a:g:A timing

@Zombiebear

You're tossing around some weird numbers, man. Also some of the stuff you type is just plain wrong, though I can guess most of it is due to typos or oversights in posting, e.g.: ag[A] transitioning to SCH, a+k[A] being +21 on guard making SCH K i15 etc. I'll have to review some of it when I get back into this game in preparation for the worldcup. Even though most of the numbers look whack theres always a chance they could be correct. And working with the correct numbers can only benefit me in the end. What do you use as basis for your frame testing?
 
@ Sacharja,
I use training mode testing against Algol and retesting against other characters with solid data (like knowing Amy's 6B is i11 etc...) I know how it works and I triple check everything... The numbers I'm throwing around arent that wierd... For Sig's SCH it takes him 25 frames to enter the stance using 2*8B+K (it's when I got a CH), I found the move's speed by doing 2*8B+K (the primary entry into the stance) then doing the attack... I didn't subtract the 2*8B+K frames from the attack, YOU did, to get the speed of the move while perminantly in the stance, but some of the numbers you (or I) got where wrong because the data we had didn't match up... SCH = 25 frames/ all other stances = 20 frames... For me SCH K is i36, thats doing 2*8B+K, SCH K... When perminantly in the stance SCH K is i11 (36-25=11)... It's what I do for all the stances for each character I test... For you a+k[A] would be -4 on grd, just subtract the 25 from the primary stance transition from a+k[A]'s +21, it's the same thing honestly... To me this makes sense, reason being if you use 3~SCH then do SCH K asap, SCH K will be i16, but if you delay the attack then it will be slower, so if you are perminantly in the Chief Hold stance (you know, shuffling around) you are essentially on borrowed frames if the opponent blocks the transition to begin with... If you and the opponent are facing one another and Sig is in SCH (both of you essentially at 0, not doing anything) that is when the perminant stance data comes in handy, that is when an i11 SCH K will matter... I hope you understand... I just use big numbers... aG[A]~SCH was a typo, sorry I do double check my spelling, that one just happened to slip by, as long as I get the point across... All fixed...
 
Well, if that is your reasoning Ill have to respectfully disagree with you. You cant use the basic data for manual stance transitions from neutral for transitions from totally different moves. First of all the transition from a+k[A] for example is different from say 2_8B+K both visually and (most likely) by frames. Unless you have a way to prove that the number of frames it takes to transition to SCH from a+k[A] is indeed 25 frames. The same goes for 3, 11 and other transitions to the same stance.
Second, claiming a move like a+k[A] is +21 only confuses people, because it contradicts the basic principle by which people calculate with frames. Even if your assumption is correct and every stance transition to the same stance does indeed take the exact same number of frames its just impractical to impose another counter-intuitive calculation step on people for no advantage whatsoever.
Furthermore SCH K can never be i36, its always the same speed, only requiring one input when in stance. 2_8B+K~SCH K is a sequence and while it *can* be helpful to provide this data to players it is once again not practical for people who want to calculate which move clashes/trades with say SCH K after various transitions - not in comparison to the system already in place.
 
Sacharja im mostly with you on this one however Zombiebear thanks for discovering that 2_8B+K is i25 and all other stance transitions are i20. I didn't know that and its quiet interesting.
 
WEEEEEELLLLL,
After reading your post Sacharja I can see how posting the perminant stance speed of each attack is important but all that I said was I found the data of each move in each stance by incorporating 6*2*4*5B+K (primary stance transitions) into each attack, it's the same data but it's just bigger numbers, and I can see how that can be confusing... a+k[A] is completley different from 2*8B+K, I agree, but we're going to get the same thing out of it... If I use the B+K stance transitions for each attacks standard frame rate, than you can think of a+k[A] and other transitions as shortcuts... And it is indeed 25 frames that seprates our data for Chief Hold etc., I prooved that in my previous post if you read it completley... I have a feeling you skimmed through it, and when I was looking at the frame data you (sacharja) posted I realized we had totally different numbers for the stance attacks and transitions, at the time, etc... I have +21 for
a+k[A] on block, you have -4, the difference is 25 frames, I have i36 for SCH K, you should have i11, the differnece is 25 frames, they are the same thing... I'm only trying to get to the bottom of this...
aG[A]*a:G[A] is bad m'kay...
 
Thats not proving that every stance transition is indeed actually 25 frames. It only works, because youre still working with constant mathematical values you got from working with the same basic transition. So of course the difference between our frame data will be constant (more or less in most cases at least) as well. +21 still makes no sense, because frame data is supposed to be blockstun - recovery. The transition into stance is part of the recovery animation as your arent able to do anything while its being completed. A+K[A] can never be positive on block, because a faster move from the stance will clash with a slower move of your opponent. Once again SCH K is not i36, it never can be. 2_8B+K~SCH K is i36 at its fastest speed, SCH K itself is i11, but those are two different things. I touched that in my last post already, but maybe its you who skimmed over it a little, no offense.
The relation between your moves might be correct, but the math is still totally counterintuitive. I respect your efforts, but I implore you to adapt the format that every other SA is using to avoid confusion.
 
So I'll just subtract 25 frames from all my SCH transitions and 20 frames from all my other stance transitions and the data should match your's, problem solved... I'm pretty sure I did take that into consideration already in some of my posts for Sigs frame data... But if you add 25 frames to a+k[A] and 25 frames to SCH K you still have the same thing... But smaller is better in terms of understanding frames, so I will make corrections where necessary... No offense taken...
 
My personal setup for Siegfried use is:
LT - A+K
RT - B+G
LB - A+B+K+G
RB - A
RB allows you to hit iagA EVERY SINGLE TIME.
LT lets you get the slides in so you can pick which parts of cross combo you want and makes double grounder SO much harder to spot.
RT keeps stance roulette consistant and I find it goes faster, although that may just be me...
 
my setup for sieg:

LT = B+K
LB = A+B
RT = B+G
RB = A+K
square/x = A
cross/a = G
circle/b = K
triangle/y = B
movement = pad

i got extremely small hands so this covers basically all the binds i'd have trouble hitting on my own

RT + RB = CF

the a+kA stuff is also alot easier as u just press RB and square/x fairly quickly together.

LT helps with the stances (yea my hands are so small i can barely press tht properly by myself)

this set even makes workin hilde easy lol CA's = RB and CB's = triangle/Y

for iagA i reccoment lerning it the old way. tht way u dont have to waste a bind on it, and u can get it to come out more consistently than some wild button guessing game. although with this setup u can still agA+B or agA+K, to do aga with classic A/G control setup (for PS its square and triangle, for XBOX its X and A) is a simple rocking motion on the ball of ur thumb. i'll describe what i mean:

step 1: press A with the tip of ur thumb
step 2: rock ur thumb backwards onto the joint and let the joint hit G
step 3: rock ur tumb forwards to tht the tip of ur thumb once again hits A.

i can post a short video tuturial of what im talkin about if its easier to understand visually. but once u get this down to a decent controlled speed, u'll be gettin agA jfs like 80-90% offline, and about 65-80% online(unpredictable due to lag). either way this'll also work up a nice sized callous for those of us who take pride in tht sort of thing ^^

this way u can save ur triggers and bumpers for more useful general button binds so tht u dont JUST have a control set for siggy, as mentioned this also works for hilde, and it works for pretty much every other character i've ever played.
 
My control scheme since Soul Blade PS1 & all the way to SC4:
[] = A
/\ = A
X = B
O = K
R1 = G

that's all

I do everything with my thumb, heheheh.
 
The input is designed for a stick but there is an easy way on the pad to:
Stick: Just slide.
Pad: Set RB/R1 to an input involving A, then slide A, G, RB/R1 real fast.
Simple.
It may waste a bind but it garuntees consistency. Besides, most players have A+K as a bind anyway so just use that if you don't want to tinker with your controls.
 
Synraii said:
The input is designed for a stick but there is an easy way on the pad to:
Stick: Just slide.
Pad: Set RB/R1 to an input involving A, then slide A, G, RB/R1 real fast.
Simple.
It may waste a bind but it garuntees consistency. Besides, most players have A+K as a bind anyway so just use that if you don't want to tinker with your controls.
Click to expand...
This way helps a lot to get the timing down. It seems so easy this way I don't know why I thought it was hard to pull off before :)
 
The motion itself takes a little getting used to, but after that, you'll never find it hard again. =)

Also:

Necro.jpg
 
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