and ZWEI is actively hostile and is focused on defeating him (no "Why?" or "How could you!" when grabbed or using their CE at any point to my knowledge; it would be interesting if someone would provide lines for me to study).

Another is the fact that Viola has the line "Curiosity killed the cat" a line that not only implies ZWEI got too nosy (or close) to Viola and her life and/or identity (especially if you happen to overhear her by accident when she regains her memory and speaks aloud about who she is frantically) but also indicates that Viola had a secret of some sort or something to hide.

Finally, we have ZWEI's defeated line, "You're better than this." He implies faith, hope, remorse. He believes Viola is not just a malfested? Does he believe Amy is more then a heartless murderer? Does he think her allegiances are misplaced and should not be opposed to his loyalties (are we now implying Raphael may just win over Amy after all?)?

These lines definitely expand and leave implications for speculation that can tell us a lot about what we could possibly expect in future installments or expansions in the series. In all honesty, SC would make a decent anime if it got a good animation studio and good writers. This is the type of stuff that could be both deep and actiony (since video game and anime tropes tend to mingle and intertwine in depth and structure).

My opinion is therefore deeply rooted that Viola regains her memory, reluctantly must battle ZWEI, and is disheartened but determined to head to daddy (que the Twilight/pedophile fan-fictions). I also conclude that ZWEI learns about Viola's past/current state (as a malfested), is either ordered to or feels morally obligated to kill/capture her, and is as hurt by this as she is but is willing to cast aside his emotions to do what he has to do (in his mind).

My two cents.

--Forgon
 
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